Mages in PvP

[alcaras]

Hi everyone :)

Looks like most of the posts on this board are related to Warriors and Priests :P

I was just wondering if mages might have any comments...

My current target build is 31 Arcane/20 Fire (Evocation, Insta AE, Counterspell/Silence, PoM, Arcane Power, Pyroblast, Impact, Ignite, Flamethrowing). I'm level 51 right now so I haven't completed it but pretty much have everything except for Arcane Power.

I do pretty well in solo PvP, but have serious trouble against healing classes.

Priests ... I can usually beat with a Poly, Pyroblast, Silence, PoM+Fireball, Fireblast, Arcane Missiles, but if they're int/sta build priests, they will have HP to pop a shield once silence wears off and then I get feared and dotted and find it best to run in those situations.

Paladins ... I have yet to beat an equal level paladin. That said, I have yet to die to an equal level paladin. I can't stop their shield... my best tactic so far is to lure them to use their shield early and keep my burst damage held back until the shield expires... but then they LoH and we're back to square one. :-/ Frost is completely useless against them, as they just cleanse. I end up not having mana to keep away from their HoJ via blink and burn through 2-3 life bars of theirs.

Druids ... if they Nature's Swiftness, they will be able to pop an insta heal upon coming out of Polymorph (unless they're some sort of low hp druid)... that's if I can a polymorph off on them at all, as if they're in an animal form I can't poly them at all. Mostly though druids don't fight, they just run away... and I have no real way of stopping them. They're too fast to land even a 1.5 frost bolt on them (the snare effect of which they can remove by shifting, and they will shiftback too fast before I can Poly them, though I could slip in a PoM+Poly, but then they will just run after my standard post-poly combo).

Warriors ... if I let them get close, I die. They have higher burst damage than I do... and Intim Shout means I can't get away from it. Fortunately Intim Shout can be silenced, so I try to silence any warrior that comes close. They're not as problematic as the healing classes mentioned above, but they can still utterly destroy me without any recourse.

Equal-level Alliance Hunters, Rogues, Mages and Warlocks aren't as much trouble. Hunters I just get close so they can't shoot and spam AE, Rogues that I get the jump on are easily dealt with (and only level 60 rogues have thus far gotten the jump on me :-/), I'm int/sta so I can usually survive an equal level Mage's onslaught, assuming I get polymorphed... and Warlocks, well all alliance warlocks are polymorphable, remove curse gets rid of CoT... my only problems have been with ones that are adept at using the succubus.

Any advice/comments are appreciated :) I haven't done much group PvP so I can't reflect on that.

Cheers,

Alcaras.

[Jumai]

In large scale pvp, mages go oom a lot. They're strong in match type pvp such as 5v5s, due to polymorph and bust killing, but when the event lasts more than 10 minutes the downtime is horrible.

[IN-QQQQ]

Not really, because in PVP you can drink alot. I spend time drinking, but it's not that bad.

[alcaras]

Evocation is also there every 6 minutes for a near-full mana heal.

[Jumai]

I'll defer to the mages, this is mostly from my rogue's perspective. But still, when I see a mage drinking, I've always been running, chasing or stabbing.

[Real]

Not really, because in PVP you can drink alot. I spend time drinking, but it's not that bad.

Isnt being able to drink in PvP taken out?

[IN-QQQQ]

If they keep you Targeted.

But most of the time, I find that if I back away from the front line, they will have switched targets and I won't be considered in combat after about 5 seconds. I drink water all the time during PvP.

Remeber being in combat in PvP isn't the same as being in combat with a Mob, there is no HATE/Agro List.

[Wyvvy]

Evocation is also there every 6 minutes for a near-full mana heal.

Maybe for a level 40 evocation regenerates near-full mana...at level 60 it barely gives you half your mana bar.

[alcaras]

I'm assuming you switch to int/spirit gear for Evocation :-/ At least, I hope it gives you back a full heal in int/spi gear...

At 51 I get about 3000 of my 5300 mana back with Evocation, in int/sta gear.

[Wyvvy]

u wont be able to switch equipment in combat no more.

[Av]

Next time we do soutshore Wyvvy, group with me and let me loot the mageweave :twisted:

[Mauka]

I'm planning on going pretty much all frost for a Mage come retail mostly because I like the concept and feel of it. I haven't been in any large scale PvP raids and was wondering how a frost mage would function differently than others. I'm guessing cold talents for slows, rooting and AE's would be key, but if anyone else wants to toss something in based on experience, I'd be interesting in reading it.

Thanks. :)

[Ralrra]

From everything I've heard the amount of items that increase fire damage % dwarf any advantage of frost simply because of the raw dps you can put out, but I've never played a mage in the end-game personally.

[Wyvvy]

Next time we do soutshore Wyvvy, group with me and let me loot the mageweave :twisted:
im not sharing my mageweave

[IN-QQQQ]

That's right, I GET IT ALL =)

[Rizwan]

Evocation is also there every 6 minutes for a near-full mana heal.

Maybe for a level 40 evocation regenerates near-full mana...at level 60 it barely gives you half your mana bar.

From what I was told it depends on your spirit.

I have a nice spirit/int build going on, at lv 59 I have almost 7k mana and evocation regens about 75% of it.

[Kasie]

My current target build is 31 Arcane/20 Fire (Evocation, Insta AE, Counterspell/Silence, PoM, Arcane Power, Pyroblast, Impact, Ignite, Flamethrowing). I'm level 51 right now so I haven't completed it but pretty much have everything except for Arcane Power.


Pyroblast is a thing of the past that people need to get over. Combined with combustion its a potent ability but with the flood of arcane abilities entering the mainstream, the combination is no longer there. Instant damage, which is usualy all that matters in PvP, fireball and pyroblast are on on the same par. Blast Wave is a much better ability to have. Instant cast AOE daze for about 400 damage, with less of a cooldown than pyroblast. Pyroblast offers nothing more than fireball in PvP except its combination with presence of mind, once every 5 minutes, which is better than fireball marginably. Remeber DOT isnt affected by arcant instability or crits. In the time you can cast one pyroblast for 900 damage, I've already hit you twice with a 700 damage fireball and im casting my third. Infact I wouldnt cast a 3rd. I'd counterspell you, 5 seconds wasted. Keep that in mind (though this instance is vs mages only, the dps of pyroblast is awful). Once every 5 minutes you can beat me.

Currently on my level 55 mage I have Improved AM, Improved AE, Arcane Concentration, Evocation (16 talents), Then all the fire talents except improved scorch, improved fireblast, pyroblast (the rest of the talents). Currently i'm 2/5 in the final talent before combustion which I dont intent to get. PvP I perform very well, with my spirit/intel build I regenerate 1025 mana a tick in evocation meaning my 6000 mana pool will nearly completely fill. PvE I can nearly kill or completely kill the elite Dragonkin in temple with just AE spells, depending on how many times Arcane Concentration procs. Basily I've gone after the low tier good arcane abilites and then on to all the fire abilitys that stack, Impact, Critical Mass, Ignition, Improved Flame Strike etc. Its a very potent combination in large scale PvP when I can hit alot of targets for alot of damage, daze them all, then spam Arcane Explosion for arround 200-300 DPS AE damage. Its a build thats potent both PvP and PvE.

What I give up is abilites like Presence of Mind, and Arcane Instability. I will admit since I had both these abilities for a long time, they are very strong. They dont, in my opinion, outweigh my fire build though. That extra push every 5 minutes of a PoM doesnt outweigh a constant 8% damage increast in fire, and the chance to stun. Remember fire is your power house for damage, its where the DPS is. The major boost I see is instant polymorph, but to get this you need to invest vast talents so Its realy not worth it. Cone of Cold or Frost Nova will slow or halt your target enough that you can back up and get a Polymorph off easy. In large scale PvP a mage shouldnt be worrying about individual targets anyways, we are the Kings and Queens of AoE after all. I will admit this is probobly a great advantage in small group (5v5 for example) PvP, when you want the boost and you want it now to give your team the upper hand. Arcane Instability is a great boost for a short time, but like I said, it doesnt do enough. What do you cast when you have Arcane Instability active? Fireball/Fireblast maybe Arcane Missiles if they're in Melee range, thats about all. Why not go with a constant boost to these skills instead of one every 3 minutes that costs you more mana?

[Jumai]

Evocation is also there every 6 minutes for a near-full mana heal.

Maybe for a level 40 evocation regenerates near-full mana...at level 60 it barely gives you half your mana bar.

From what I was told it depends on your spirit.

I have a nice spirit/int build going on, at lv 59 I have almost 7k mana and evocation regens about 75% of it.

What's your hp like? With 7k mana and that much SPI, I don't see you lasting long on pvp.

edit: kasie, you're right about pyroblast. From a non-mage perspective, I'm always happy to see some moron start to cast teh big fire nuke, it means I have time to finish what I'm doing and go inturrupt him.

[Kasie]

Its flavor of the week that people need to get over, its not that good anymore for anything but PvE. I laugh at anyone who casts pyroblast in PvP. I wouldnt even call it a "big" fire nuke. Its just "another" fire nuke. The instant damage on fireblast is about .15 damage to mana (if i recall correctly) better than that to fireball, for more than double the cast time provideing you have improved fireball, and if you dont have improved fireball unless you're a cold mage you deserve to be shot. Most cold mages deserve to be shot anyways, Though a potent cold build has been brought to my attention that I want to try out.

[Sardaukar]

Your talking about its uses in group PvP, which I agree, pyroblast is limited. In 1v1 PvP, however, it can be a greats pell to break sheep with and Arcane Power - Pyro - PoM - Fireball is no laughing matter.

[Jumai]

1v1 pvp is ganks or duels in WoW. In duels it doesn't matter who wins, and in ganks, circumstance is a greater factor than anything else. If you want to grief lowbies pyroblast is fine, and if you think you can squeeze off a polymorph on someone 6+ levels above you while you're engaged with a mob, ditch the mob, med, and open with pyro... reliably enough to be worth teh talents... I can't help you.

[alcaras]

I only use pyroblast either:

PoM+Pyroblast to hit them with large damage instantly
or
Poly in a 1v1 where I can take 6 seconds to cast it because it's just me and my pet sheep

Arcane Power'd Flamestrike = Blast wave, damage wise (mana use is another story)

AP FS + AE spam > BW + AE Spam, damage wise (mana use is another story)

[Hybby]

Combust + BW

Anyone thought about throwing that around?

[alcaras]

Rawr, numbers:

AP + PoM Flamestrike + 9 Arcane Explosions (total 15 seconds):
AP PoM Flamestrike (1336.5 mana, 1083 damage per target)
AP Arcane Explosion (526.5 mana, 351.8 damage per target)
Total: 6075 mana, 4249.368 damage per target

Combustion + BlastWave + 9 Arcane Explosions (total 15 seconds):
Blastwave (545 mana, 1082 damage per target)
Arcane Explosion (390 mana, 253 damage per target)
Total: 4055 mana, 3359.62 damage per target

Damage figures are averages, ignoring all crits (except for the guaranteed ignited crit from Blastwave). Arcane Instability (+3% damage) is assumed for the Arcane template, Fire Power (+10% damage) and Ignite (+40% crit damage) are assumed for the Fire template.

[Kasie]

You just listed when pyro can be used. If you cant see from that, its uses are very limited for a marginal benefit instant damage wise. In battle DOTs dont matter, because even if the DOT kills him, He's probobly still killed you.

You say that an AP FS = a BW, except with mana, and AP FS + SE spam > BW + AE spam in all but mana? Thats just the point. You kill yourself mana wise. The mage isnt about spamming spells everywhere, otherwise AE would be the only spell I used, instant cast for 200-300 damage? Thats the best DPS spell we have. PvE you wanna conserve your mana not blow it everywhere, and in this blast wave is supperior. PvP you wanna do the same, its a mess being a mage in PvP because of this. Its all about saving your mana and drinking when you can.

In a 1v1 you're probobly better off haveing pyroblast than not, but other than that, no way.

[alcaras]

I can't see going 31 Fire in PvP though...

There's plenty of time to drink when the enemy have died :P

Once again, I have very little group PvP experience, and from the zerg vs. zerg I've been in Hillsbrad... the enemy always keeps coming :(

[Kasie]

Rawr, numbers:

AP + PoM Flamestrike + 9 Arcane Explosions (total 15 seconds):
AP PoM Flamestrike (1336.5 mana, 1083 damage per target)
AP Arcane Explosion (526.5 mana, 351.8 damage per target)
Total: 6075 mana, 4249.368 damage per target

Combustion + BlastWave + 9 Arcane Explosions (total 15 seconds):
Blastwave (545 mana, 1082 damage per target)
Arcane Explosion (390 mana, 253 damage per target)
Total: 4055 mana, 3359.62 damage per target

Damage figures are averages, ignoring all crits (except for the guaranteed ignited crit from Blastwave). Arcane Instability (+3% damage) is assumed for the Arcane template, Fire Power (+10% damage) and Ignite (+40% crit damage) are assumed for the Fire template.

The damage to mana ratio should be clear. For ~ 2000 more mana you got ~ 900 more damage. The Fire combanation is much more potent. Though I would throw a Flamestrike down (lets keep in mind this has about a 45ish% chance to crit thanks to fire talents) then combust the blast wave, hit em hard, hit em hard again and daze them.

As to not going 31 in fire in PvP. Fire does not have 2 noticeable ablities that kick in every 5 minutes (PoM and AI) that make, and I will admit, a strong combination.

Fire however offers things like a constant 8% boost to all fire damage (the spells that do the damage for you in most cases anyways). A 10% chance to stun on all hits, spells like blast wave that are an AE daze that hit hard. Fire spells also crit 10% more often, and when they do they add 40% damage (not instant damage, which is the perfered in PvP).

Yes, When you can set it up the AI PoM combination will be better. But in an Over time rateing fire is better, and in large scale and in group PvP you cant spend all your Mana killing 1 target, because you become useless for the rest. You recieve more of a boost from a constant 8% boost to fire than you one 35% boost every 3 minutes. Fire adds more in the higher trees that arcane combat wise. Thats what I'm saying.

[Hybby]

Rawr, numbers:

AP + PoM Flamestrike + 9 Arcane Explosions (total 15 seconds):
AP PoM Flamestrike (1336.5 mana, 1083 damage per target)
AP Arcane Explosion (526.5 mana, 351.8 damage per target)
Total: 6075 mana, 4249.368 damage per target

Combustion + BlastWave + 9 Arcane Explosions (total 15 seconds):
Blastwave (545 mana, 1082 damage per target)
Arcane Explosion (390 mana, 253 damage per target)
Total: 4055 mana, 3359.62 damage per target

Damage figures are averages, ignoring all crits (except for the guaranteed ignited crit from Blastwave). Arcane Instability (+3% damage) is assumed for the Arcane template, Fire Power (+10% damage) and Ignite (+40% crit damage) are assumed for the Fire template.

Errr... did you even factor in combustion?

Combust + BW = you're critting EVERY target. Not just a single target.

Critting every target in a tight zone + daze > *

[alcaras]

1082 damage per target <-- includes crit and ignite

[Hybby]

Regardless, that's pretty psycho...

[Kasie]

Also, if you lay down a flamestrike you have about 25% chance to crit on each target, for rather decent damage. I'm sure you can begin to see what I'm getting at...

[Doodle]

sounds wicked :twisted: