Advanced Rogue build (44+) - please review

[SandDemon]

**edited at bottom**
I've played his build (one posted above) up to about 45, but I'm realizing now how much a little different approach is WAY better. Here's my talents, and why - really, after you hit 44 this is way better.

2 Improved SS
3 Dodge talent
3 Improved Backstab
---------------------
5 Malice
2 Murder
5 Remorseless Attacks
3 Improved Evis
5 Lethality
1 Cold Blood
4 Improved Instant Poison
5 Seal Fate
------------------------------
required level : 47

Now why did I go this instead of big ambush? isn't that better?

Not really and here's why - let's say you're stealthed near a grinding mob - so low armor. You've got a few options:
1) Big ambush - with low armor, I was pulling around 800 an ambush at level 44 - so you have 1 combo point. Sinister strike a few times (you won't have seal fate for a longer time since improved ambush costs 13 talents, so it's gonna be awhile before you eviserate) then eviserate.
OR
2) Cheapshot - 2 combo points and it's stunned, so you're not taking damage. Backstab for around 400 - with remorseless, you're gonna have 4 combo points (yes, 4 - Seal Fate is broken now, so use it while ya can :twisted: ). One sinister strike and tada, you have a 5pt evis BEFORE IT UNSTUNS. Later levels, eviserate is a majority of your damage and it's just simple to realize that I'll have taken less damage (it's stunned and I have the dodge talent), and done more damage faster. You want to be spiffy, you can 5pt Kidney shot and backstab it twice (if you wait for kidney until you have full energy) before it unstuns...then eviserate for 5pt.

Granted prior to Seal Fate, I had the improved Ambush line and I liked it but once you get the new backstab at 44 and can get Seal Fate - it's a world of difference. Also a nice bonus, is in instances or in groups, you backstab WAY more than you ambush - and against heavy armor mobs, this build can get to 5pt Evis faster.

I'll probably take this build up to this at 60 and see how it goes:
Improved Gouge Rank 3
Improved Sinister Strike Rank 2
Lightning Reflexes Rank 5
Improved Backstab Rank 3
Deflection Rank 2
Dagger Specialization Rank 5
Blade Flurry Rank 1
Combat Total: 21
mproved Eviscerate Rank 3
Remorseless Attacks Rank 5
Malice Rank 5
Murder Rank 2
Lethality Rank 5
Improved Instant Poison Rank 4
Cold Blood Rank 1
Seal Fate Rank 5
Assassination Total: 30

Why you ask? Well, I may not have the nice ambush, but with maxxed out crits (+dagger crit, +malice, etc), seal fate, and blade furry+improved instant poison+slice,improved backstabs, I'm going to be one crazy DPS monster and great for instances and just pure damage.

Have any of you tried this out? I'm finding it a lot better for soloing since I take significantly less damage upfront and deal more with the 5pt evis then the difference between backstab/ambush anyways. Also if that ambush misses, I can still gouge/backstab a lot for quicker points.

**Edited**
Improved Gouge Rank 3
Improved Sinister Strike Rank 2
Lightning Reflexes Rank 1
Improved Backstab Rank 3
Deflection Rank 5
Riposte Rank 1
Dagger Specialization Rank 5
Combat Total: 20

I've actually decided I'd go like this instead in the combat line - why? Well, adding dodge is nice but in pvp - overpower is really painful :) I'd rather parry and disarm that warrior/rogue - and adding parry over dodge really isn't that big of a deal. You'll notice though I have 1 pt in Lightning reflexes - debating on moving that to improved kick just so I can silence the random mage/mob 50% of the time.

[Kintoun]

My Hybrid build basically.

PVE: I found that cheapshot + crit backstab came pretty close to the same damage as crit ambush (including the extra combo point)

PVP: I find myself cursing myself when I open with 65% crit ambush and it DOESN'T crit. It essentally costs 8 talent points to get that 65% (opp and imp amb). Opportunity by itself isn't that hot as it basrely adds any damage considering it costs 5 pts. I now often find myself wanting the 100% crit ambush and so burn my coldblood for that ambush.

So the Hybrid Build (like the sword build, but uses daggers) was created, and most likely, I'll be using that build. I drop imp amb, opp, camo, and gain blade flurry, 5% dagger crit, riposte, and 5% parry.

[phor]

PVE: I found that cheapshot + crit backstab came pretty close to the same damage as crit ambush (including the extra combo point)

but that leaves you with no energy and about 1 second of stun left.

Whereas you could ambush(40 energy left), get one tick(60), gouge(15), get three ticks(75 AND they're stunned the entire time), backstab(15), get one tick(35), evis(0).
there's very few times when this sequence doesn't kill the mobs i grind on (about equal level casters)
also if you get a crit on bs or evis then you won't even get hit during this sequence(if you're grinding on mages the gouge stops their cast and you don't get hit at all), and you can start using it as low as level 30 to grind through mobs. (though it just gets better as you add to it after that.)

i'll probably end up with something like this at 53:

Subtlety Mastery
Camouflage Rank 5
Opportunity Rank 5
Initiative Rank 5
Improved Ambush Rank 3
Subtlety Total: 18

Combat Mastery
Improved Gouge Rank 3
Lightning Reflexes Rank 2
Improved Backstab Rank 3
Combat Total: 8

Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate Rank 3
Remorseless Attacks Rank 5
Malice Rank 5
Lethality Rank 5
Assassination Total: 18
Total
Total Points Spent: 44
Level Required: 53

I don't know how it would be possible to grind through mobs faster.
after the first mob, remorseless makes your ambush 100% crit, and since you gouge instantly after ambush (to stun them as well as regain energy), the only way you get hit more than once or twice per fight is when you miss your ambush or bs or evis, which doesn't happen very often.

this build is solely for pve grinding.

contact me on archimonde if you think i'm a moron, or a genius, or just to chat about strategy.

that's my 2 cents.[/quote]

[SandDemon]

Well here's the thing. I'm level 50 now and a respec is gonna cost me around 25g :-/
So let's debate about this some before I try it :)

Worst case with Initiative with your build:
Crit Ambush with 1cp (1k)
Gouge for another cp
Backstab for another cp (250)
And you say evis for 3cp (300)
= 1550 damage

Worst case with my build (non-crit backstab and no coldblood):
Cheapshot for 2cp
Backstab for 1cp (250)
Gouge for 1cp
Backstab for 1cp (250)
Evis for 5cp (500)
= 1000 damage

Bese case scenario with your build:
Crit Ambush for 2cp (1k)
Gouge for 1cp
Crit backstab for 1cp (700)
Evis for (800)
=2500 damage

Base case scenario with my build:
Cheapshot for 2cp
Crit backstab for 2cp (3 now with bug) (700)
Coldblood evis (1k)
=1700 damage

Now both cases you're doing more damage. But let's say for sanitys sake, that you miss a backstab or gouge or ambush (it happens). In your build, no improved sinister strike or coldblood for an "crap, well let's use this" ability - so you're left to either spam sinister strike at a real bad rate of 3s each. While my build, I can spam sinister strike at 2s each and a crit will land me 2cp instead of one.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking your build. I actually like the idea, I'm just worried about it missing and trying to survive.

On a side note for grinding, I dont know if Initiative is what I'd go with. 75% is great for an extra cp, but it only affects your ambush and isn't totally reliable. I'd rather go with this, considering level 51.

Camouflage Rank 5
Opportunity Rank 5
Improved Ambush Rank 3
Subtlety Total: 13

Improved Gouge Rank 3
Lightning Reflexes Rank 2
Improved Backstab Rank 3
Combat Total: 8

Improved Eviscerate Rank 3
Remorseless Attacks Rank 5
Malice Rank 5
Murder Rank 2
Lethality Rank 5
Cold Blood Rank 1
Assassination Total: 21

Total Points Spent: 42
Level Required: 51

This way you're guaranteed a better chance to hit your ambush (which is your big whammy stick) and you're guaranteed a crit evis or backstab every 3 minutes (which speeds your grinding a lot - especially for when ya miss an ambush).

My char is level 50 right now so I'm not sure I'll respec just yet (want that coldblood at 51, love that ability ), especially since seal fate is still bugged with cheapshot+imp. backstab being 5cp...not sure I wanna let go of that so quickly :)

Also the occasional instance or grouping is better in my build, since if they can hold aggro (which is rare...damn idiot tanks) I can go to town with imp backstab + sealfate happiness.

If ya dont mind me asking, where did ya grind at 50? Tanaris ogres are too little and I haven't found a nice...squishy caster spot yet to take me to 60.

[SandDemon]

Also one more thing to consider, if and when I get Devilsaur gear and anything else that gives +crit amount, Seal Fate becomes that much more useful - I'd essentially be getting twice the cp than you.

But ya, that gear usually comes after grinding is over and ya start instances...which is when you can afford to respect :)

[Dreadlordx]

Hello to everyone,
I have been reading these boards for quite some time and i really appreciate all the great infos i always find here. The reason why i finally decided to post is because i would like to ask the rogues that visit this board a question, and i think it sort of fits this current discussion.
In the build i am planing (pretty much copied from the Kintourn Hybrid build....BTW Kintourn MAD PROPS for all your work/posts/infos) i will have pretty much the same Assasination build to get Seal of Fate, but there is just 1 question I am wondering about in the Combat line....most of you go for Deflection 5/5 Riposte 1/1 Dagger Mastery Specialization 5/5 Blade Fury 1/1.; the reasons behind this choice appear pretty obvious, now what i would like to ask is what makes this talent choice a better one then going Precision 5/5 Dual Wield 5/5 and then Blade Fury, dropping Deflection Riposte and Dagger Mastery.
The Reason I am asking this question is because the first option gives me better parrying 5% gives me an extra trick that disarms my opponent for 6 secs and 5% extra crit chance when using daggers; the second option on the other hand makes me hit 5% more often but increases my offhand weapon damage by, what at least seems to me, a HUGE 50% every single swing. In addition even though Riposte seems a great tool generally speaking, in a group PvP scenario I don't see myself using it THAT much since most likely I will be either in the Assist Train, or trying to take down Soft targets like Priests and Mages. Obviosuly in 1vs1 the deflection/Riposte option is the better one Hands Down, but since my impression was we were talking about Group PvP Builds, i was really wondering what is the reasoning behind 5% extra parry, Riposte, + 5% extra Crits, Over the 5% more hits +50% more damage from off hand.
Thanks in advance to all of those that will be kinf enough to answer my question, and once again big THANK YOU to nurfed for this Forum.

P.S. I am not American so pls bear with my incorrect english...
P.P.S. European Retail is approaching so i am really trying to capitalize on my final build :)

[SandDemon]

Well for one, dual wield mastery is a waste - offhand damage is subpar anyways.
Two, dagger mastery raises your crit% for ALL abilities that use a dagger - and Seal Fate works off of crits. So you crit more with everything, which gives more combo points...thus the point of it. Blade furry is just a nice bonus, and the riposte/parry line is the only decent combat talents to pick at that point

[Ralrra]

Also people try to design builds that are viable for group but still have some nice perks for 1v1.

[SandDemon]

Well I sucked it up and paid the 20g for a respec to try it out....and well, here's the results and feedback for those interested.

1) Damn does Oppurtunity help or what - just in backstabs it makes a whopping difference. I used to be able to backstab in instances for like 300 damage, but can easily land 500 now on pretty heavy armored elites.

2) Capped out at a 1018 ambush last night, and that's with my crappy Gharzilla dagger. I miss my frontloaded damage.

3) When fighting Tanaris ogres...well, it's about the same kill rate. Why? One, I dont' have coldblood yet (not until 51) and ogres that have armor now....makes frontloaded damage a bit hard to "finish the job". I can knock an ogre down to half or quarter life after the eviserate...but at that point I have no energy and no improved sinister strike to make some cp quick. I'm debating if I should work up Subtley after coldblood to get improved rupture and improved sap - it'll help fighting armored mobs and players, plus 1cp rupture is the same damage as 5cp rupture - so when this combo finsihes, I can generate just 1cp quick and rupture to keep the damage coming. Although, if ruptured...I can't gouge. Nah, scratch that. Seal Fate it is, I guess.

4) Know any good locations for "squishes" now adays? Phor said he fought casters at his level, and I'm really curious where you did that. In the 50s, Ogres just aren't cutting it these days I guess - can anyone give an insight to some last juicy leveling spots?

5) In ZulFarrak last night (damn I hate that place), we had a solid warrior tank (a complete rarity) and it was nice to be able to either ambush and backstab or backstab twice right in a row - seeing 160dps or higher is nice :)

[phor]

there are "Firegut Ogre Mages" on the eastern side of burning steppes.
they're 51-52

54-57 deadwind ogre mage
south east corner of deadwind pass

those are just a couple spots.


Also the occasional instance or grouping is better in my build, since if they can hold aggro (which is rare...damn idiot tanks) I can go to town with imp backstab + sealfate happiness.

like i said, my build was purely for grinding mage type mobs. and it is very good at it's job. :D

[Rhade]

I currently use a combat heavy build, and I have to say it is the best build i have used to far. Mace specilization + bladeflurry and Adren rush is just amazing in pvp, and in PvE i can hold a very high amount of dps with SS spam. I used to use a assas/combat backstab crit build(assas to seal fate then minor combat stuff like imp backstab) and I have to say, my combat build far exceeds it. It isnt because I had a bad dagger too, because I had a semi-decent one.

[SandDemon]

Since you guys have been nice, gonna let you in on a REAL nice place to rank from 51-54.

Bloodelf mages and Hippos in northern Azshara - it's insanely easy. The level 54 casters I can solo without getting hit at ALL and I'm only 51. They drop runecloth, you can steal heavy junkboxes, and nice money.
Also super squishy - hello 1k Ambush

[Halicon]

SandDemon, did you respec from your first build? I played with your build to 37, and really enjoyed my groupability compared to my earlier ambush spec.
Thing is, I have decided for this build in eu retail, and if something is wrong, I want to know. :)
But to take a chance and discuss your first build, how do you feel it performs in pvp/instance groups? I felt a huge lacking part of compability with my solo amb spec, hence the reason for dropping it.

[Andvarion]

So you're saying Imp Backstab is better than Imp Ambush?

Does that mean I should respec out of Ambush and into Initiative to go with Imp BS? Or shoudl I keep Imp Ambush and get BS too? Or Initiative instead of BS?

So complicated. =(

[Halicon]

Andvarian, in my head it's like this: bs= pvp, amb= pve. There is no way you will be able to keep up the tempo of a pvp-group and at the same time use amb effectively. That's why I dropped amb, and went for this hybrid spec, as I feel it's got everything I need for pvp.
On a sidenote, it's possible to burn coldblood and amb, if you really need the "damage".

edit: Forgot to ask a question. SandDemon, what is your thought on Instant Poison and pvp? As I rarely use instant in pvp, rather crippling. Wouldn't it be better to drop those points into ruthlessness (even if it sucks)?

[SandDemon]

Lemme see if I can summarize my answers to all of you.

Ambush/Oppurtunity is necessary for PvE solo grinding and very nice for PvP damage.
Backstab is necessary for PvE grouping, very nice for soloing and necessary for PvP damage.

I'm about to ding 52 (putting it off while she gathers some rested experience) and I'm using his 30/8/13 build right now. Think I actually have 21/8/13 - so I have coldblood plus the backstab/ambush lines. I think really it's a toss up of whats better, pure backstab/sealfate or ambush/backstab. The reason why I say this is because of the following situation.

If you're fighting casters, or npcs with low health/armor, ambush/backstab is gold. Right now with my crappy dagger I can knock a blood-elf mage to about 30% in 2 hits. But if you miss...you're up the creek with the paddle in your ass.
If you're fighting anything else, backstab/sealfate is gold. I could have a 5pt eviserate ready before they unstunned from cheapshot.

Essentially, if the majority of your damage is going to be eviserate, then go seal fate. If the majority of your damage is going to be burst (and enough to finish the mob quickly), get the ambush/backstab build.

By the time I hit 60, I'll be a 30/8/13 build - seal fate, coldblood, backstab/ambush...it's going to be great :)

[Andvarion]

I didn't know Seal Fate was the questionable aspect. I think the only choice comes with choosing two of these three: Imp BS, Imp Ambush, and Initiative.

THAT is a hard choice, I think, because you can't do all 3 yet any combination of two would be amazing.

[Halicon]

I'm with you now, and let me just say.. wow, that build is awesome by the looks of it, didn't really bother checking any deeper before, but when I did..
I assume you are using kintouns dagger crit build? How is survivability compared to your original build? I'm really leaning towards this build now, as you will keep the huge ambushes, and still be able to switch to a more frontlined tactic in pvp (lacking riposte and 5% parry).
On a sidenote, what use is it specing for amb if you never use it? Argh, this is too much.. Maybe i'll stick with your original spec.
You still haven't answered why you respeced btw. :)

[Andvarion]

You're with who now, me?

[Halicon]

Well, if you want me to? Was talking to SandDemon. :wink:

[Andvarion]

Oh I don't mind, I was just wanting some feedback on the choice between Initiative/BS/Ambush. Not Seal Fate, that's a given.

[SandDemon]

My exact build right now is 21/8/13, because I like the big ambushes/backstabs - more than Seal Fate atm. Why? Well I solo grind quite a bit and in instances I group with people that are smart enough to allow me to ambush (let me hide, pull, then WHAM).

In solo grinding, I'm learning that Seal Fate isn't as good as a huge Initiative/Ambush - why? Well, let's say you use Seal Fate.

Open with Cheapshot for 2cp
Backstab for 3cp (current bug)
Eviserate for 5cp
That's roughly (300-700)+(500-900) =800-1200 damage and then the mob wakes up.

With ambush...

Open with Crit Ambush
Gouge
Wait a few secs, Backstab
Gouge
Wait a few secs, Backstab
Eviserate for 5cp
That's roughly 1k+(300-700)+(300-700)+(500-900)= 2100-3300 damage and then the mob gets to swing at ya.

Notice the huge difference? Only problem, is the crit ambush build takes a bit longer - but for most of it the mob is gouged. They really are very similar, just the ambush build does a lot more spike damage compared to Seal Fate.

If you were to compare their damage over time, Seal Fate, would look like this (think numbers is height, so 0 is low, 9 is high):
058222822282228 - cheapshot, backstab, evis, ss, ss, ss, evis, etc
While the ambush line is:
9050580505 - ambush, gouge, backstab, gouge, backstab, gouge, backstab, evis, etc.

It depends on what ya fight - if you're fighting armored guys, use Seal Fate. If you're fighting "squishes" use Ambush. It's really basic guys - the only thing you have to worry about is your final build. Do you want 30/8/13 or 30/21/0?

[Gorlab]

1) Damn does Oppurtunity help or what - just in backstabs it makes a whopping difference. I used to be able to backstab in instances for like 300 damage, but can easily land 500 now on pretty heavy armored elites.

I would suggest double checking your #s with logging. Going from 300ish to 500ish damage is a 66% increase. IE either opportunity is bugged, something else changed in addition, or you are reading/remembering the #s wrong.

[Andvarion]

Wow I'm dumb. This whole time I was wondering the best combo of Initiative/BS/Ambush, when it isn't even possible to get Seal Fate + Imp BS + Initiative.

That narrows down the options then thankfully... Either:


* (30/8/13) Seal Fate / Imp BS / Imp Ambush (i.e. Kintoun's Dagger Crit)

or

* (30/2/18) Seal Fate / Imp SS / Imp Ambush + Initiative (1pt left over)

Of those two, the second seems better to me. Just pick up a nice mace/sword, and throw the remaining point in Vigor or Ghostly Strike. Which of those two would be better? Vigor seems useless, whereas extra dodge and a combo point could never hurt. Ghostly Strike for the win?

[SandDemon]

1) Damn does Oppurtunity help or what - just in backstabs it makes a whopping difference. I used to be able to backstab in instances for like 300 damage, but can easily land 500 now on pretty heavy armored elites.

I would suggest double checking your #s with logging. Going from 300ish to 500ish damage is a 66% increase. IE either opportunity is bugged, something else changed in addition, or you are reading/remembering the #s wrong.

Well, it's a 20% increase on the initial damage, not the final damage. I'll have to check exactly when I can finally get back on my f-ing server (Damn you Blizzard!), but it's pretty close. 1.2 * 1.8 = 2.16. Normally it'd be 1.8 so 2.16 - 1.8 = 36%. Not 66%, but still a lot. I'm going off memory with little sleep since I haven't played in a few days my rogue :P

[Halicon]

Very nice way of putting it SandDemon, you hardly ever see anyone taking their time to explain something that thoroughly. :)
But as my build will ge geared towards 99% pvp, gouge really isn't an option in full-scale combat. I think I will go with the hybrid, at least it benefits my style more. I can still burn cold blood for the amb on cloth, but can go to school with riposte, blade fury, 5% parry and 5% dagger spec.

[Gorlab]

Well, it's a 20% increase on the initial damage, not the final damage. I'll have to check exactly when I can finally get back on my f-ing server (Damn you Blizzard!), but it's pretty close. 1.2 * 1.8 = 2.16. Normally it'd be 1.8 so 2.16 - 1.8 = 36%. Not 66%, but still a lot. I'm going off memory with little sleep since I haven't played in a few days my rogue :P

Backstab is 150% dmg + static # depending on level. At 60 its 250% + 210...the 1.8 is after opportunity is already applied.

Regardless that is irrelevant, in your post you ascribe your increase in BS damage from 300 to 500 to opportunity. That is a 66% increase in damage using your own numbers, that is what I was referring to.

[SandDemon]

I'm mostly concerned about PvE for the time being, since I'm not 60 yet. If you're going for PvP, gouge still has the nice use of stopping spells and semi-stopping someone for awhile. Gouge+flee is popular.

Oh and can I start bragging about my new dagger? :twisted:
http://thottbot.com/?i=11935

Just got it...freaking expensive (99g), but eh, can't beat that 80 max damage for my level (52)

[Halicon]

I would like some feedback on how viable riposte is in pvp? As I only played my rogue to 37, I didn't get any chance to try it out.
Right now I'm judging the differences between the hybrid, and the dagger crit build. Is riposte, blade fury, 5% parry, 5% dagger crit and 1% dodge really worth sacrificing 15% stealth movement, 20% backstab and amb dmg and finally 40% amb crit?

I see blade fury as a little "bonus" from specing combat, so this leaves me with riposte, just exactly how viable is it?

[phor]

by "giving up" subtlety, you simply change your roll in the group.

you severly gimp your chances of being able to sneak up on their mages/priests/warlocks, and take them down with huge dmg bursts..

BUT at the same time, you make yourself MUCH more able to take on their front liners (war/pld/other rogues/etc.)

as for riposte, it rapes if you're getting hit by a melee character. It procs pretty often in pvp if you're fighting melee head on

it will proc at least once every 10 seconds you are engaged in a melee battle..
the disarm is fantastic, it prevents them from doing a ton of dmg and only costs 10 energy too

Example:
you're fighting a rogue that has just gotten 5 combo pts on you, and used coldblood, you disarm him, he can't use evis.
Or you're fighting war and he's been building up rage in order to execute you when you get low.. you're apporaching 20% health, you disarm him, he's helpless for 6 seconds.

There is also a bug that allows you to disarm any target of your choice after you parry, you don't have to disarm the person you actually parried, which means you could technically save teammates by disarming their assailants, even if their attackers weren't the one you parried. (the bug is pretty situational in practice, but if used intelligently, it can be VERY useful)

So you basically just need to choose how you want to play:
sneak in back, kill a caster, and flee(most times you have to flee back to your group because they dot you so you can't stealth)
or go head on with their frontliners.

[Halicon]

Thank you, you pretty much answered all my questions. The reasons why I'm choosing hybrid, is because stealth is too good to give up. I don't want to completely remove my chances of bringing down cloth in seconds, if I burn coldblood, the damage should still be pretty high, and considering the evis afterwards. Well, wouldn't make that huge a difference?

Thing is, I felt a huge lack in groupability with kintouns pve spec, I don't know how I would see the situation with cb and seal fate, but I had to respec in order to benefit my guild better. It's possible that the 30/8/13 build will give you enough offensive power. Which is my main concern.

[Gorlab]

Example:
you're fighting a rogue that has just gotten 5 combo pts on you, and used coldblood, you disarm him, he can't use evis.

Cold blood doesn't have a duration, it stays activated until used.

[phor]

yes it does, but he also can't use it for 6 seconds, which gives you plenty of time to kill him or get away.

(and wow.. way to nit pick posts)