A discussion of MMOs, does it really take skill?

[Shotai]

So Otherguy put out his latest movie, Sorrow Hill 6( http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=18622 ). Now in my opinion this kid is decent at best and is in no way the legend everyone is making him out to be. I read through the comments and its like a flame thread in there going back and forth with people saying he's skilled, he's not skilled, I'm better than he is, then getting flamed for it.

Personally I'm alot better than the guy and I can think of serveral mages that are as well just from my server, but really, if you put everyone in their blue sets with blue weapons and everyone is on equal ground then you can see where the skill is at without all the overpowered epics that come with high-end raid dungeons. Some people say video games take skill, some say they don't. I say they do to an extent because you can have one person(lolkeyboardturning) that is horrible then another that brings out some serious domination(note: all in blue gear no 1 shots).

It makes me wonder though, why do some people absolutely suck ass at this game and others so good? I mean I can't possible keyboard turn, its just too slow, I have to use the mouse. Maybe that preference and style came from when I played FPS, because I did the same thing in DAoC.

I dunno, I guess what I'm really trying to say is... does goat cheese really taste that bad? Discuss, and take a look at those comments they are pretty priceless. =P


P.S. - In case you havn't seen this yet, Saerdna 3 vid with 24 fire/27 frost build, its what I am. =D http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=14360

[Isaac]

Yes, MMO's (like all games) require skill.

Decision making and reaction time are two very important skills in all sports and competitive games, and they defintely apply to WoW. And while WoW doesn't require the hand-eye coordinatino that say playing competitive Quake or Counter-strike required me to have, my ability to focus and make quick, sound decisions in a timely manner and then execute is still critical.

That said, WoW requires less skill than many other MMO's to a degree in my opinion. I feel this is largely due to the fact that WoW is in many ways less ability oriented and more consumable and gear oriented. Therefore, success is heavily influenced by time invested farming gear, raising tradeskills, and so forth rather than what combination of spells or attacks I use to defeat an opponent.

My preference is that the gear or potions or engineering toys at my disposal function more along the lines of perks rather than a my sole means of success. The abilities I use, the decisions I make, and my ability to position, predict, and react should be what makes the difference in taking down Princess Huhuran; not a Greater Nature Resistance Potion and a Flask of the Titans.

By comparison, in Everquest I certainly felt like I could contribute on an individual level in a significant, outcome altering manner much more often than WoW. Core game play and encounter mechanics had a lot to do with, and the fact that I had tons of spells and advancement abilities at my disposal did too.

[Ziot]

24 fire/27 frost build

Sounds dumb

[Sintor]

Yes, MMO's (like all games) require skill.

Decision making and reaction time are two very important skills in all sports and competitive games, and they defintely apply to WoW. And while WoW doesn't require the hand-eye coordinatino that say playing competitive Quake or Counter-strike required me to have, my ability to focus and make quick, sound decisions in a timely manner and then execute is still critical.

That said, WoW requires less skill than many other MMO's to a degree in my opinion. I feel this is largely due to the fact that WoW is in many ways less ability oriented and more consumable and gear oriented. Therefore, success is heavily influenced by time invested farming gear, raising tradeskills, and so forth rather than what combination of spells or attacks I use to defeat an opponent.

My preference is that the gear or potions or engineering toys at my disposal function more along the lines of perks rather than a my sole means of success. The abilities I use, the decisions I make, and my ability to position, predict, and react should be what makes the difference in taking down Princess Huhuran; not a Greater Nature Resistance Potion and a Flask of the Titans.

By comparison, in Everquest I certainly felt like I could contribute on an individual level in a significant, outcome altering manner much more often than WoW. Core game play and encounter mechanics had a lot to do with, and the fact that I had tons of spells and advancement abilities at my disposal did too.

More than three buttons per class to use, Auto-attack not the greatest source of damage, no global cooldown bullshit, and a host of other things strive to suck the good players down in with the mediocre. How good does a hunter with a crossbow of smiting or a warrior with Askhandi have to be? Not that good and he will still look just like the guy with skills. That was about PvP.

PvE is pretty god damn simple in WoW, the only thing you actually fight are bugs and scripts... and bugged scripts... well, that and scripted bugs...

The most telling part of the wow "skill" bar is that people are 90% of the time doing something else WHILE they play wow actively. I'm not talking about reading a book while you med in EQ, I'm talking about actively exp'ing/raiding while browsing forums while playing a console game while talking on the phone.

[Nemico]

This late in a game "skills" really doesn't influnce gameplay much.. everyone got their templates and basic responses to everything. Of course there are the ones who will always suck but that doesnt mean the rest are skilled.

First few months there would always be skilled players who cought on quickly and fought well before the cookie-cutter fight patterns sunk in.

Every now and then skill will come into play in terms of pvp tactics and teamplay though, such as roaming 5v5 when you dont know what class setup you will meet etc. Duels have become totally retarded, and 5v5 arena fights are dying also..

[Otzo]

Sounds dumb

Elemental is quite fun but lacks Mana, Presence of Mind and so on. :P but since Arcane power keeps getting nerfed alot of people are speccing 21 arc/30 fire or elemental. ^^

[SandDemon]

More than three buttons per class to use, Auto-attack not the greatest source of damage, no global cooldown bullshit, and a host of other things strive to suck the good players down in with the mediocre. How good does a hunter with a crossbow of smiting or a warrior with Askhandi have to be? Not that good and he will still look just like the guy with skills. That was about PvP.

PvE is pretty god damn simple in WoW, the only thing you actually fight are bugs and scripts... and bugged scripts... well, that and scripted bugs...

The most telling part of the wow "skill" bar is that people are 90% of the time doing something else WHILE they play wow actively. I'm not talking about reading a book while you med in EQ, I'm talking about actively exp'ing/raiding while browsing forums while playing a console game while talking on the phone.

Couldn't agree more.

[Jedus]

The most telling part of the wow "skill" bar is that people are 90% of the time doing something else WHILE they play wow actively. I'm not talking about reading a book while you med in EQ, I'm talking about actively exp'ing/raiding while browsing forums while playing a console game while talking on the phone.

Shit I've been exposed. Sorry I like watching TV and chatting on IRC while playing WoW.

[Skunkworks]

Seems to me that although part of wow is definetly based upon skill, the majority of fights are decided by gear and luck. Having the right strat and effectively managing your characters ability, along with timing and reaction are all crucial skills. However, your gear simply improves your chances of landing lethal crits or resisting spells, or having that extra thousand HP to outlast your opponent. The RNG is god in the end, and decides a great deal of fights (warrior duels anyone?). Ever play blackjack against someone with only half a deck at thier disposal? Kinda like running into someone in all greens, if you catch my drift.

[keboman]

WoW takes skill. So does rock, paper, scissors.

[Sintor]

Shit I've been exposed. Sorry I like watching TV and chatting on IRC while playing WoW.

Ponder this: Should you need to seek other forms of entertainment WHILE playing a game?

[sajko]

the only thing you actually fight are bugs and scripts... and bugged scripts... well, that and scripted bugs...

I lol'ed. :(

[Ghostridah]

the only skill you need in wow is showing up to a raid on time

ps- sintor sucks at pressing 1 and 2

[Rekuul']

And yet ghostridah manages to hit only 1, which is bound to drain life.

[Shakkha77]

Well gear does a lot of difference, however let's not talk about AQ Guild vs PuG PvP.

When you are fighting AQ Guild vs AQ Guild in PvP, then sure skill takes back its importance.

The problem is to define skill.
For pvp i'd say it is mostly, experience, knowledge, quick thinking and reaction, good targeting moving, and mostly teamplay and coordination.

A mediocre playing nicely gear can do ok.ish, but nowadays more and more people are getting decked in epics, so the gear gap is getting less big.

For PvE, Wow isn't really easier than Eq was to be honest, i watched TV while grinding in Sebilis, just as i do while running instances. It is actually more active, since in wow you need to move all the time. I spent days at the same exact spot in Eq getting xp or aa, just using one key 99% of the time (Complete Healing).

The main difference is that Eq at it starts was a bit boggling, there was little to no explanation on what the effects or spell did. People had to try by themselves and learn on the go.

There was no site explaining the dungeon, where to go, what to do, what level they are, where do items drop etc. All this knowledge made a big difference between players.

Whereas before Wow was officially released, they were already tons of sites like thottbot all over the place, or forums full of information and advices giving away everything.

I think it is mostly a matter of time, every future game will be like Wow, that is with all information available, and therefore easy to play.


On a side note, what is that add-on that shows the target cast bar in otherguy video?

[Rekuul']

God I wish. SM RUIN PEW PEW KACHOO!!!!!!!

R.I.P CoS MegaCritz(TM)

-Rek

[Xaos]

I use this simple test: when you watch a game footage, how often do you think to yourself: "omg, this guy's skilled, I could never do it" and how often is it: "nice gear, giev!111!". The more limitations, the less place for skill, WOW is very limited IMHO (by cooldowns, gear, RNG, etc).

[Sintor]

Well gear does a lot of difference, however let's not talk about AQ Guild vs PuG PvP.

When you are fighting AQ Guild vs AQ Guild in PvP, then sure skill takes back its importance.

The problem is to define skill.
For pvp i'd say it is mostly, experience, knowledge, quick thinking and reaction, good targeting moving, and mostly teamplay and coordination.

A mediocre playing nicely gear can do ok.ish, but nowadays more and more people are getting decked in epics, so the gear gap is getting less big.

For PvE, Wow isn't really easier than Eq was to be honest, i watched TV while grinding in Sebilis, just as i do while running instances. It is actually more active, since in wow you need to move all the time. I spent days at the same exact spot in Eq getting xp or aa, just using one key 99% of the time (Complete Healing).

The main difference is that Eq at it starts was a bit boggling, there was little to no explanation on what the effects or spell did. People had to try by themselves and learn on the go.

There was no site explaining the dungeon, where to go, what to do, what level they are, where do items drop etc. All this knowledge made a big difference between players.

Whereas before Wow was officially released, they were already tons of sites like thottbot all over the place, or forums full of information and advices giving away everything.

I think it is mostly a matter of time, every future game will be like Wow, that is with all information available, and therefore easy to play.


On a side note, what is that add-on that shows the target cast bar in otherguy video?


I never really watched TV while raiding in Everquest, similarly when I camped a spot I would watch TV in the downtime, which I explained earlier wasn't what I was talking about. While you are actively "playing" your character in WoW, you are free to do a million other things and you won't even appear subpar. In eq2 if I looked away for a minute I would plummet on the dps chart and with a cap of 24 people, it shows.

EQ didn't have instances when it started, so saying that you don't move around a lot is misleading. Were you to go back and do LDON, you would have an instance to clear instead of waiting on a camp to repop.

AQ guild vs AQ guild is almost based purely on luck these days. Oh your trinket mage asploded my priest instantly, oh your crossbow hunter instagibbed my trinket mage, oh your askhandi warrior ... etc. Survivability isn't scaling with gear.

[Jedus]

Yeah. Exactly why I dont take PVP in this game seriously. It's Unreal Tournament Powerups galore. I'd go out on a limb and say PVE in this game is beginning require more skill than PVP. The PVE is getting better though it still gets boring for me. I prefer the 20 man instances and quick raids like Onyxia. I'm really excited about Naxx in 1.11 mainly because I like the Undead story.

[Soruss]

WoW certainly takes skill, but randomness and gear downplay it. I can think of many things I do to give me an edge in PvP that take a certain amount of knowledge or timing that most players probably don't have. In fact most players would probably never look at the game in a way that allows them to come up with that type of strategy. But fuckload of good that does me when a mage AP+pom+pyroblast -> fireblast instant kills me.

[Shotai]

So how bout that Saerdna vid? Anyone see it? My prefered spec before was arc/frost but that definately makes me wanna go elemental.

[Fervent]

The most telling part of the wow "skill" bar is that people are 90% of the time doing something else WHILE they play wow actively. I'm not talking about reading a book while you med in EQ, I'm talking about actively exp'ing/raiding while browsing forums while playing a console game while talking on the phone.

I play NCAA Football 06 during almost all raids and I still get top 5 dps on my warrior. I have gone through a whole season during 1 BWL raid @_@

Skill in wow is all about reaction speed. How fast can you break the fear or get off your execute? Healing takes a little more know how in PvP but in PvE its a joke.

[SandDemon]

HA, NCAA football? I played an entire game of Nintendo Techmo Bowl on my emulator in the same screen during an MC run

[Nous]

HA, NCAA football? I played an entire game of Nintendo Techmo Bowl on my emulator in the same screen during an MC run

Who'd u use? The Bears were crazy in that game.

[Ghostridah]

Nous remember that time i crushed you in tekken5? yep rape 5-0

[Pirotess]

WoW didn't take much skill from when I played it, granted I haven't played it since about 2 months or so after release. There were bad choices made by Blizzard as to class design, imo, and a lot of that was to balance PVE rather than PVP. There are some things I think should remain constant in MMOs, or even if you want to make a variation in terms of who gets what, that entails dps, armor, HP, mana etc. Blizzard didn't really balance that well amongst the various classes early on in the game. Beyond that, I hated EQ for the reason of it being raid oriented. In DAoC, if you had a group to group and a half of competent players with the right class mix, RAs etc you could do just about any encounter you'd really want to, with a few exceptions. In EQ, and now WoW, epic raids where you just need to zerg encounters is becoming standard and I hope the trend ends with WoW.

WoW's highly item dependant as well as not needing the same general awareness, positioning, and reflexes involved with other MMOs, nevermind FPS games

[Tivoli]

Well, you can't really zerg the encounters in WoW like you could in old EQ because the raid cap is 40, so the encounters are tuned for 40 or whatever the cap for that instance. EQ had 100+ person raids to kill some of the bosses, some killed with less some with more but it's harder to tune content when you don't control the amount of people on the raid.

There is skill needed in WoW, not just gear, gear helps you with killing people, but skill is a group that protects their healers (warrior hamstring, hunter scatter shot, etc), or adjusting mid fight to win a point, etc.

[SandDemon]

Who'd u use? The Bears were crazy in that game.

Bears and the Raiders - both teams awesome in that game that you'd never seen anywhere near the end in real life nowadays :)

[Carnie]

Well, you can't really zerg the encounters in WoW like you could in old EQ because the raid cap is 40, so the encounters are tuned for 40 or whatever the cap for that instance. EQ had 100+ person raids to kill some of the bosses, some killed with less some with more but it's harder to tune content when you don't control the amount of people on the raid.

True but the people on that server would *slat* guild's egoes by snitching on them about how many they had at a fight. The players outside the guild, the people with honor inside the guild, and lag regulated how many players guilds used at an encounter.

MMOs have evolved and WoW definately has some fun endgame encounters but the good ole days of EQ were much more fun for me. But Im sure that is due to the fact that it was my first 3D MMORPG. If WoW was my first MMO Im sure I would be just as addicted as I was to EQ.

[Crosse]

Organization and coordination are always the determining factors in success for MMOs, I like the team aspect that doesn't require purely skill to win like UT. I also don't enjoy (not all the time anyway) the twitch CS style team games which leave no room for error. I liked DAoC team pvp the best, imo no game has made it better.

[WindiaN]

I would just like to dispel the rumor that otherguy is good having played with him in lineage 2 (possibly the easiest most mind numbing game around especially back when he played) on gustin. He is one of the largest pussies i've ever encountered in MMOs.

OG's patented move was to flag (you can only kill people without penalty when they flag) turn on ultimate defense (toggle on armor thing that makes 2000 damage into 20) and go white while the rest of his team gets killed. You would hardly ever see him more than 10 feet out of town and I don't think he ever ventured out when his UD wasn't up. Another OG move when he realized he was going to die was to UD and force log, since UD lasted about the same time that your character remained in game after you force log its another way to dodge getting killed.

On our server when I played our alliance dominated the server. We held down the best leveling spot on the server, took all the castles, etc. One time late at night our enemies all got together and tried to rush our cave (the leveling spot) and kick us out. They had around 40+ people and we had maybe 2 groups of 9 that we could string together when we heard they were coming. Otherguy was their highest level player and he played a tank character so it would be logical to see him lead the rush. But in a game where you take penalties for dying he was one of the last people out, and when things started turning sour (we dropped a train of mobs on them that pretty much had every mob in the cave) otherguy stopped attacking people so he could turn white, ran into a corner, UDed, and was the only person to scroll back to town while the rest of his comrades got demolished.

In L2 nothing was more important to Otherguy than his level. He rarely came to fight us, and when he did it was most likely that he was going to be a tool and go white. The fact that he is willing to PVP in wow when you have almost 0 penalty for dying when he was not willing to in L2 speaks volumes about his calibre of play.

[Soruss]

I would just like to dispel the rumor that otherguy is good having played with him in lineage 2 (possibly the easiest most mind numbing game around especially back when he played) on gustin. He is one of the largest pussies i've ever encountered in MMOs.

OG's patented move was to flag (you can only kill people without penalty when they flag) turn on ultimate defense (toggle on armor thing that makes 2000 damage into 20) and go white while the rest of his team gets killed. You would hardly ever see him more than 10 feet out of town and I don't think he ever ventured out when his UD wasn't up. Another OG move when he realized he was going to die was to UD and force log, since UD lasted about the same time that your character remained in game after you force log its another way to dodge getting killed.

On our server when I played our alliance dominated the server. We held down the best leveling spot on the server, took all the castles, etc. One time late at night our enemies all got together and tried to rush our cave (the leveling spot) and kick us out. They had around 40+ people and we had maybe 2 groups of 9 that we could string together when we heard they were coming. Otherguy was their highest level player and he played a tank character so it would be logical to see him lead the rush. But in a game where you take penalties for dying he was one of the last people out, and when things started turning sour (we dropped a train of mobs on them that pretty much had every mob in the cave) otherguy stopped attacking people so he could turn white, ran into a corner, UDed, and was the only person to scroll back to town while the rest of his comrades got demolished.

In L2 nothing was more important to Otherguy than his level. He rarely came to fight us, and when he did it was most likely that he was going to be a tool and go white. The fact that he is willing to PVP in wow when you have almost 0 penalty for dying when he was not willing to in L2 speaks volumes about his calibre of play.

He's definitely better than most mages, that much is obvious from his videos.

Going to so much effort to prove he is bad just makes you sound biased more than anything.

[WindiaN]

you are right, I am biased because I know he is bad. Back on to what the topic is really about I don't think there is much room to show skill in WoW, a lot of the people he fights are retarded and but he plays his mage well.

I know from experience that he is a terrible pvper in an envrioment where he can actually lose something from fighting. It shows that he has no confidence in his ability becuase he was not willing to risk XP on anything but brainless mobs (the mobs in l2 had the worst AI)

[The Arc]

you are right, I am biased because I know he is bad. Back on to what the topic is really about I don't think there is much room to show skill in WoW, a lot of the people he fights are retarded and but he plays his mage well.

I know from experience that he is a terrible pvper in an envrioment where he can actually lose something from fighting. It shows that he has no confidence in his ability becuase he was not willing to risk XP on anything but brainless mobs (the mobs in l2 had the worst AI)

The only thing we have to go on is your word, which, coupled with your seemingly biased opinion that Soruss pointed out , isn't very convincing. It seems like he may have royally pissed you off and/or you're just jealous.

[Shotai]

Well my opinion is that OG isn't a great player at all. Especially after watching Sorrow Hill 7 that he rushed out the door faster than you can say EA. He respecced elemental like Saerdna and from watching him it looked like he was really struggling with the spec. I dont think hes used to using so many spells and to me it looked extremely sloppy.

[Khalaio]

MMO's generally take teamwork and knowledge of game mechanics more so than reaction time and twitch skill, however having the latter 2 are what seperate being #1 from being #2

[WindiaN]

The only thing we have to go on is your word, which, coupled with your seemingly biased opinion that Soruss pointed out , isn't very convincing. It seems like he may have royally pissed you off and/or you're just jealous.

If you know anyone who played on gustin they know who EA is. Also I'd like to point out that all opinions are biased.

PS: Aren't you two being biased because you don't want to believe me?

[Mylar]

More than three buttons per class to use, Auto-attack not the greatest source of damage, no global cooldown bullshit, and a host of other things strive to suck the good players down in with the mediocre. How good does a hunter with a crossbow of smiting or a warrior with Askhandi have to be? Not that good and he will still look just like the guy with skills. That was about PvP.


I do not agree at all, sure the "noob" can do lots of damage and shit, but skill can really elevate a team in group pvp. Equipment, while good is not _that_ important. In ab/wsg you have teamwork/tactics in addition to player skills which together can push a team with ok equipment ontop of a team with max decked out epix.

We had this discussion ten times over in daoc, especially after the dawn of toa. We still had teams with no mls and only sc'ed equip rape the fuck out of some of the uberdecked ones.

And we had this in wow @ bg's. Some ppl did mostly pve until bgs, were decked out in mc gear and got raped by the good teams who had mostly played pvp from release and till bg's came.

If you can honestly say that a team of "noobs" (ppl who have played wow before but lets say their experience is limited to having one lvl 60 with 5-10days @ 60) borrowing fully decked chars can beat, well lets make it relevant: nurfeds best pvp'ers playing chars in either mc equip or decked in good blues, then ok, i dont have a point. But honestly, i do not believe this statement to be true, hence this whole debate is worthless

eod

[Shotai]

I do not agree at all, sure the "noob" can do lots of damage and shit, but skill can really elevate a team in group pvp. Equipment, while good is not _that_ important. In ab/wsg you have teamwork/tactics in addition to player skills which together can push a team with ok equipment ontop of a team with max decked out epix.

We had this discussion ten times over in daoc, especially after the dawn of toa. We still had teams with no mls and only sc'ed equip rape the fuck out of some of the uberdecked ones.

And we had this in wow @ bg's. Some ppl did mostly pve until bgs, were decked out in mc gear and got raped by the good teams who had mostly played pvp from release and till bg's came.

If you can honestly say that a team of "noobs" (ppl who have played wow before but lets say their experience is limited to having one lvl 60 with 5-10days @ 60) borrowing fully decked chars can beat, well lets make it relevant: nurfeds best pvp'ers playing chars in either mc equip or decked in good blues, then ok, i dont have a point. But honestly, i do not believe this statement to be true, hence this whole debate is worthless

eod

This is WoW, not DAoC. Do you even play this game?

[Mylar]

This is WoW, not DAoC. Do you even play this game?


yes, yes i do. and i stand by my statement.

Do you disagree, do you think the nurfed team in my example would get raped?

[Shotai]

Yes a bunch of noobs with the ability to 1-2 shot people in blues can beat the #1 nurfed pvp team, it doesnt matter who it is.

[RubiksCube]

The point about WoW vs DAoC PvP is pretty simple:

When I used to play DAoC (Shrouded Isles) equipment was capped at a certain point. So people just crafted themselves capped out armor and did PvP.

In World of WarCraft, at a certain point its epics vs epics, it's sort of capped out, but lower level epics will have to decide which way they want to equip, while the upper tier epics are just retartedly uber.

For example, I can equip my druid in MC and BWL Epics, making him have 4k hp and 7k mana and be a good healer or I can equip him in MC Epics and ZG blues and make him superior feralwise with around 25% crit and 1100 attackpower.

When I factor the new AQ40 epics though, I can equip a druid with 4k life, 6.5k mana, 1100 attackpower, 20% crit and 10k armor in bear. Of course a player not limited to choosing specific gear over others, simply because he can choose gear that does both will have it easier. Basically "skill" in WoW was choosing the right gear and than making the right decisions in the fight.

You try to equip a rogue in upper tier blues (and epics from MC) and maximize Attackpower and Crit and I guarantee you won't break 1000 attackpower. I can (easily) equip my combat dagger rogue with AQ items and have 30% crit, 1000 Attackpower and WHILE I do that I get 25% to hit (with my build, but none the less).

At a certain point it's not so much about Weapons and such, its about core attributes, like hitpoints and attackpower. Most epic equipped characters have at least 1k hp more than players equipped in blues and that makes them superior in a way "skill" just can't beat.

[Sintor]

I do not agree at all, sure the "noob" can do lots of damage and shit, but skill can really elevate a team in group pvp. Equipment, while good is not _that_ important. In ab/wsg you have teamwork/tactics in addition to player skills which together can push a team with ok equipment ontop of a team with max decked out epix.

We had this discussion ten times over in daoc, especially after the dawn of toa. We still had teams with no mls and only sc'ed equip rape the fuck out of some of the uberdecked ones.

And we had this in wow @ bg's. Some ppl did mostly pve until bgs, were decked out in mc gear and got raped by the good teams who had mostly played pvp from release and till bg's came.

If you can honestly say that a team of "noobs" (ppl who have played wow before but lets say their experience is limited to having one lvl 60 with 5-10days @ 60) borrowing fully decked chars can beat, well lets make it relevant: nurfeds best pvp'ers playing chars in either mc equip or decked in good blues, then ok, i dont have a point. But honestly, i do not believe this statement to be true, hence this whole debate is worthless

eod

You don't have a point. I'll address both games, right here.

First of all, in DAOC it was possible to overcome not only superior gear (and I use this term loosely, considering anyone could cap just about everything from CRAFTED GEAR), but superior numbers through the use of CC. In wow, *absolute* (sheep, seduce, total disable) CC is only applicable to one player per caster and is EASILY countered.

Similarly, DAOC's main source of damage was from styles, not autoattack. You used positionals and/or reactionaries typically led off by a stun with a "full life" duration. In WoW, your autoattack can make up the majority of your damage, especially with something like an Askhandi or Crossbow of Smiting. Only rogues ever have to deal with position and even then only if they are backstab. Hunters are more like the early-day rangers/scouts (minus stealth), dealing in 1-2 shotting undergeared cloth wearers, except that in wow if that hunter is drenched in epics he's going to have 1500 ap, 30% crit, an autoshot that crits for 1400, 5.5k hp unbuffed, and more armor than a blue geared warrior in plate.

If you took the Nurfed pvp team in full top tier blues versus a "noob" team in the current bleeding-edge epic gear, they might win 1/10 games; but they would lose 90% of the time. The limiters placed on skill make the gear gap absurd. Even MC gear is pretty inadequate these days.

Have you even seen an AQ guild run into a blues team? I can hit warriors with shields on harder than I can hit VHELL THE PRIEST. Their mages/priests/rogues/whatever have all of 2800-3200 hp. I can go in and outmelee a warrior while dual wielding and using raptor strike. Survivability barely scales at the high end when you match gear evenly, let alone people with -1.2k hp.

Want to throw in how few consumables a blue team would use? Didn't think so.

[Mylar]

You don't have a point. I'll address both games, right here.

First of all, in DAOC it was possible to overcome not only superior gear (and I use this term loosely, considering anyone could cap just about everything from CRAFTED GEAR), but superior numbers through the use of CC. In wow, *absolute* (sheep, seduce, total disable) CC is only applicable to one player per caster and is EASILY countered.

Well i should have clarified, i ment 8v8 fights



Similarly, DAOC's main source of damage was from styles, not autoattack. You used positionals and/or reactionaries typically led off by a stun with a "full life" duration. In WoW, your autoattack can make up the majority of your damage, especially with something like an Askhandi or Crossbow of Smiting. Only rogues ever have to deal with position and even then only if they are backstab. Hunters are more like the early-day rangers/scouts (minus stealth), dealing in 1-2 shotting undergeared cloth wearers, except that in wow if that hunter is drenched in epics he's going to have 1500 ap, 30% crit, an autoshot that crits for 1400, 5.5k hp unbuffed, and more armor than a blue geared warrior in plate.
I was not saying that daoc pvp skills = wow pvp skills, i was merely using daoc to point out that both games require skills. Yes daoc was more complex(or could be anyways) Positionals/reactionaries were piss easy to pull off after they made it so you could queue a style that automatically went off if the prereqs were made.

Yes sure autoattack makes up more dmg in wow then in daoc (after end-regen for all realms) but it doesnt mean a warrior who does nothing but autoattack isnt at a huge disadvantage (disarm, hamstring, fear, ms etc are great tools)
And to take that hunter, even with all that, if he cant use traps, wingclip, deterrence etc, i honestly think he will lose to a warrior who knows his shit that runs around in say pvp-gear (rank10set) or other "good" blues with an epic or two that casuals easily can get.



If you took the Nurfed pvp team in full top tier blues versus a "noob" team in the current bleeding-edge epic gear, they might win 1/10 games; but they would lose 90% of the time. The limiters placed on skill make the gear gap absurd. Even MC gear is pretty inadequate these days.

Have you even seen an AQ guild run into a blues team? I can hit warriors with shields on harder than I can hit VHELL THE PRIEST. Their mages/priests/rogues/whatever have all of 2800-3200 hp. I can go in and outmelee a warrior while dual wielding and using raptor strike. Survivability barely scales at the high end when you match gear evenly, let alone people with -1.2k hp.
Well, you might know their skill better then me, but i honestly dont think so(i mentally substitute nurfed with good pvp'ers on my server)
Sure if you set up the groups to basically duel one dude each you would prolly lose, but in group pvp, be it ab(huge advantage) or wsg(decent advantage) or just straight up group pvp. You still have the advantage of skills. I could list them if you want (dispells, target selection, engineering items etc etc)
And yes, you might do more dmg pr hit or fuck, even more dps then him(i havent checked but lets assume so) but if you do nothing but auto and raptor he should be able to beat you(disarm+deathwish, fear, hamstring&intercept etc)



Want to throw in how few consumables a blue team would use? Didn't think so.
You might be thinking of different stuff then me here, but most relevant potions for pvp are pretty easily farmable, im not quite sure what consumables you aim for here(rejuv pots?)

as i said, i've played my share of uneven gear fights, and we werent at that big a disadvantage(but then again we didnt have ALL blues and they didnt have ALL aq gear >.<) Sure i got instakilled if anyone of them got to melee range, but there are ways to avoid that kind of thing often.

[Sintor]

Well i should have clarified, i ment 8v8 fights


I was not saying that daoc pvp skills = wow pvp skills, i was merely using daoc to point out that both games require skills. Yes daoc was more complex(or could be anyways) Positionals/reactionaries were piss easy to pull off after they made it so you could queue a style that automatically went off if the prereqs were made.

Yes sure autoattack makes up more dmg in wow then in daoc (after end-regen for all realms) but it doesnt mean a warrior who does nothing but autoattack isnt at a huge disadvantage (disarm, hamstring, fear, ms etc are great tools)
And to take that hunter, even with all that, if he cant use traps, wingclip, deterrence etc, i honestly think he will lose to a warrior who knows his shit that runs around in say pvp-gear (rank10set) or other "good" blues with an epic or two that casuals easily can get.


Well, you might know their skill better then me, but i honestly dont think so(i mentally substitute nurfed with good pvp'ers on my server)
Sure if you set up the groups to basically duel one dude each you would prolly lose, but in group pvp, be it ab(huge advantage) or wsg(decent advantage) or just straight up group pvp. You still have the advantage of skills. I could list them if you want (dispells, target selection, engineering items etc etc)
And yes, you might do more dmg pr hit or fuck, even more dps then him(i havent checked but lets assume so) but if you do nothing but auto and raptor he should be able to beat you(disarm+deathwish, fear, hamstring&intercept etc)


You might be thinking of different stuff then me here, but most relevant potions for pvp are pretty easily farmable, im not quite sure what consumables you aim for here(rejuv pots?)

as i said, i've played my share of uneven gear fights, and we werent at that big a disadvantage(but then again we didnt have ALL blues and they didnt have ALL aq gear >.<) Sure i got instakilled if anyone of them got to melee range, but there are ways to avoid that kind of thing often.

Throughout your post, you are omitting one very important thing, which has been hammered in post after post.

WoW

Is

Not

Hard

What hunter can't hit a button and use traps? What hunter does not have a FD/Trap macro? What warrior doesn't change stances? What mage can't hit trinkets? What warlock can't fear and death coil? Who doesn't have an assist key? Who doesn't know that you attack the one in the dress? Even by your previous example of 5-10 days played at 60 or even 5-10 days of BEING 60 a person will know their class more than enough to utilize all of its abilities. Even the shit-laden class forums have at least one or two stickies that teaches even the most retarded person how to be somewhat lethal, let alone if they had high end gear.

You did bring daoc into the discussion and thus opened it to analytical criticism. Not to mention you severely contradicted yourself. If you "meant 8v8 fights", then you aren't going to run into complete newbies. Newbs follow the zerg and port to flaming keeps, not roam for 8v8. Styles were piss easy to pull off, PROVIDED THE FULL CC WAS IN PLACE. Sure you could lag someone sticking to you with a rear style in 1v1, but you're talking 8v8. Usually you wouldn't be landing positionals unless the person you were attacking was casting, running and snared, or completely stunned.

A warrior who "only autoattacks" isn't realistic. Every warrior knows how to charge and intercept, mortal strike, hamstring, etc. The point is that if you have an askhandi and 1200 ap, when you charge, get a sword spec proc then your next autoattack round gives a windfury proc, the clothwearer that you charged is dead in ~5s. I can't recall ever strolling up to a person in DAOC and having my buffed autoattack kill them in two rounds. For someone to die as fast as one blues upped player versus one sickly geared player in WoW, 5/8 of your group had to be pounding their shit in with no "saving" ra able to be played.

Consumables range from tubers to hpots to bombs to flasks. Blue geared people rarely have the drive or access to the high end consumables like flasks.

Talking about dispells as an advantage is pretty stupid too, considering the amount of modding done to WoW and that dispelling is a god damn automated process at this point. People in pugs dispel eachother all the time. Hell I've seen pug paladins heal, I know the apocolypse is upon us.

Yes, I destroyed him. He went defensive, he tried to disarm, my natural defense rate is around 32%. Keep in mind my raptor was critting him for 700+ and he probably had 1k less hp than me to begin with. Fearing a single target as a warrior is pretty useless if you have deep wounds. If he had turned on death wish I'd have rocked him even harder. You can hamstring and try to get back for an intercept, but there isn't really anywhere to go in a battleground.

Gear can even bridge the skill gap. Assuming people aren't assisting, a hunter in my gear will still kill your cloth, as will an askhandi warrior. How about Dark Edge? Having the epic damage spread around your group would be an even worse situation if you were grossly outgeared.

I understand that people want to think wow is some complicated game and tactics play an insanely large role, but that only works if the gear gap is remotely small.

[Fervent]

The gear gap in WoW is really large and it really kills the point of skill by quite a bit. And MC gear, except a piece here or there, is completely outdated now imo.

The 10 man I run with the last couple days is all guildies running around in at least tweaked out BWL characters if not AQ gear as well. We were running 3 warriors, 2 with rags hammer and 1 with ashkandi. Most of the groups we fought against were at least full tier1. Our strat for the entire night was killing them in the first battle on the way to their base then everybody run to their GY and sit there while our druid runs the flag back and forth. We would literally sit on their GY slaughtering them the entire game. A couple of the games nobody on our teamed died and this is against ppl in tier 1.

The only times we had to actually play a team was when a tier 2 group fought us, they were aweful players with basically no skills so we still 3-0 them quite easily. The point though is it wasnt a more skilled group coming in that made us actually take a game seriously, it was the fact better gear was in the game. As sintor said, only when gear is evenly matched can skill come into play and even then its a huge lucky factor or assist train that wins it. I charged a full tier 2 mage, I have ashkandi, he was at full health with all his shields up. My first hit killed his shields, plus it procced WF for 1600 crit which procced my SS for another 1400 crit. Add in my 1800 MS crit and he went from at the top of his survivability potential to dead in literaly 1 second. He didnt even have time to react. That isnt skill on my part, its pure luck.

You could say well its not like you went up to the next couple of ppl around him and did that but it doesnt matter. When somebody in a group dies so fast he cant react or be saved by a healer when only 1 person is attacking him that group has already lost. Skill is now irrelevant.

[Mylar]

Throughout your post, you are omitting one very important thing, which has been hammered in post after post.

WoW

Is

Not

Hard

What hunter can't hit a button and use traps? What hunter does not have a FD/Trap macro? What warrior doesn't change stances? What mage can't hit trinkets? What warlock can't fear and death coil? Who doesn't have an assist key? Who doesn't know that you attack the one in the dress? Even by your previous example of 5-10 days played at 60 or even 5-10 days of BEING 60 a person will know their class more than enough to utilize all of its abilities. Even the shit-laden class forums have at least one or two stickies that teaches even the most retarded person how to be somewhat lethal, let alone if they had high end gear.

You did bring daoc into the discussion and thus opened it to analytical criticism. Not to mention you severely contradicted yourself. If you "meant 8v8 fights", then you aren't going to run into complete newbies. Newbs follow the zerg and port to flaming keeps, not roam for 8v8. Styles were piss easy to pull off, PROVIDED THE FULL CC WAS IN PLACE. Sure you could lag someone sticking to you with a rear style in 1v1, but you're talking 8v8. Usually you wouldn't be landing positionals unless the person you were attacking was casting, running and snared, or completely stunned.

A warrior who "only autoattacks" isn't realistic. Every warrior knows how to charge and intercept, mortal strike, hamstring, etc. The point is that if you have an askhandi and 1200 ap, when you charge, get a sword spec proc then your next autoattack round gives a windfury proc, the clothwearer that you charged is dead in ~5s. I can't recall ever strolling up to a person in DAOC and having my buffed autoattack kill them in two rounds. For someone to die as fast as one blues upped player versus one sickly geared player in WoW, 5/8 of your group had to be pounding their shit in with no "saving" ra able to be played.

Consumables range from tubers to hpots to bombs to flasks. Blue geared people rarely have the drive or access to the high end consumables like flasks.

Talking about dispells as an advantage is pretty stupid too, considering the amount of modding done to WoW and that dispelling is a god damn automated process at this point. People in pugs dispel eachother all the time. Hell I've seen pug paladins heal, I know the apocolypse is upon us.

Yes, I destroyed him. He went defensive, he tried to disarm, my natural defense rate is around 32%. Keep in mind my raptor was critting him for 700+ and he probably had 1k less hp than me to begin with. Fearing a single target as a warrior is pretty useless if you have deep wounds. If he had turned on death wish I'd have rocked him even harder. You can hamstring and try to get back for an intercept, but there isn't really anywhere to go in a battleground.

Gear can even bridge the skill gap. Assuming people aren't assisting, a hunter in my gear will still kill your cloth, as will an askhandi warrior. How about Dark Edge? Having the epic damage spread around your group would be an even worse situation if you were grossly outgeared.

I understand that people want to think wow is some complicated game and tactics play an insanely large role, but that only works if the gear gap is remotely small.

im abit busy now, ill explain and elaborate more when i got time/am bored, but:
I did never state wow was a hard game to play. I stated that there is room (albeit smaller then i might have said in my original post) for skills that can help gap the equip chasm.
And no, daoc was never hard (but it still had plenty of room for skill), atleast not as a tank, especially before nerfed determination. I played a zerker pretty extensively, and sure the difference between autoattack and styles were bigger there then in wow, pressing dfrost with snowsquall(comeback) as backup was never hard. (and no, i prolly never twoshotted any cloth who were 50 unstyled, but i can tell you that frenzied i was pretty close a couple of times ^^)

[foggy]

Agreeing with the ''skill is only sort of there when you have equal gear, and even then not really much'' view.

I was in a nice geared group in AB yesterday with high ranked guys and their guildmates(not doing that anymore, the high ranked guys mostly sucked badly). We lost to a slightly lesser geared group because they have the experience of playing probably 50 AB games a day with roughly the same 20-30 people(damn no queues for alliance on our server!) while we were a few good guild people and a bunch of shitty mages who didn't sheep/counterspell and melee who didn't assist.

I still can't believe how people don't know how to /assist, cure poisons, dispel sheep, heal properly, or use crowd control properly in this game when the strategy is fucking gone over before hand and there are a million mods and macros out there to make it even easier, but alas some people just suck at the game. They can still own casting the same attacks on whoever they tab target first due to omgepics, but when you go against a half decent group that doesn't work. I can defenitly tell when I'm against good players who can keep me CC'd/locked out of healing and use the right spells/strategies to go around it and kill my group and I, but it still isn't a whole lot different than a rogue with full bloodfang who ambush backstabs me at the same time a trinket mage presses 1 button to instantly deal 2000+dmg to me while my the shitty shaman next to me is casting chainlightning. :(

[Lodekim]

There is some room for skill in knowing who to target, but with real ideal gear it's just not even close to the most important factor. With some of the gear differences it's not even a challenge, I have Sulfuras and pretty low AP because I mostly pick up tank gear right now and pass because I don't pvp as much as some other warriors. I can still instantly kill people in blues and cloth wearers in epics.

On top of that just throw in the luck and it can be whoever gets the attack off, a rogue jumps me in pvp gear in zerker and I"m dead before the KS wears off, I charge him he's just instantly dead (BWL/AQ gear) Skill is clouded by luck and gear now.

[Shotai]

Unfortunately the whole skill in 'knowing who to target' dies pretty quick when fighting lesser geared people since all of them die in the same number of hits anyhow.

[Soruss]

So... hows EQ2 going?

[Sintor]

So... hows EQ2 going?

Good, did you need some gold to start out or something?

[Shotai]

Good, did you need some gold to start out or something?

I would be playing it, just I hear it takes an ass long time to level?

[Soruss]

Good, did you need some gold to start out or something?

Heh, no. I haven't played it in forever and was curious how end game was looking. Does it seem like the pve/pvp item stats seperation is paying off, or is it going to have a lot of the same problems WoW did?

[Soruss]

I would be playing it, just I hear it takes an ass long time to level?

1-29 wasn't so bad.

[Ford]

I've played a lot of AB/WSG/AV/tarren mill in my day.

Out of all of them gear seems to make the most obvious difference in WSG and ab (remember that sleep armor?) in the larger games like AV and tarren mill the zerg mentaility weighed much more heavily on whether a push would work or not (in my experience anyway)

From a priest perspective I find the only things that take any skill is knowing who and what to dispel, and when, and good fearing/MCing peeps.

The rest comes down to how much +healing and +armor i have.

how hard is it to spam heals on the guy getting focused? and kudos to blizz for allowing the only 2 counters in my arsenal be to heal through it (+healing dependant) or fear attackers (shadow resist ftw). God forbid a 'leet' mage or hunter trap/sheep me...

*edit*

Also come to think of it the only games I ever looked forward to in WSG were the ones playing guilds that raided as much or more then mine did. those "pvp only guilds" just never seem to cut it

oh well i'm done for now =P


Sachem 60 priest Thunderlord

[Mylar]

I've played a lot of AB/WSG/AV/tarren mill in my day.
From a priest perspective I find the only things that take any skill is knowing who and what to dispel, and when, and good fearing/MCing peeps.


if those are the only things that take any skill, im guessing you sat around on alliance with a pally as your personal bodyguard and your team had the best gear availible or something like it.
As a horde priest mainly in blues, in a team in blues and pre-rags epics vs teams fully decked in mc gear(and rags wpns) or teams with one rank14 player and the rest above 11 I can tell you that who to dispell and good fearing/mc'ing was about 10% of my survivalrate and consequently 10% of my skills in pvp.
What I found most important was placement, make yourself an unattractive/nonobvious target. (like daoc, hib @savage era)
If they got to me, i was dead 80% of the times. Also having a mage near you is invaluable if their pally has forgotten BoF.

This ofc, is not to say we didnt use mc helmuts(they are the most imba shit ever to alleviate equip difference ^^) faps and engineering to the fullest extent. It came to the point that most teams with average rank12 (we had one rank12'er, rest sub 10) and teams with the best pve rewards you could get /afk'ed out when they met us in wsg because the fights took so long and we usually won them due to skills, engineering/faps and tactics)
Granted, the gear difference wasnt that bad then, and when bwl came, we had some perd blades/tuf vs their asscandys and t2, but we still mainly won.
And ofc, you have no guarantee on how good these alliance teams were. (not that that should matter, wow having no room for skills and all :p)

[Ford]

if those are the only things that take any skill, im guessing you sat around on alliance with a pally as your personal bodyguard and your team had the best gear availible or something like it.
As a horde priest mainly in blues, in a team in blues and pre-rags epics vs teams fully decked in mc gear(and rags wpns) or teams with one rank14 player and the rest above 11 I can tell you that who to dispell and good fearing/mc'ing was about 10% of my survivalrate and consequently 10% of my skills in pvp.
What I found most important was placement, make yourself an unattractive/nonobvious target. (like daoc, hib @savage era)
If they got to me, i was dead 80% of the times. Also having a mage near you is invaluable if their pally has forgotten BoF.

I agree, that with all blues pvp is a totally different game for me. I've been fortunate enough to be able to throw a rediculous amount of time into this game. As a HORDE priest usually one of 2 healers in our group of dps frenzy classes it's easy to be focused and what not...

of course vhell's posts about armor helped show some alternatives to just taking it up the bum to melee classes. So one heavy dark iron ring and a dragon slayers medallion later PvP got a LOT easier...

[Fudgy]

I can confirm Windian's claims of Otherguy's pussydom. He and his guild were beaten so badly that they collectively quit Lineage2 because they were sick of the beatdowns. I still laugh everytime he puts out another stupid movie of his killing green-geared druids who chain moonfire and don't bother to heal themselves.

And honestly could Otherguy miss more with nades. What a complete downy.

[foggy]

I agree, that with all blues pvp is a totally different game for me. I've been fortunate enough to be able to throw a rediculous amount of time into this game. As a HORDE priest usually one of 2 healers in our group of dps frenzy classes it's easy to be focused and what not...

of course vhell's posts about armor helped show some alternatives to just taking it up the bum to melee classes. So one heavy dark iron ring and a dragon slayers medallion later PvP got a LOT easier...

Agreed. With the armor build I'm constantly tanking 3+ shitty geared players alone or 2-3 amazing geared players if I'm getting healed and supported and such. I still try and hide behind stuff, but there's only so much to hide behind in boring arathi basin blacksmith encounters. I really think though as a healer there isn't a whole lot you can do other than being quick on the dispels, positioning, and smart fears. Otherwise it's really up to how well teammates support you and how fast your DPS kills them.

[foggy]

I heard there wasn't any pvp on Malgoonis
There isn't really, it's a bunch of horrible alliance and one semi-decent(still not that great unless they have all the best players together at the same time) team who in PvP is pretty much led by horde rerolls who were sick of queues. 95% of the PvP is done in battlegrounds. A bunch of people have been trying to organize 5v5 stuff for a while but no one who says they'll show up ever does. This makes the horde worse at PvP as well since we never have to face any real competition, we can regularly take horrible geared alt bad player honor farmers in our groups and come out on top without much strategy.

20-80 minute queues and hardly any world pvp for the lose. :(

[Athrun]

meh tried to get blizzard's attention with some things, made this post, it doesn't really ask them to change things to get it more skilled, but i received a reply stating this:
"Jeff Kaplan in a recent video interview said that the honour system wasn't right and that it had become a timesink which is not what he wanted. (I dont remember his exact words). His development team are changing the honour system and are looking at the possibility of introducing some form of skill-based formula to impact on the deciding rank and therefore the rewards."

this is the topic btw, support if ur european or copy to us forums to get it under attenton of ur CM's w/e http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.aspx?ForumName=wow-general-en&ThreadID=1008483

[Athrun]

There isn't really, it's a bunch of horrible alliance and one semi-decent(still not that great unless they have all the best players together at the same time) team who in PvP is pretty much led by horde rerolls who were sick of queues. 95% of the PvP is done in battlegrounds. A bunch of people have been trying to organize 5v5 stuff for a while but no one who says they'll show up ever does. This makes the horde worse at PvP as well since we never have to face any real competition, we can regularly take horrible geared alt bad player honor farmers in our groups and come out on top without much strategy.

20-80 minute queues and hardly any world pvp for the lose. :(

migration solves. rerolling if you can't, does too. No matter the amount of epics, just pick up your bags with ALL your friends and your guild and leave. I did it, it works great.

[Theldon]

tons of pvp on mug thol

[Eisenbart]

Mug'thol is probably the best example reflecing the issues in this thread. So many people on Mug'thol are decked to the teeth and yet have no idea wtf they are doing. If that's the result of never stepping out of an instance or e-bay who knows. Mug'thol is also plagued with 3 minute mages, charge/ww/ms/execute warriors, whatever bastid things warlocks do :( etc.

[Theldon]

Mug'thol is probably the best example reflecing the issues in this thread. So many people on Mug'thol are decked to the teeth and yet have no idea wtf they are doing. If that's the result of never stepping out of an instance or e-bay who knows. Mug'thol is also plagued with 3 minute mages, charge/ww/ms/execute warriors, whatever bastid things warlocks do :( etc.

aren't all servers this way?

[The Arc]

aren't all servers this way?

I think Mug'thol is worse than most. There are so many guilds that have BWL and AQ on farm status that it seems there are more 60s in full epics than not.

[Shaneequa]

hay dudez

[disolute]

Wait for Darkfall.

[Sneezer]

Wait for Darkfall.
I'm waiting for that million dollar lottery ticket aswell, question is, which will come first?

[Soruss]

Wait for Darkfall.

Wait for it to be what? Another flop like SB?

[Carnie]

Shadowbane was hardly a flop. It had a very loyal player base and if they could have fixed some issues early that game would be thriving. I had the enjoyment of being in some large battles that had little lag and it was truely a blast. Most of the times there was awful lag and server crashes but those few times the game went smooth kept me playing for 2+ years.

Anyways to say something that has to do with the original topic....these games are made for everyone to play and because not everyone is connected to the internet via fiber optic games will be dumbed down. They dont take much skill to play on a normal and basic level.

[Ellestar]

For a "fair" 8v8 with the same gear Guild Wars is better. And guild ladder uses ELO ranking system that reflects team skill instead of time spent farming points like in WoW. But there is nothing else there in that game so i guess MMORPGs will always be that way - either PvE farming crap with sucky item-dependant PvP or a good skill-based PvP with a non-existant PvE.

P.S. And yes, Darkfall will be Soon™. Soon™ after beta. I think beta should have started at least 3 years ago? Oh well, if it comes it will be nice but no point waiting for it.

[SandDemon]

Oh god, not this conversation again....

warhammer > all

[Sintor]

Way to necro this thread.

[Mylar]

P.S. And yes, Darkfall will be Soon™. Soon™ after beta. I think beta should have started at least 3 years ago? Oh well, if it comes it will be nice but no point waiting for it.

In Soviet Russia, Darkfall waits for you

[Naikuja]

In Soviet Russia, Darkfall waits for you


need russian women... vodka even ;l

[Soruss]

Oh god, not this conversation again....

warhammer > all

Do you really think darkfall will require more skill? :|

[SandDemon]

you mean Warhammer? I'd hope so

[Soruss]

you mean Warhammer? I'd hope so

Haha, yeah. I make weird typos where I type out something that I had just read instead of what I meant to type.