For you priests out there

[Rizwan]

My guildmate posted this and we don't have any priests in our guild to answer this, so your feedback would be appreciated.

"Shadow priest = viable? vs holy?

This is what I think is the best talent build for a priest taking into consideration the bonuses from each talent. Give me your opinions.

Cool Talent Calculater - http://wowvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Talents.View&category_select_id=6


Discipline Talents (17 points)


Unbreakable Will - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to resist Stun, Fear, and Silence effects by 15%. Who likes to be feared, stunned, or silence? Newbs do

Improved Power Word: Shield - 3/3 points
Reduces the duration of your Power Word: Shield's Weakened Soul effect by 15 seconds. Dropping the weaken soul timer from 30 seconds to 15 is just plain obvious....weaken soul means you cant recast sheild on that person till it goes away.
Improved Power Word: Fortitude - 2/2 points
Increases the effect of your Power Word: Fortitude spell by 30%. Adds 15 stam to highest rank fort..Not really my favorite choice, its a toss up between this talent and this: (Martyrdom - 2/2 points
Gives you a 100% chance to gain the Focused Casting effect that lasts for 6 seconds after being the victim of a critical strike. The Focused Casting effect prevents you from losing casting time when taking damage.) But Martydom would only be good in pvp situations vs rogues or recklessness warriors imo, so Improved Fort gets it

Mental Agility - 5/5 points
Reduces the mana cost of your instant cast spells by 10%. with this build you would use sheild, Pain, Flay, Dispel, vampiric embrace, Fear, Soothe, and also the buff instas such as Fort, Shadow Res, Inner fire, shadowform...while the buffs arent as important, the saved mana from the other insta casts are hella nice, not to mention Renew when not in shadowform...Need any more convincing? You would save well over 200 mana on just one non elite same lvl mob, and the more you cast in this build the more you save since most spells are instas


Improved Mana Burn - 2/2 points
Reduces the casting time of your Mana Burn spell by 1 second. 2 second mana burn is leet, mana burn is almost a necessity vs casters/hybrids so now you can cast it three times in the time it would take you to cast it twice without this improvement...OH and 1/2 the mana burned is also dmg dealt, so 600 mana burned is 300 dmg. 270 mana to burn 738-780 so that also means nearly 400 dmg for 270 mana...how much more mana efficent can you get?



Holy Talents (0 points)


None


Shadow Talents (34 points)


Blackout - 5/5 points
Gives your Shadow damage spells a 10% chance to stun the target for 3 seconds. It just owns when someone gets stunned for any amount of time, and so far each tick of any shadow dmg i do shares this chance to stun, so thats alot of chances...i like this type of "chance" when my Pain ticks 7 times while my flay is ticking 3 times per cast/second...ya those are good odds. Also something evoe pointed out...it is helping the healing aspect when it procs cuz the mob isnt doing dmg so you dont need to heal as much...nice bonus

Shadow Focus - 5/5 points
Reduces your target's chance to resist your Shadow spells by 10%. Considering it takes 150 resistance to shadow to resists a same lvl mobs/players spell by 50%, i'd say this talent is pretty damn nice. I'd say it drops their resistance to shadow by roughly 30.


Improved Shadow Word: Pain - 2/2 points
Increases the duration of your Shadow Word: Pain spell by 6 seconds. Adds 340 dmg to your SW:P spell by adding 6 seconds to it while it does 170 every 3 seconds...340 more dmg is hot when they try to run away



Improved Psychic Scream - 2/2 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Psychic Scream ability by 4 seconds. 4 seconds isnt a very huge improvement imo, but its almost enough time to kite the crap out of shit while dealing dmg, and you need it to get silence...so duh


Mind Flay - 1/1 point
Assault the target's mind with Shadow energy, causing 75 damage over 3 seconds and slowing the target to 50% of their movement speed. Deals as much dmg as SW:P per tick, except it lasts 3 seconds and does dmg each second...so while SW:P does 170 every 3 seconds, Mind Flay is doing 170 per second x3, insta cast, slows enemy by 50%...Is that leet enough for you?

Improved Mind Blast - 3/5 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Mind Blast spell by 1.5 seconds. I really like this..i wish i could have enough points to max it, but with 3 into it, thats enough time to cast Mind Blast, DoT, Mind Flay, Fear, Mind Blast again (usualy dead before that tho, or i use mind flay again to finish it off)

Shadow Reach - 3/3 points
Increases the range of your Shadow damage spells by 20%. Fear makes them run so far sometimes if you dont get your spell off asap you will be out of range, this added to Mind Blast, SW:P and Flay..is just omg leet


Silence - 1/1 point
Silence the target, preventing them from casting spells for 5 seconds. O M G Tivloli why aren't you casting, P W N....enough said?

Shadow Weaving - 5/5 points
Your Shadow damage spells have a 100% chance to cause your target to be vulnerable to Shadow damage. This vulnerability increases the Shadow damage dealt to your target by 4% and lasts 15 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times. Ok this is one of my favorites, each time you land a shadow spell you add 4% to your shadow dmg to that mob...dot, flay, fear, flay, mind blast now its at 20% more dmg...vs elite mobs that is just leet...also if you have a warlock or another priest to cast shadow spells...^^...Oh and dont forget this will work together with some of the talent below...watch..

Vampiric Embrace - 1/1 point
Afflicts your target with Shadow energy that causes all party members to be healed for 20% of any Shadow damage you deal for 1 minute. I would not get this untill lvl 60 i think...why? becuase with the higher lvl spells vs 1 mob i can heal everyone in my group for near or above 400...while dealing dmg...not a huge bonus..but its killa if im the 2nd healer in the group...Oh and that figure of 400 is not taking into consideration of the next talent "Darkness" or when im in "Shadowform" which means 30% more dmg from shadow spells, so more healing for the entire group.

Darkness - 5/5 points
Increases your Shadow spell damage by 10%. Requisite for shadowform and coincides with "Shadow weaving", Shadowforum" and also effects "Vampiric Embrace"


Shadowform - 1/1 point
Assume a Shadowform, increasing your Shadow damage by 20% and reducing Physical damage done to you by 20%. However, you may only cast Shadow and Discipline spells while in this form. 20% less melee dmg taken, 20% more shadow dmg dealt, works together with "Darkness" "Shadow weaving" and "Vampiric Embrace"

Why Shadow and No Holy? Well take a look at the Holy talents...

Holy Talents (51 points)


Holy Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the critical effect chance of your Holy spells by 5%. Chance to crit 5% how shitty considering it relies on a "chance" I'd rather stick to definites

Improved Smite - 3/3 points
Increases the damage of your Smite spell by 6%. 24-27 added dmg to smite...wtf is that? lol costs 315 mana 1.33 dmg per mana ...not very mana efficent.

Spiritual Healing - 5/5 points
Increases your Mana regeneration rate by 50% after getting a critical effect from your Flash Heal, Heal, Greater Heal, or Prayer of Healing spell. Your Mana may regenerate at a 50% rate while casting. Lasts 10 seconds. Another "Chance"..Lets say you regen 100 mana per tick thats about 50 per second, with this "chance" you "could" get 150 mana regen per tick, 75 per second, thats all well and good after you wait the 5 seconds after casting to actually get that full 150 per tick, so its more like 25 ish per tick during that 5 seconds then the other 10 seconds you regen pretty fast...considering you do not cast again till that 15 secs is up...lame imo


Inspiration - 5/5 points
Increases your target's armor value from items by 25% for 15 seconds after getting a critical effect from your Flash Heal, Heal, Greater Heal, or Prayer of Healing spell. Awsome another "chance" to crit and activate this, lets say a warrior had 4k armor "from items" thats an added 1k armor for 15 seconds so he can take what? 20 less dmg? again lame imo

Holy Fire - 1/1 point
Consumes the enemy in flames that cause 90 to 116 Fire damage and an additional 28 Fire damage over 8 seconds.
LMAO...90-116 dmg for 110 mana, very mana efficent eh? OH but wait...5 second cast time with a 1 minute cool down..haha you got to be kidding me?

Subtlety - 5/5 points
Reduces the threat generated by your healing spells by 20%. I got a better solution...get a better warrior/paladin/druid if threat is an issue


Improved Renew - 5/5 points
Increases the amount healed by your Renew spell by 20%. Ok i actually like this one, but even this only adds 164 more hp healed over 15 seconds..worth it? Vampiric embrace would get me close to 400 hp heal just for dealing shadow dmg


Improved Resurrection - 2/2 points
Reduces the resurrection sickness penalty of your Resurrection spell by 25%. Oh thats cool...but who cares? usually if someone dies you will have time to heal them to full after the rez


Improved Healing - 5/5 points
Reduces the Mana cost of your Lesser Heal, Heal, and Greater Heal spells by 10%. Ahh that sounds so sweet huh? not really, greater heal highest rank cost 1k mana, so I save 100 mana per cast of it...yay? AI pot thank you


Improved Flash Heal - 2/2 points
Gives you a 70% chance to avoid interruption caused by damage while casting Flash Heal. This is actually very good for pvp, while you're getting raped by a rogue or warrior and you need to flash heal yourself...or even getting raped by an instance mob and your tank is falling...Great talent imo, but worth the 15 prerequisite points?

Combat Resurrection - 1/1 point
Brings a dead player back to life with 50% of their health and mana. The target does not suffer from resurrection sickness. Awsome ability, heres a better solution, dont let your tank die?

Divine Fury - 4/5 points
Reduces the casting time of your Smite and Holy Fire spells by 0.4 seconds. didnt have enough points to max this to .5 seconds..but oh joy, so i can cast smite in 2 seconds now? oh thats awsome i can same 1 second to cast one of the most horribly mana efficent spells priest has...just awsome

Improved Prayer of Healing - 2/2 points
Reduces the Mana cost of your Prayer of Healing spell by 20%. This is pretty cool, you would save 200 mana per cast on group heal...or you could just get a better tank? In pvp i can see this being a decent bonus..but what pvp encounter does everyone of your members get attacked? Oh right when the other ppl are so noob to all attack different targets...ok ya great talent then...lame


Master Healer - 5/5 points
Increases the effectiveness of your healing spells by 10%. Sounds pretty nice huh? so my group heal will heal for 100 more per cast and my greater heal will do almost 300 more, thats pretty cool...not....when your greater heal does almost 3k heal, what the hell is 300 more going to make or break things? Greater heal is the only spell that would most benifit from this..worth all the prerequisite points?

Holy Nova - 1/1 point
Causes an explosion of holy light around the caster, causing 80 to 88 Holy damage to all targets within 10 yards. The effect also temporarily reduces your threat level against nearby targets for 5 seconds. One of the best spells in the holy tree by far for aggro management, but worth all the talent points to get it? why not get a better tank? Oh wait i know..cuz it would pwn in pvp? LOL

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If anyone actually read all that, give me your opinions, so many ppl bitch about shadow priests and dont want them in their instance group...but i honestly cant see the benifit to going holy...i mean the talents suck...especially when you compare them to the shadow tree benifits. At best you save a lil bit of mana per heal, your smite does a minute amount more dmg, and your heals do a slight bit more...while the shadow/disc build i put up there seems to greatly benifit the priest in both pve and pvp in solo and group play.

I was willing to go Holy for the guild in retail...but i honestly cant justify taking up that talent tree...help me see why I should...If you think I should. Other wise im going this exact shadow/disc build i put up there."

-ZXtress

[MrO]

Note that I am not at the Tivoli level before proceeding.

As a priest, you have options with talents where you can customize your character to your playstyle. That being said like I tell everyone, this is just a game and if you are getting dictacted on how to play your class, it can become 'unfun' and you will not play it like you would if you had made the decisions on your own. It's your character and you will be paying for it.

Now for my personal thoughts on the Shadow Priest, versus Holy Priest topic.

To me the most important tree of the priest is their Discipline tree. This tree is THE tree for PvE and also PvP. My build starts with this tree first:

- Unbreakable Will - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to resist Stun, Fear, and Silence effects by 15%. OK you Need to max this out first and do not even touch Silent Resolve (lowers your hate when you cast damage spells). I am not gonna be nuking mobs while in a group so I won't have hate from my damage dealing spells.

- Improved Power Word: Shield - 3/3 points
Reduces the duration of your Power Word: Shield's Weakened Soul effect by 15 seconds. My next three points will go here ASAP. Around this level you should start hitting up instances. Most instances now have mobs that scream out 'have your caster AOE me'. As a priest it is usually wise to PW: Shield your caster so he can keel the mobs. Having the shields Weakened Soul Effect cut down by 15 seconds means if need be, you can reshield him again if need be. Usually a flash heal can keep him up when the shield goes away, but you never know.

- Improved Power Word: Fortitude - 2/2 points
Increases the effect of your Power Word: Fortitude spell by 30%. As the text states, you get more out of your buff that everyone asks you for every thirty minutes. If you are gonna be using up your mana on a spell, might as well get the most out of it. You also have the option, or as I call it mistake, of taking a talent called Martyrdom. If you are getting crit on, you are probably gonna drop dead soon, so who cares if you don't get interrupted while casting. Take the Improved Fort here so you can get to the best talents a priest has to get.

- Mental Agility - 5/5 points
Reduces the mana cost of your instant cast spells by 10%. Max this talent out because it is a mana conserver. Your buffs will be cheaper, your shields will be cheaper, SW: Pain will be cheaper, dispell... You get where I am going with this. These are abilities you cast nonstop in PvP and in most PvE situations.

- Mental Strength - 5/5 points
Increases your maximum Mana by 10%. Having nearly 7,000 mana at level 60 with room to upgrade due to me not getting the best items yet, with this talent maxed out I am getting another 700 or so mana. You may think that is nothing, but that to me is a ton. You can cast so many more dispells, throw an extra heal in, etc. To me this talent should be taken by all priests and you can stop here if you really want to. Best new talent priests have in my opinion.

- Inner Focus - 1/1 point
When activated, reduces the Mana cost of your next spell by 100% and increases its critical effect chance by 25% if it is capable of a critical effect. This is my 'boss' spell. Usually in WoW when you are trying to conquer the next big boss for his items, your quest goals, your groups time invested getting to this point in the dungeon, you may be pushed to your limits and beyond. With this spell you have many options once activated: Use it for a free AE heal to your group (costs around 1000 mana at 60), use it as a 'Mana Potion', or as I have been doing when PvP'ing in Hillsbrad, getting off that last spell you may need because PvP doesn't have any set rules, everything is dynamically happening.

- Improved Mana Burn - 2/2 points
Reduces the casting time of your Mana Burn spell by 1 second. About this time you should be hovering around level 30 or so. You will start to engage in alot more PvP since them lazy quest givers send you into zones that mix Horde and Alliance. You on the horde and have to fight them crazy Paladins? Uncle Lothar have you out there to slay some filthy Orcses? Most classes in the game have mana, get rid of it quicker with this talent.

That is the end of the line for me in Discipline. I know others like to tech deeper into that tree, but for me I see no benefit in going any further. I like to go pure Discipline right away due to it being useful from the get-go. From here on out, me and you ZX have different views on what paths to take:

- Holy Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the critical effect chance of your Holy spells by 5%. Probably the most dissapointing starter tree talent is this talent. Since it is needed, I take it so that by the time I am level 60, I get the most out of my mana and my gear.

- Spiritual Healing - 5/5 points
Increases your Mana regeneration rate by 50% after getting a critical effect from your Flash Heal, Heal, Greater Heal, or Prayer of Healing spell. Your Mana may regenerate at a 50% rate while casting. Lasts 10 seconds. Now here is where stuff sorta starts falling into place for me. All of my healing spells will give me a slight chance to regenerate some of my mana back. You see it as oh you rely on luck, but to me I see it as an opportunity I didn't have before.

- Improved Renew - 5/5 points
Increases the amount healed by your Renew spell by 20%. Taking this talent in the end is the better choice than going Shadow and getting improved pain. Whether people agree or not, a priests role is to keep his people alive. Sometimes he won't have help and every bit of mana used, hitpoints renewed counts.

- Improved Healing - 5/5 points
Reduces the Mana cost of your Lesser Heal, Heal, and Greater Heal spells by 10%. Again here, you think 10% isn't much of a difference, but it again is an opportunity to conserve as much mana as you can so you can go the distance. I take this before my next talent because around here I start using mainly Greater Heals for my healing. Greater Heal is pretty mana heavy, yet heals a ton. Healing for a ton on the cheap is nice.

- Inspiration - 5/5 points
Increases your target's armor value from items by 25% for 15 seconds after getting a critical effect from your Flash Heal, Heal, Greater Heal, or Prayer of Healing spell. It's about time for the end game and Armor does come in handy. You think that it might not make a difference, but it does. I mean the warrior didn't have the extra armor buff before, the caster could always use a little splash of extra armor so he can keep AE'ing crazy dark iron dwarves. Maybe the silly rogue drew aggro and you need to give him a spot heal.

Here is where I am not sure what to spend my last three points on. So here are some options I will be testing.

- Master Healer - 3/5 points
Increases the effectiveness of your healing spells by 6%. Every little hitpoint counts if you believe it or not. Using this I kick up my big heal by quite a bit (in my opinion). This is one option.

- Improved Resurrection - 2/2 points
Reduces the resurrection sickness penalty of your Resurrection spell by 25%. Yeh usually when you res someone they really won't benefit too much from it, but it does help a tad, so don't count it out. Better than starting with like 1hp/1 mana the damn Warlocks, Shaman and Paladins give you. Currently I have this and the following talent combo.

- Combat Resurrection - 1/1 point
Brings a dead player back to life with 50% of their health and mana. The target does not suffer from resurrection sickness. Using this and Imp Res for my last three points and so far have used it a bit in PvP and in PvE. Playing on the Horde I found that there are alot of times where we group with two warriors in a single group. If one drops, the other can take over while I get the main tank back up. If a mage is having a bad day and the Lyceum, Dragon Eggs get them, ok so maybe the priest was having a bad day and let him die, he can be brought back up so the group can continue the flow. So far it's been nice and might be my final talent point placement.

- Spirit Tap - 3/5 points
Gives you a 60% chance to gain a 100% bonus to your Spirit after killing a target. For the duration, your Mana may regenerate at a 50% rate while casting. Lasts 15 seconds. When the servers come up and I may be called into action, I am thinking of skipping the combat res for a few days and test spirit tap. There are tons of ambient creatures in instances where I could use some advanced mana regeneration. Though it's not 100% as it could be if I placed in 5 points, as I said 500 times already, it's a chance I didn't have before.

Now that thats that. My build and reasoning has been stated, I will tell you why I choose what I do. The priest at this time to me is forced to go with a build either close to mine or a duplicate. Spirit Regeneration is not that good, so you will be focusing on Intellect. Intellect increases your crit rate on spells. As a priest I well cast spells and lots of them. Since I have Int as my main stat I will be criting alot, so why not have talents that actually can take advantage of the crits. This is the sole reason I take the Holy line late and take it over Shadow. At the early stages of the game, I am not really worried by any encounters. I don't really start worrying about gear until around the time I start getting the talents that like it when I crit. So by the time I am getting decent items and usually I go for the Intellect stuff, though mixing all three stats while keeping intellect your main focus is really what you want to do.

Now, for you and other Shadow Priests, I don't know how well you do in instances. I know most people respec holy before they go in, which to me is funny as hell since they spec shadow for everything else. Sure you get all these cool damage spells, but you really won't have a chance to use them in groups. You wasting mana casting damage spells, means you have less mana to heal. Since you went shadow your healing spells cost the normal mana cost. I may be being naive and not know what your capabilities are as a shadow priest in a group. I heard some people say that talents don't change anything and you can beat stuff without talents, but I really want to see that proved.

In PvP I think I do a decent job. I heal, I pain, I mind blast and my favorite I smite foes down. One on one I can hold my own versus pretty much anyone. I killed a lvl 59 Warrior the other night.

With all my blabbing coming to a close I will say this. If you are in a guild with a few priests, the end game is gonna mean you will be playing with LARGE scale groups. Placing you in say the non focus group with say the poor rogues and warlocks will be nice. You can heal them just fine, and you can cast your shadow magic.

[KingHillBilly]

ok, Wow what a long post. I don't think it was necessary to list all of the talents, but thats ok. I'll break down my opinion for you, because i'm very familiar with both classes. I know tivoli will probably agree with me on a lot of my points and he can put in his two cents when he reads this.

Ok, first off, shadow priest is a bad idea unless you're going to be only soloing or duo pvping your entire career. The shadow/disc spec is much better than the holy/disc spec for obvious reasons, and in a 1v1 situation you can beat any class 1on1, at least I have, some may have been more skilled than others, and depends on gear of course. But basically you're pretty well set up for any kind of 1on1 pvp or 1v1 soloing. The shadowform and added bonus really give you nice damage, I do around 220 a tick shadow word pain, 180-200ish mind flay, and my mind blast is on average around 700 or so with crits in the 1050-1250 range. This along with fear and silence help to rape any caster and with fear or shackle you can beat undead/rogues/warriors without too much trouble. For me the hardest class to beat are other priests and shamans. Shaman totems and purge makes for bad news for a shadow priest. I've beaten plenty of shamans but vs a good one its 50/50 whether I get a silence or a fear off. If you get it off you can win, if not you're toast.

Ok, enough about solo pvp, its good for solo pvp. Do you really plan on only soloing for xp and soloing pvp the whole game? Probably not. Shadow priests can be O-K in group situations, but a holy/disc specced priest will be much more effective for many reasons. Your shadow priest, albeit doing high damage, dies fast without good healing becuase he can only shield, or drop shadowform (take 20% more damage, 2 second heal cooldown, and lose +20% damage), try to heal and proceed to get owned. This in turns will require another priest or good healer to keep you alive, well what about your other group members that are on the rogues/warriors/paladins who really need healing also? You make yourself a huge target to the enemy when you're doing all that crazy damage in a group vs group or more situation and set yourself up to get owned.

As a holy/disc priest you can last much longer in a pvp fight because you won't be constantly spamming 400 mana spells like shadow word pain and mindblast/mind flay. The best role for the priest is a support role in pvp, removing magic from group members, dispelling enemy group members, casting shields and renews/flash heals, the occasioanl group heal, mana burning the target you're on. Low mana cost spells that you can cast from 40yard range which lates you stay back from the fight if you need to. I know you might be thinking , well my shadow priest would do such and such damage and won't need to heal that long, wrong, your warriors/rogues melee don't need mana or stamina to attack. As long as they have health they keep going. Over a period of time they're going to outdamage you because shadow priests run out of mana pretty fast and have no way to recover it all like a mage evocation style.

This point plays just as well in a raid group/instance type situation. Your group can keep doing sustained damage for a much longer period of time with you supporting, healing/shielding/dispelling and maybe throwing in the occasional dot/nuke. It's pretty nice knowing your flash heal can crit for 16-1700 or that your renew hits for 220 a tick or that your group heal heals for 1100 per party member for 800 mana. Those are clutch type things in raids that you need. Inner focus is also a HUGE spell that is very worth in raid situations. For only a 5 minute timer you get a free spell every 5 minutes. What can you do with a free spell as a shadow priest in shadow form to help the group? Nuke, shield someone? How bout 5k worth of healing from a group heal, or a 3k+ greater heal on the main tank.

The huge healling increases and group benefit of a holy/disc priest far outweigh the decrease in damage output from a shadow priest. I've played both of them for quite a bit at max level. The shadow priest is by far my favorite for solo or duo pvping xping and the holy/disc is much better for group pvp or instances for the aforementioned reasons. I'd be more than happy to discuss any yay/nay certain talents and why, for the time being i'm not really going to list in depth why I picked certain talents, but I'm going to choose the following.


Discipline
Unbreakable will 5/5
Improved fortitude 2/2
Improved shield 3/3
mental agility 5/5
Improved mana burn 2/2
Inner fire 3/3
Inner focus 1/1

Holy
Holy specialization 5/5
Spiritual healing 5/5 (only because its bette than 5/5 smite or 5/5 Inspiration, I don't really like spiritual healing though)
Improved renew 5/5 No brainer
Improved healing 5/5 No brainer
Improved flash heal 2/2 You use it all the time, its worth it.
Improved group heal 2/2 You use it in raids when it gets crazy and the tank has been taken care of but everyone else kinda getting pounded and in no immediate danger.
Now the 5th point to get master healer is kinda bleh whatever because you only have one more point. I tried out combat res a bit and while nice, if you need it, you're probably going to die anyway and a 45 minute recast really blows.
Holy fire 1/1 Its only one point, you only have one point left, works for me, gives you another nuke but I rarely use it, this point can be put anywhere.
Master Healer 5/5 No brainer

That's my raid/group pvp spec and I bet tiv's is pretty close although I havent looked at it. This build will give you the most effective tools for keeping your party alive and winning in every situation. Feel free with any questions, I'm happy to reply. Whew long post.

[Tivoli]

Here is my build right now.

Discipline Talents (21 points)

# Unbreakable Will - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to resist Stun, Fear, and Silence effects by 15%.

# Improved Power Word: Shield - 3/3 points
Reduces the duration of your Power Word: Shield's Weakened Soul effect by 15 seconds.

# Improved Power Word: Fortitude - 2/2 points
Increases the effect of your Power Word: Fortitude spell by 30%.

# Mental Agility - 5/5 points
Reduces the mana cost of your instant cast spells by 10%.

# Improved Mana Burn - 2/2 points
Reduces the casting time of your Mana Burn spell by 1 second.

# Mental Strength - 3/5 points
Increases your maximum Mana by 6%.

# Inner Focus - 1/1 point
When activated, reduces the Mana cost of your next spell by 100% and increases its critical effect chance by 25% if it is capable of a critical effect.



Holy Talents (30 points)

# Holy Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the critical effect chance of your Holy spells by 5%.

# Spiritual Healing - 5/5 points
Increases your Mana regeneration rate by 50% after getting a critical effect from your Flash Heal, Heal, Greater Heal, or Prayer of Healing spell. Your Mana may regenerate at a 50% rate while casting. Lasts 10 seconds.

# Improved Renew - 5/5 points
Increases the amount healed by your Renew spell by 20%.

# Improved Resurrection - 2/2 points
Reduces the resurrection sickness penalty of your Resurrection spell by 25%.

# Improved Flash Heal - 2/2 points
Gives you a 70% chance to avoid interruption caused by damage while casting Flash Heal.

# Improved Healing - 5/5 points
Reduces the Mana cost of your Lesser Heal, Heal, and Greater Heal spells by 10%.

# Combat Resurrection - 1/1 point
Brings a dead player back to life with 50% of their health and mana. The target does not suffer from resurrection sickness.

# Master Healer - 5/5 points
Increases the effectiveness of your healing spells by 10%.

A shadow priest IMO is great for soloing and duoing also they are great for groups in the 30 and below range. Once you start getting into the instances post 30 you will slowly lose the ability to use your shadow spells during a fight and start having to heal a lot more. Once you get more into a healing mode the shadow talents get less and less use since you won't be using those spells a lot. The actual raid instances will require more healing and even less damage from priests.

Everyone is entitled to play how they see is the best way for them to play, to me a priest is a support class, my group relies on me to keep them alive, so the holy talents help me do that more effectively by increasing my heals, and reducing the mana costs since i'm usually the one healing the tank in the main group. A shadow priest would be in a secondary group healing rogues and mages, but what happens if the main healer dies and that priest has to take over? You have no combat res to get me back into the fight so now you have to use the mana you have left to heal, and that may not be a lot if you have been using it for DPS. now you could do a spec like this;

Discipline Talents (17 points)

# Unbreakable Will - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to resist Stun, Fear, and Silence effects by 15%.

# Improved Power Word: Shield - 3/3 points
Reduces the duration of your Power Word: Shield's Weakened Soul effect by 15 seconds.

# Improved Power Word: Fortitude - 2/2 points
Increases the effect of your Power Word: Fortitude spell by 30%.

# Mental Agility - 5/5 points
Reduces the mana cost of your instant cast spells by 10%.

# Improved Mana Burn - 2/2 points
Reduces the casting time of your Mana Burn spell by 1 second.



Holy Talents (23 points)

# Holy Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the critical effect chance of your Holy spells by 5%.

# Spiritual Healing - 5/5 points
Increases your Mana regeneration rate by 50% after getting a critical effect from your Flash Heal, Heal, Greater Heal, or Prayer of Healing spell. Your Mana may regenerate at a 50% rate while casting. Lasts 10 seconds.

# Improved Renew - 5/5 points
Increases the amount healed by your Renew spell by 20%.

# Improved Resurrection - 2/2 points
Reduces the resurrection sickness penalty of your Resurrection spell by 25%.

# Improved Flash Heal - 2/2 points
Gives you a 70% chance to avoid interruption caused by damage while casting Flash Heal.

# Improved Healing - 3/5 points
Reduces the Mana cost of your Lesser Heal, Heal, and Greater Heal spells by 6%.

# Combat Resurrection - 1/1 point
Brings a dead player back to life with 50% of their health and mana. The target does not suffer from resurrection sickness.



Shadow Talents (11 points)

# Spirit Tap - 5/5 points
Gives you a 100% chance to gain a 100% bonus to your Spirit after killing a target. For the duration, your Mana may regenerate at a 50% rate while casting. Lasts 15 seconds.

# Improved Shadow Word: Pain - 2/2 points
Increases the duration of your Shadow Word: Pain spell by 6 seconds.

# Shadow Focus - 3/5 points
Reduces your target's chance to resist your Shadow spells by 6%.

# Mind Flay - 1/1 point
Assault the target's mind with Shadow energy, causing 75 damage over 3 seconds and slowing the target to 50% of their movement speed.

Still a viable healer, and you have DPS when you are out on your own, but your kind of spread all over the place. But if you want to be a DPS class be a rogue, mage, or warlock, if you want to be support be a priest, shaman, pally(yes a pally is a support class).

[Envie]

(WARNING: Envie Rant Incoming! All Nurfed with ADD, scroll past!!!)

I'm not sure why people make these titled "Hey <insert name>" posts to one specific player in particular when they really always seem to be looking for general feedback regarding a class talent discussion rather than specific answers from that particular player's own profile. I mean, do you really only care what Tivoli's personal preference is? And if so, why? There are plenty of great level 60 priests out there who could give you information on their findings and experiments. IF you'd read half a dozen other posts by Tivoli, you'd see he's already posted numerous times why he prefers Holy/disc over Shadow... but alas, it seems to be a trend on this forum to address one special player in particular for attention... I guess I must be envious of all the ego stroking! :roll:

There, that bitching over with, I will proceed to give you some small advice. ON PAPER you may look at that incedibly long list of talent descriptions and think most of it looks mighty boring or worthless in comparison to the 'omgway2k00lshad0wUBARnesspowahofDOOM" line, but once again, let me (as other good Nurfed priests will) gently remind you with a gentle smack on the head with the dork-stick , that if you want to be a terrifyingly powerful offensive spell caster, why not go with the interesting and very versatile Warlock class and dish out similar types of spells plus mega AE, a bitchin' pet, the ability to summon, healthstones and soulstones? Or, if that's too complicated for your little brain to wrap around, try the MAGE, and just blow the shit out of everything!

I haven't quite figured out why players want to be priests, but then poo poo the entire Discipline/Holy lines as crap because they dosn't offer enough damage options for their tastes. (why play a priest at all then?)Obviously you're not doing that, you believe they do not offer enough healing benefit to make it worthwhile. I will say, however, that myself, Tiv, KHB, Verb and other priests DO find the benefits worthy enough of investing deeply in them. It's what makes a really good priest different from a whole lot of so-so priests.

IF you're rolling a priest because you want to be a mana/healing powerhouse in instance groups, then you cannot ignore the talents that boost mana regen, crit healing percentages, lower mana costs and spell effectiveness over time. Boosts to Renew, shield and flash heal... those three ALONE make you twice as good as any priest who doesn't use them and the priest who will save the group from wiping entirely. The shadow priest's ubar mind flay isn't going to do him any good when he's laying on the ground DEAD.

Now don't get me wrong... the shadow priest has it's place in WoW... as a soloing and offensive pvp mage-type class it's great. As a backup healer alongside a Holy/disc priest, it's great! If you're in a large guild that will have all it's bases covered with plenty of priests, shamans and druids, then the shadow priest is great for alternative 'fun'... but that's just it... it's FUN, not useful. Your guild will have plenty of warlock/mages to fill the dps caster role, why would they need a shadow priest?

I play a priest to be useful to my groups and guild. I played around with shadow spec to see what it does, at level 60 it's fun to stack and restack all those points ingame instead of with some calculator that doesn't really give you a 'feel' for it. But, in the end, after I got done being Darth Vader priest of doom for awhile, I realized what I was giving up for that offensive capability, which frankly isn't any more impressive than a mage or warlock... and I went back to my true calling.

I'm with KHB, I find the Discipline line to be the understated and often overlooked powerhouse of the three trees. Take another look, seriously... not with stats on paper, but with the overall bonus to everything, and you'll understand why most priests (who play priests to be a healer) go heavily into it. I cannot ignore the boost to my spirit/regen that this line gives me. It may not sound right to you in a forum format, it's hard to explain, but when you play alongside a priest of ANY other talent combo, you find yourself out healing and outlasting them in the long haul.

So, in closing (yes this is a resounding Envie-slap long ass post!!) if you want to do damage, BE A MAGE! If you want to be a priest that is valued and highly sought after in every group you join, then do what a priest does best. If you're determined to be a priest as a solo class (not sure why) then go shadow priest. Don't forget, you can't heal or use any of your holy line in shadow form. Last, but certainly not least, HAVE FUN... don't worry about stats and numbers so much!

Now, my sweeties, it's time for me to have another damn cup of coffee.

- :oops: :oops:

[Mupod]

o_o

[Envie]

o_o

Yeah I know, "Holy Shit!" huh...

[Anomandaris]

I was going to make a lengthy write up but the bank was cleared by 4 lengthy posts so I'm just gonna iterate "If you wanna nuke, roll a mage" :)

[ZX7]

Greetings,

I didn't know Riz was going to post this here, it was more for my guild to leave comments, mainly Verb and Scooter. I appreciate your time in replying.

I see tons of people asking others to respec whether its to protection, holy, frost, arcane, improved sap etc, but when someone asks me to respec I say get another priest becuase im not respec'ing, you cant in retail anyways.

I have played a priest up to 57 this patch and have had really no problems in any instances such as BRD and below. I was hoping to gets some xp in those higher instances as a priest. Alot of ppl have this misconception about shadowpriests and their inability to heal. You can't heal in shadowform which I always had good knowledgable players to group with in instances (which is why pickup groups usualy suck) If everyone is doing their job correctly a shadowpriest can heal efficiently.

However I see the points about the holy tree giving the added bonuses, but my point here is, If you're a good priest do you need those "extras" also we're all here to have fun and a "heal bot" isn't fun imo. When i played my mage and i would see a priest just standing in the back doing nothing its annoying, if they got time to just stand there at full mana why cant they nuke a lil or atleast use their damn wand when lom (which if shadow weaving worked as it said then a shadow wand would help alot to get the full +20%)

Its pretty obvious that Disc is a no brainer, Inner focus and mental strength are nice, I tried those with another shadow variant and worked well. IMO you need those Disc talents listed and doing those you can't get the more benificial holy talents such as combat rez, improved flash heal, master healing...and since we're doing more healing from crits, holy nova looks nice for aggro management. I don't really see the need for improved prayer of healing, i hardly ever use that spell, I might use it after a fight to top everyone off to lessen the down time but other than that I hardly ever use it, with a good warrior that shouldnt be a big issue.

I played the priest back when they had sleep, brainwash and insta mind blast and it was very fun, now we have 1 less CC, 1 less Aggro management spell, and a less effective nuke. IMO its forcing priests to be heal bots instead of healer/CC/Nukers which is what bliz intended to some extent.

I do have experience with some of these talents, I'm not just using this calculater, I use that since I can't be ingame looking at them. Talent placement is very important imo, I used to play D2 HC religiously and 1 missplaced point and i'd remake the character, also the order you get those talents will effect you alot.

Solo PvE and PvP shadow build wins handsdown theres no doubt there, but can a shadow build be viable in group play? remember all those +%'s to shadow dmg will inturn help your vampiric embrace if you're in shadowform or not, so thats like having 2 renews going with mind flay stunning so you dont need to heal asmuch....You are using alot more mana, but the mob is also dropping quicker so less heals are required. Tap would offsent that if you kill lil creatures or your group lets you get the last hit on one. Thats why I dont think its as cut and dry to just say Holy priest is a more efficient healer especially if the shadowbuild is played to its full capabilities.

Thanks for your time and opinions, damn this is a long thread heh

[Envie]

This is all fine and dandy -IF- you have the luxury of "standing in the back doing nothing" as you suggest you've seen priests doing while playing your mage... heh.

Fact is, as Tivoli pointed out, a primary healing priest is rarely EVER going to be standing in the back picking their noses with a full mana bar, and if they are, something weird is happening or someone else is doing all the healing.

Also, you do realize what kind of crap the priest would get if he was nuking, mind-flaying away and suddenly the poo hit the fan and all of a sudden "OOPS I'm OOM!" :oops:

That line only works for mages. Priests would get seriously bitched out for running out of mana for heals if they're nuking away.

Nurfed priests, even when there are two or more of us in a raid, hardly EVER have full mana bars. We are extremely busy in instances, as you may not know the pace at which Dal and other warriors in our team pull mobs. We are kept on our toes, always doing something, at all times... capping someone off with renew, shielding an AE'ing mage or two, resetting buffs that we alternate timers on, taking turns casting greater heals with carefully coordinated voicechat, following /assist to make sure our DoTs are stacked on the primary target, mind soothing mobs so we can run past to the next objective, fading in and out to reduce aggro... you name it, we're doing it.

Same goes for PvP raids. We are BUSY and there's little to no time for nuking except for a well placed Mind Blast now and then to finish someone off. If this isn't your cup of tea, then perhaps the priest really isn't for you. I happen to enjoy this pace and my role in it. I have no desire to be a nuking/shadow priest to play mage/healer hybrid in any instance or pvp encounter as there are several other classes that can outperform me on that level and so I leave that to them.

I'm not sure why you guys persist with this theory that the shadow-priest is a viable alternative for damage dealing. Why do you choose priest in the first place if your focus is to do damage?

Being a healer who can also nuke is cool, but honestly, like Tivoli says, by the time you get to the 50-55+ world of instances (ie. Spires, Strath, Scholo) you will NOT be nuking as much as you will be healing. If this fact somehow bores you or makes you feel defensively put out, then really you should go with the much more damage-interesting warlock or mage.

-

[Dagam]

Just looking at the priest talents and abilities, I'd go discipline/holy too. I haven't played a priest that high but high enough to get a feel for how much talents would help. The Improved Shield is one of the best talents priests get. Twice the Shields, less aggro in instances if you're into instances, instant and one shot. Shield is best when someone needs it the most. Spec in it and you're even better at saving your group. Mental agility (-10% instant spells mana cost) is great as well. Think about how many instants you use, for me I use instants more than I use "lesser heal, heal, greater heal". So it's better than that holy talent in that respect. And mental agility works on buffs, which is icing.

+10% healing effectiveness? Well, shield doesn't count as healing and I expect to use shield a lot. Again rather than go that deep in holy tree I'd put the points into 10% more mana, which is compareable to 10% healing effectiveness, not as good if all you're doing is healing, but would be more suited for my needs. Mana burn is extremely mana efficient for the damage it does, let alone the mana it drains. Improved mana burn would let you mana burn 50% faster. This is what you have against everyone except warriors and rogues. Other shadow priests will fall to you with improved mana burn. Actually I don't see how shadow priests can threaten your groupmates when you're around to shadow protection/dispel them (both instants btw). If you focus on being a good healer you can shut down a lot of classes just by outhealing their damage, dispelling CCs, dispelling/mana burning the enemy. If you go shadow spec you can't shut down anything if the other side has a good healer.

Discipline Talents (35 points)

Unbreakable Will - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to resist Stun, Fear, and Silence effects by 15%.

Martyrdom - 2/2 points
Gives you a 100% chance to gain the Focused Casting effect that lasts for 6 seconds after being the victim of a critical strike. The Focused Casting effect prevents you from losing casting time when taking damage.

Improved Power Word: Shield - 3/3 points
Reduces the duration of your Power Word: Shield's Weakened Soul effect by 15 seconds.

Improved Power Word: Fortitude - 2/2 points
Increases the effect of your Power Word: Fortitude spell by 30%.

Mental Agility - 5/5 points
Reduces the mana cost of your instant cast spells by 10%.

Focused Casting - 1/1 point
While active, you no longer lose casting time from taking damage. Lasts 8 seconds.

Improved Mana Burn - 2/2 points
Reduces the casting time of your Mana Burn spell by 1 second.

Improved Inner Fire - 3/3 points
Increases the effects of your Inner Fire spell by 45%.

Mental Strength - 5/5 points
Increases your maximum Mana by 10%.

Meditation - 5/5 points
Allows 10% of your Mana regeneration to continue while casting.

Inner Focus - 1/1 point
When activated, reduces the Mana cost of your next spell by 100% and increases its critical effect chance by 25% if it is capable of a critical effect.

Divine Spirit - 1/1 point
Holy power infuses the target, increasing their Spirit by 23 for 30 minutes.

Holy Talents (16 points)

Holy Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the critical effect chance of your Holy spells by 5%.

Inspiration - 5/5 points
Increases your target's armor value from items by 25% for 15 seconds after getting a critical effect from your Flash Heal, Heal, Greater Heal, or Prayer of Healing spell.

Improved Renew - 5/5 points
Increases the amount healed by your Renew spell by 20%.

Holy Fire - 1/1 point
Consumes the enemy in flames that cause 90 to 116 Fire damage and an additional 28 Fire damage over 8 seconds.

[Av]

"Shadow priest = viable? vs holy?

It's your character and you will be paying for it.

A shadow priest IMO is great for soloing and duoing

Now, my sweeties, it's time for me to have another damn cup of coffee.

o_o

Now that all the important (what were I thinking?) quotes have been added, I'm summing it up in my own opinion with these words:
Any priest in whatever guild I happen to be in for retail that goes shadow will get smacked. And probably not invited to my group, either. Sure, shadow priests could be interesting, but those skills belong on a warlock, not on the healbot.

Av

[IN-QQQQ]

STOP THE MADNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Roll a Mage. =)

[Jumai]

Stop trying to get good advice from posts in the beta class forums that don't include mathematical support. Seriously, any priest I meet in game that insists this and that about shadow spec, instances, vampiric embrace and whatnot I know has swallowed the priest forum whole.

That being said, I have taken a VERY serious look at the shadow tree, quite a few times. Some of by buddies who are very good use about 21 points in shadow (silence), but this is a duo build. I am not the first to say here that at least dabbling in shadow is very effective for solo and duo, they are extremely successful.

But, I asked myself what I want to do in this game. Broad specrum, I want to make some good friends, form or join a guild, and play the challenging content and take part in challenging pvp fights. This means operating in a group, and I want to be the best at what I do while operating in a group. I expect no less of my friends (pickup groups, I have some tolerance for) and I won't be a hypocrite.

I play my priest becuase I enjoy healing. If I enjoyed backup healing mixed with some other tasks, I would roll a shaman. But I enjoy primary healing more.


I think the shadow priest phenominon can be explained by poor guilds. Basically, a shadow priest is a toon rolled because you want to get into pickup groups easily, even though healing really isn't your thing.

[ZX7]

I'm not sure why you guys persist with this theory that the shadow-priest is a viable alternative for damage dealing. Why do you choose priest in the first place if your focus is to do damage?

That was the reason for bringing this up for discussion, If you asked what i have to someone who hasn't played a priest they would answer Holy no doubt, asking other priests that may have tried many variations may bring up some points that were not considered by the bias non priests players.

I don't by anymeans want to be one of the main damage dealers or even a moderate dmg dealer if I did i'd go back to my mage, but an additional nuke or 2 with benificial returns "could" = a viable shadow priest build.

I've done some figuring and lets say you are in shadowform, you cast shield on your tank, sit and drink as he/she pulls, once at full, which is about when they actually pull the mobs and everyone does their CC'ing etc, the priest was to DoT, Vampiric Embrace, Flay, Flay, Flay here is some figures based on lvl 56 spells, so theres still another rank of sheild,pain, mind blast which would add more returns to this type of logic...

This is without being in shadowform so the end figures you could add 20% to the dmg and then refigure the 20% heal for the group.

All these are adding 10% from darkweave:

Pain 1 - 154 dmg 385 mana 31 group heal w/+4% bonus
Vampiric Embrace - 40 mana
Flay - 439/3 dmg 185 mana 88 group heal w/+8% bonus
Pain 2 -160 dmg 32 group heal
Flay - 470/3 dmg 185 mana 94 group heal w/+12% bonus
Pain 3 - 172 dmg 34 group heal
Mind Blast - 551 dmg 310 mana 110 group heal w/+16% bonus
Pain 4 - 178 dmg 36 group heal w/+20% bonus
Pain 5 - 178 dmg 36 group heal w/+20% bonus
Pain 6 - 148 dmg 30 group heal w/out any bonus from shadowweaving (15 secs is over)
Pain 7 - 148 dmg 30 group heal

Time - 9.5 seconds or you could even add 1.5 more for lag just for mathmatic reasons (+4 ticks of pain after)
Damage - 2,604
Mana spent - 1025, 795 of which gets a 10% reduction so 715 + 310(MB)
Group heal - 530

.39 mana per 1 point of dmg
1.9 mana per 1 hp healed x 5 + pets
14 chances for dmg crits which would equal more healing
14 chances for 1 of each the 5 heals to crit technically 70 chances to crit a heal from vampiric embrace
14 chances to stun the target for 3 seconds = less dmg output by that mob/PC

Considering at 57 I have roughly 5500 mana, that leave 4475 mana to use soley on greater heals etc, thats about 5 straight greater heals for 2500 each give or take a few for renew or even sheild of things get close.

Now if you went into this in shadowform..which I don't see why you couldnt...shield tank, drink, start the above routine and get an added 20% dmg to equal roughly 520 more dmg and 104 more hp healed to your group

Time remains the same 9.5 seconds of casting time (you get 4 ticks of pain after)
Damage - 3124
Mana spent - same 1025
Group heal - 634

.32 mana per 1 point of dmg
1.6 mana per 1 hp healed x 5 + pets

Is 10 seconds that your in shadowform doing significant amounts of dmg while healing for minute amounts going to hurt the group that much that they wont want this type of priest in their group as the main healer?

Don't get me wrong this is way too much thinking into the builds/strategy, but WoW is down and I think people who just straight up say holy is the best, havent taken into consideration all this stuff. Your tank should be able to last that first 10 seconds while you're in shadowform casting the nukes, also how often are you the only healer? I'm hardly ever in a group that theres no paladin or druid present, they could grab the first 1-2 heals if need be or seal of sacrifice to better support the minute group heal im doing over time. Also 2500 dmg in 10 seconds is nothing to shrug off, the mob dies much quicker and you could actually get spirit tap to regen that 1025 mana you just spent on nuking/HoT but that would mean losing a valuble talent to the shadow build..maybe shadow reach could be dropped *shrug*

Does this make any sense or do you still think holy is hands down the better style to play?

Its nice there is some good feedback coming from this instead of the "OMGWTFSHADOWPRIESTIZTEHGEYZOR nerf them" i'd get from the wow boards.

Again thanks for reading and giving your opinions.

[Adinion]

My shadow priest in OB/ST/Retail is as follows:

Discipline Talents (18 points)

Unbreakable Will - 5/5 points
Improved Power Word: Shield - 3/3 points
Improved Power Word: Fortitude - 2/2 points
Mental Agility - 5/5 points
Improved Mana Burn - 2/2 points

Shadow Talents (33 points)

Spirit Tap - 5/5 points
Improved Shadow Word: Pain - 2/2 points
Shadow Focus - 3/5 points
Improved Mind Blast - 5/5 points
Improved Psychic Scream - 2/2 points
Mind Flay - 1/1 point
Silence - 1/1
Shadow Reach - 3/3 points
Vampiric Embrace - 1/1 point
Shadow Weaving - 5/5 points
Darkness - 5/5 points
Shadowform - 1/1 point

-Edit: I read Envie's post about playing a warlock or mage if you want to do damage. Decided I will probably go holy, due to the fact that my guild will be doing a lot of 5v5 and instances.

[Real]

Envie and his/her long posts for teh win!

[Stabface]

Envie and his/her long posts for teh win!

hmm. Real?

I knew a Real once, from that webgame Utopia. Way back. is that you?

[Saxony]

Two things that occur to me, one is; why does everyone take improved word of pain? It seems like this spell is plenty long without adding 1/3 of the time on. Yes this makes it more efficient, but most combats will be over before it's done anyways. If they are fleeing and you need to do more damage then drop a mind flay on them and whack away. I guess it's relatively cheap, but 2 talent points is 2 talent points no matter how you slice it, there's a lot of nice priest talents that could save your life/speed up your dps so that the combat doesn't have to go longer then 18 seconds anyways.

Secondly, to the guy who posted about shadow priest grouping. Your information was all very interesting and it should be noted that you can add in a fear in there somewhere especially with all your mind flaying and prevent some group damage. But I have to say that your mana to heal comparison is a little optimistic. How often do you think that a group heal is going to be fully efficient. Maybe if you were grouped with a puller, tank, and a warlock you'd get 3 people. So at most you can get 60% of the numbers you quoted, but more then likely it'll be about 20% of that. So really not as effective healing as you make it appear. Still nice though.

Finally, I'll say that I'm going to make an undead shadow priest on the PVP server. I didn't originally intend him to be my main, but the way hunters are looking that maybe the case. I would have to agree that while they might not be significantly different from priests when healing in things like PVP for instances they do not have the mana efficiency to maintain a fast pace. Which in some instances is required. As a shadow priest I would probably attempt to get into a group with a shaman or druid, so that we could stack our buffs and I could be dps while they were healing, or we could share the responsibility. There are some instances that a shadow priest could heal in, or if he was well equipped eventually all group instances. My main intention for my shadow priest is all PVP. He was going to be my pet project after I got my hunter geared up and only able to advance through raiding times.

-Saxony Beach

P.S. My UD Priests name is Kankure Soars

[ZX7]

Secondly, to the guy who posted about shadow priest grouping. Your information was all very interesting and it should be noted that you can add in a fear in there somewhere especially with all your mind flaying and prevent some group damage. But I have to say that your mana to heal comparison is a little optimistic. How often do you think that a group heal is going to be fully efficient. Maybe if you were grouped with a puller, tank, and a warlock you'd get 3 people. So at most you can get 60% of the numbers you quoted, but more then likely it'll be about 20% of that. So really not as effective healing as you make it appear. Still nice though.

Fear in instances is usually bad, except you could fear and flay asap so it doesnt go baf.

Not sure I understand the rest of this paragraph tho? I'm not at all saying the group heal from Vampiric Embrace would be sufficient for the entire fight, but that it "should" hold everyone over untill the first 10 seconds is up and you can drop out of shadowform, dont forget presheilding the tank should buy you atleast 5 seconds vs an elite mob, now boss mobs are a different story since they do massive dmg. Regardless the group heal from Vampiric Embrace was based on low dmg stats not taking into consideration any crits from dmg nor crits from the heal effect from VE. And I also neglected to say you could just DoT/VE all the mobs and stay out of shadowform, each tick of pain would heal for 35 ish x 2 or more mobs, while renew is on your tank.

What exactly does the rest of that mean?

[Pokett]

its interesting reading - all these priests that say "'if you want to nuke play a warlock or mage."

Well, what if i'm a mage and i want to heal? for many mages, shadow priests seem to offer the best of both worlds, especially for PvP.

I see nothing wrong with a Shadow/Disc combo or the combo of all three trees Tivoli posted earlier - but thats just one gnome mage's opinion!

[Jumai]

Pokett: the problem with being a nukin' priest in PvP that can drop out of shadowform and heal when it's badly needed (imho anyway) is the range on mind flay. To avoid going in to group role slots for pvp, we'll assume an open ended fight, raid group vs raid group. The shadow priest looks a little worse when you cap the number of slots available.

To be nuking from shadow form, you have to be just 20 yards away. Even if you buy Shadow Reach, you're just 24 yards away. This is too close to the front for your groupmates to protect you properly. Thus, you become an accessable soft target, and very shortly thereafter, you become dead. You can't even stand right on the range line, because then one step backwards by your target and flay breaks, you have to move. With all the movement that happens in pvp, with shadow reach and using a channeling attack, you need to be 21-22 yards out max.

[Pokett]

i see what you are saying, Jumai, but PvP isn't always group oriented, and as a mage i can safely say it almost never stays range oriented, either. as you mentioned, movement happens in pvp, and as a cloth caster most of that movement is usually in my direction.

also, i find a shadow priest can be dangerous out of shadowform and i would never consider entering a group pvp fight in shadowform. you don't have to rely on flay to do all your dps, either, tho i won't deny its great when someone gets near.

i think of the shadow priest as one who does the traditional role as required in all situations, but also someone who can take care of himself if needed. This because of the added capability of bonking you squarely upside the noggin' when necessary, and as we all know, its *always* necessary!

[ZX7]

with Shadow Reach mind blast and Pain are 35 yards, Flay is 30 (I believe)and does not break when the mob/PC goes out of range, also this slows them 50% so you can usually get another flay off then a MB, or just a MB if they do happen to get out of range, they hardly ever get out of MB range with Shadow Reach spec'd. I'd actually rather use flay twice than MB once since you get 6 chances to crit and 2 chances incase one is resisted and they are more mana efficent.

[Real]

Envie and his/her long posts for teh win!

hmm. Real?

I knew a Real once, from that webgame Utopia. Way back. is that you?

Sorry never even herd of the game x_x

[Saxony]

[quote]What exactly does the rest of that mean?

What that means is healing someone that is at full health doesn't do squat. So if you are counting numbers off of a group heal, then for each group member that hasn't been injured you're getting no benefit. If you have a rogue, and a mage as group members for instance and neither has been hit then you are only getting 60% of the actual value of your theoretical group heal. I don't know how to explain this more clearly then that, so maybe read it a couple more times if you still don't get it.

-Saxony

[ZX7]

No it doesnt make sense becuase your tank is still getting that group heal, whether the others are taking dmg or not the numbers are still correct, not 60% or 20% like you stated. The mana to heal ratio is still the same.

So you're saying that if they are getting group healed for 634 that only 60%(380) of it is being useful? or rather 20%(126) if only the tank is being dmg'd....you obviously missed the point as to why i posted that mana to heal ratio etc. The heal is a bonus HoT to hold the tank over after the shield drops. Like i said in a previous post this healing is by no means efficient or significant enough to use the entire fight, but after doing 3k dmg and healing for 630 for a mere 1k mana thats pretty good use of mana imo and you shift and play heal bot if needed.

Instead of dropping subtle insults about reading your statement over again, read mine and tell me where your statement even has any effect on those numbers. Maybe I miss calculated something if thats the case.

I have read alot of posts by priests and they hardly ever support their "Priests are meant to be healers, Holy is for healers" type of statement with any facts, numbers or situations. More mana efficent heals doesnt really cut it imo. That scenario up there uses almost the same mana as greater heal, and allows the tank to take 1500 dmg within the first 10 seconds of a fight and significantly lower the mobs hp and possibly dmg output if stunned.

I guess I don't see the reasoning why priests need to be holy to be good healers, I've never had a problem in instances such as BRD(thats the highest i went to with my priest) and i still get repeat invites, so it cant suck that bad. When i played my mage it seemed the groups of dwarfs near bael'gear (sp) were the hardest thing about that instance, the rest could be CC'd easily and those dwarfs were very easy- medics own ^^ I can see maybe the need if theres multiple mobs not being CC'd somehow, but even then if organized well enough I don't see a problem

[Halfscrub]

While i didn't make this post, I want to go ahead and extend my thanks to all the priests who have responded here with their builds. I very much agree with all of your posts as i know how important it is to know that you have someone behind you keeping you alive when you cannot keep yourself alive. I've redirected the link to this topic along with a post so that some friends i know who plan on playing priest can get a good look at what all the different utilities of a priest are, not just the 'omgway2k00lshad0wUBARnesspowahofDOOM' priests, which had me seriously concerned. As they were dead set on being that way, screw everyone else.

Thanks.

P.S. Your posts aren't even the longest this time Envie :o

[Anomandaris]

...Flay is 30 (I believe)...

Base flay range is 20 yards, 3 points in Shadow Reach increase it by 20% making it 24 yards.

[BrandX]

Actually I think there is a bug making the extended ranges of mind flay and mind blast 23 and 35 yards instead of 24 and 36 yards. (Same for shadow word: pain.)

[Adinion]

I pretty much came up with a new build. I thought about how I've played a mage/warlock and a priest (not that far) but I enjoy being a support more then anything else, so shadow is pointless.

So here goes my build that I know I will like, and seems to be useful.

Discipline Talents (28 points)
-Unbreakable Will - 5/5 points
-Improved Power Word: Shield - 3/3 points
-Improved Power Word: Fortitude - 2/2
-Mental Agility - 5/5 points
-Improved Mana Burn - 2/2 points
-Mental Strength - 5/5 points
-Inner Focus - 1/1 poin
-Meditation - 5/5 points

Holy Talents (23)
-Holy Specialization - 5/5 points
-Inspiration - 5/5 points
-Improved Renew - 5/5 points
-Improved Resurrection - 1/2 point
-Improved Flash Heal - 2/2 points
-Improved Healing - 5/5 points

To me this is the most mana effecient priest I can come up with. This is probably the best build I have made for myself, that I know I will like.

[Healo]

Here's my ideal build in order of aquisition:

Unbreakable Will: 5/5 (discipline)

Improved PW:Shield: 3/3 (discipline)

Blackout: 5/5 (shadow)

Shadow Focus: 5/5 (shadow)

Mind Flay: 1/1 (shadow)

Holy Specialization: 5/5 (holy)

Spiritual Healing: 5/5 (holy)

Improved Renew: 5/5 (holy)

Improved Healing: 3/5 (holy)

Improved Resurrection: 2/2 (holy)

Combat Resurrection: 1/1 (holy)

Improved SW:Pain: 2/2 (shadow)

Improved Mind Blast: 2/5 (shadow)

Shadow Reach: 3/3 (shadow)

Improved Psychic Scream: 2/2 (shadow)

Silence: 1/1 (shadow)

Vampiric Embrace: 1/1 (shadow)


Total:

Shadow: 22 points
Holy: 21 points
Discipline: 8 points



The reasoning here is that you will be adequate to perform the role of "main healer" with renew and greater heals on top of vampiric embrace, while still being very strong in PvP with silence, flay, and reach.

[Eko]

I'm going to make a Priest come Retail.. And I plan on being a heal bot. I like it.

[Jumai]

At this time, I'm gonna have to reccommend against meditation, especially without the spirit buff. Losing chaincasting ability and crit chance from INT hurts, so you're going to have to balance INT and SPI, probably with INT a little ways ahead. And since it's 0.3 mana per tick per spirit, 10% is getting you nowhere without astronomical spirit values.

[Krilj]

For a group oriented PvP priest, I'd use Tivoli's build 100%. For those that might be playing more with group oriented PvE in mind I'd change it a bit to:

Discipline Talents (21 points)

# Unbreakable Will - 5/5 points
# Improved Power Word: Shield - 3/3 points
# Improved Power Word: Fortitude - 2/2 points
# Mental Agility - 5/5 points
# Mental Strength - 5/5 points
# Inner Focus - 1/1 point

Holy Talents (25 points)

# Holy Specialization - 5/5 points
# Spiritual Healing - 5/5 points
# Improved Renew - 5/5 points
# Subtlety - 5/5 points
# Improved Resurrection - 2/2 points
# Improved Flash Heal - 2/2 points
# Combat Resurrection - 1/1 point

Shadow:

# Spirit Tap - 5/5 points - makes soloing a little less painful, and is kinda cute when you shoot a rat or other ambient mob to get free mana regen in the middle of a fight.

For those that want to solo:
Hey, do whatever you want. No one depends on you so it doesn't matter if you are all shadow spec. Just don't be surprised if you get shunned for the holy spec priest with combat res when groups go looking for a healer. Not that it will probably matter that much... I got 10 tells a night sometimes from desperate pickup groups wanting to go to sunken temple or blackrock the last few closed beta pushes.

[Saxony]

1.6 mana per 1 hp healed x 5 + pets

Look, guy, all I'm saying is that this statement is misleading. I am in fact going shadow priest, so don't give me a lecture about how people are ignorant about priests saying only holy is viable. Just read wtf I say and stop condescending me. If you still don't get it then I give up have someone else explain it to you. That quote is from your post, normally I would assume that goes without saying, but with you I'm not sure anymore. How ironic is it that you're the one telling me to reread your post, when clearly you don't even know what it says.

-Saxony

[ZX7]

Regardless of your points, the mana -hp ratio is the same 1.6 mana per 1 hp healed. Its not hard to comprehend the others being healed is a bonus. With a good warrior he'll be the only one taking damage. I didnt think that was so hard to comprehend. Next time I'll spell it out even better than I have for those that need a readme to understand mathmatical figures.

I thought this was enough for you:


No it doesnt make sense becuase your tank is still getting that group heal, whether the others are taking dmg or not the numbers are still correct, not 60% or 20% like you stated. The mana to heal ratio is still the same.

You'll notice towards the end it says "The mana to heal ratio is still the same" 1.6 mana per 1 hp healed

Did you fail math class?

I'm asking for some facts or figures to back up why Holy is better, so far we got more mana efficient heals, chance to crit, not be interupted. My next question is....do those make the holy tree that much better if you think about the scenario I posted.

[Hybby]

And since it's 0.3 mana per tick per spirit, 10% is getting you nowhere without astronomical spirit values.

I'm sitting at 132 spi (according to Thott (can't check ingame right now)) and I'm sitting at roughly 65-70 mana per tick regen.

How is that astronomical?