Paladin damage output

[tufy]

Heya. I have a little (retarded, as Otzo stated :p) question. A few days ago, we were discussing Paladins post patch 1.9, their role in pvp and the damage output in particular. Since there seem to be some professionals gathering around here, I have a series of questions that I'm hoping to get an answer to:

1. What do you feel Paladin's role in mass pvp is? Which is the optimum build to fulfill this role?

2. If we compare strength/agility (and 2,5k mana ftw. :p) vs. a +dmg Paladin, which would do more damage (remember, I'm not asking for overall effectiveness in pvp, I'm simply asking, which would have more raw damage output) with respective talent build? How much would either of those rely on procs vs. controlled dps and how much mana would it drain

3. Small combat-wise (I'm talking duels or 1v1 pvp), which paladin would be more effective, the +dmg one or the Strength one?

And finally

4. Overall, which Paladin would fare best in various situations, from single combat, over AB combat to mass AV style pvp and which would do best in pve? All I need is a build (31/0/20, 0/20/31, etc.) and a respective gear (emphasis on strength, emphasis on +dmg/healing and intellect, mixed gear).

If you feel anything else should be mentioned on this subject, I'd be greatful as well.

Thank you in advance for your replies.

[Otzo]

/sigh

[Savor]

heal

[tufy]

heal

/sigh

I'm sorry, but this is an insufficient answer. I need the actual comparison of dps output of both strength and +dmg paladin and the comparison of the effectiveness of support vs. dps role in pvp. I for one agree with the support role, but I lack the knowledge about the specific mechanisms (strength bonuses to damage vs. +dmg bonuses to seals, mana efficiency, etc.) of the class to PROVE that claim, that's what I'm asking for. Pure "heal" will not be enough for these guys. What I need is data, basically:

1. Strength paladin does x damage per second
2. +dmg paladin does y damage per second

So: Since y > x, +dmg paladin is better dps - wise.

Since +dmg paladin also has talents in trees that increase healing efficiency, the class is better overall with x/y/z build

Or:

Since X > Y, strength paladin is better dps - wise. The mana pool of the class will be Z, which means the class will be less effective in supportive role. Hence, the x/y/z build is good for such circumstances and fares worse in such circumstances.

THAT is what I need. Please.

[Otzo]

heal

dps role in pvp.
.

the what?

[Otzo]

Oh ffs i pressed quote not edit, someone delete the spam.

[tufy]

heal

dps role in pvp.
.

the what?

The dps role. As in, the retrinoob who runs to the front line, casts Consecration breaking all the sheeps and pretends he can kill someone with his mighty twohanded hammer. Dps role.

Draz, the guy has 80 days played and COMPLETELY disregards any supportive role. I just want a proof that he is doing it wrong, that he would be more effective as a supporter, that's all. But I can only do that if I can prove that he loses nothing in smallscale combat which he holds in high regard. I was hoping you'll understand. If you don't, just don't say a thing, please.

[Mylar]

heal

/sigh

I'm sorry, but this is an insufficient answer. I need the actual comparison of dps output of both strength and +dmg paladin and the comparison of the effectiveness of support vs. dps role in pvp. I for one agree with the support role, but I lack the knowledge about the specific mechanisms (strength bonuses to damage vs. +dmg bonuses to seals, mana efficiency, etc.) of the class to PROVE that claim, that's what I'm asking for. Pure "heal" will not be enough for these guys. What I need is data, basically:

1. Strength paladin does x damage per second
2. +dmg paladin does y damage per second

So: Since y > x, +dmg paladin is better dps - wise.

Since +dmg paladin also has talents in trees that increase healing efficiency, the class is better overall with x/y/z build

Or:

Since X > Y, strength paladin is better dps - wise. The mana pool of the class will be Z, which means the class will be less effective in supportive role. Hence, the x/y/z build is good for such circumstances and fares worse in such circumstances.

THAT is what I need. Please.

You dont NEED to know anything else, a pally in pvp is SUPPORT. He is the single best group pvp support class and everytime i meet a pally in pvp running at me with helm of endless rage, asscandy and drake talon pauldrons/flameguards i laugh my fucking ass off. Sure he can do damage, but the warrior (whos cursing the fucking pally to hell and back) with TuF and pvp-blues is one hell of alot better at it.

Bottom line: a pally in group pvp is support: heals, dispells, cc's/interrupts and buffs. THIS IS FUCKING ALL. (sure you can finish a wounded target with HoW or a melee hit if hes close and you have nothing better to do at that instance, but thats IT)

This is fact, you can stop your internal monologue right there, just stop, drop and rofl.

Accept it, apologize to all the warriors/mages/warlocks(this is actually true, i mean COME THE FUCK ON! "I rly need ring of blackrock, stfu mages") in your guild for all the dps-gear you claimed before they all had what they needed and then start claiming heal/mana gear over pissed off priests/druids ^^

[Otzo]

and thank god hes paladin alt is only lvl 40 something so he wouldn't be ninjaing valor spaulders now. =)

[tufy]

and thank god hes paladin alt is only lvl 40 something so he wouldn't be ninjaing valor spaulders now. =)

42 :D Nor would I. You know why? Because they have no intellect. I mean, Lilly has 2k mana at my level and the dude I was talking to claims 2,2k mana is enough at LVL 60!!!

Mylar, you don't need to tell me about support, but as I said, I need numbers. I have 6 days played on my Pally at lvl 42, he has 80 days played and rank 12, with 0 intellect gear (basically, a warrioradin). When I said that's only gonna suffice for a few Holy Lights, not even counting other spells, he simply claimed he will only get 3-4 windows to heal himself. Any try to show him paladin as a support unit is reflected, claiming that he does damage alone and doesn't need to support anyone.

Hm... let's try this the other way: since he claims he does enough damage, can I get damage output comparison between paladin and warrior with similar endgame gear? I doubt it'll help, cuz he'll claim he can still heal (how, I have no idea, with his mana pool, I'd be scared to run around, besides, my playstyle with pally demands a higher mana pool simply because I use Judgements of all kinds a lot). Oh, he also stated that "Seal of Command is laughable damage wise post 1.9 and will never reach the damage done by SoC before 1.9. Majority of his damage thus comes from physical (white) damage".

Perhaps I made a mistake myself since I allowed myself to be dragged into a dps only discussion... Too bad you don't speak my language (slovene), I'd give you a direct link to the forum discussion... oh well, no help here. Seems like official forums will be more useful. :/

[Otzo]

Depends really where he does the damage, solo? or in some Arathi Basin GY Zerg place where everyone is too stupid to tag the flag/defend the flag. ;)

Besides like Mylar said your support, don't care about how much dmg you do think about how the priests can save the others thanks to your blessing of protection or conc aura, and how i could rape everything if youd keep blessing of freedom on me, and having over 5k armor helps nicely too to survive for you. :P

[RubiksCube]

As one of the few paladins of the board, I'll try to answer your question (at least as far as I understood it).

A Retribution specced paladin will have a higher damage benefit through attackpower and agility than through spell damage, because of vengeance which gives 15% more damage after a critical strike for both physical and holy damage and sanctity aura which further increases holy damage by 10%.

The higher the crit chance, the more often vengeance will be up. Both seal of command and judgement of command factor the melee critchance, so agility also gives an advantage here.

The question if 2.5k mana is enough at level 60 is basically retarted, you need mana to do damage and heal. The way the damage capabilities of a paladin are set up you will be able to still concentrate on cleansing and healing while dealing damage (because paladins mostly rely on procs), so your main goal still will be healing (simply because you're one of only 3 classes capable of healing, while there are 5 other classes capable of doing dps).

That 4-5k mana really isnt hard to get, while still focussing around melee stats. There are lots of items focussing on both. Good things to get for example are rings like Band of Sulfuras, it has 23 Int, so you can get a melee focussed ring as your second. Legplates and Girdle of the Fallen Crusader are other endgame equipment parts, pretty much set for a melee paladin.

[tufy]

That's better, thanks :)

So, if I understand right, retribution paladin would gain more from strength/agi gear and small emphasis on intellect because of Vengence procs? How about a holy paladin? Would it still be worth making emphasis on strength when talking pure dps, considering SoC is a proc that does 70% of actual hit's damage? Or would you benefit more by equipping more intellect (for larger mana pool) and relying on Judgements?

Another question: if you would compare holy (31/0/20) vs. retribution (20/0/31), which would be more effective in small combat and how would retribution paladin fare as a support unit?

And finally (this is for my Lilly) - I'm trying to decide between 31/0/20 (for Holy Shock) and 21/0/30 (for 2h spec and Vengeance) builds. As with my mage, I would like to achieve maximum possible usefulness in various situations. When in combat, I mainly use Blessing of Wisdom and a combination of Judgement of Crusader and Seal of Command. Versus multiple mobs and enemy players, I'm using heals mostly and relying on Judgements to do damage (+ Cleanse and Blessings, of course :)). Considering my playstyle is extremely manaintensive, would you suggest a different playstyle or simply a larger mana pool (at level 42 I have slightly over 2k mana)?

[RubiksCube]

Well, as a holy paladin you would have to stack spell damage for holy shock and general +healing.

Thing is you won't get enough spell damage to gain as much damage as you gain from vengeance and sanctity aura.

See, as a retribution specced paladin you're pretty much independant from stats as the most damage you gain is from these to talents.

[SandDemon]

Holy/ret paladins are a lot better at frontloaded damage.

Hammer of Justice
Consecrate
Holy Shock
Judgement of Command
DeathRay
Explosive
Hammer of Wrath
/wave

Still Paladin DPS is shit - I'm living proof that paladins can heal better than 99% of people out there (still dont believe in the 1%, but whatever)...and freaking awesome in group pvp as support.

Ohhh, so happy I got my Voodoo stick offhand last night Rubiks :) That's another 1% spell crit....

[RubiksCube]

/spit on people not using plate and shields ;)

j/kidding grats SD :D

[Blu]

http://img64.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wow20060206232354204gf.jpg

watch out for evil dpscritpalaydins!

http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=15216

[RubiksCube]

I'm so crying seeing that screenshot.

[The Arc]

http://www.nurfed.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6634

[The Arc]

http://img64.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wow20060206232354204gf.jpg

watch out for evil dpscritpalaydins!

http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=15216

That is fucked up.

[dNa]

Just heal. Dont even try to deal damage priests do actually more dmg and i dont think there is any other class as worse as paladin for damage.

[Sar]

Just heal. Dont even try to deal damage priests do actually more dmg and i dont think there is any other class as worse as paladin for damage.

OMFG!! but this is true. every class in WoW can be skilled/equipped to do some decent damage, besides the pally :roll:

[Uziel]

A properly geared and specced paladin can do crazy burst DPS.

Judgement of the Crusader, Seal of Command, Hammer of Justice, Judgement of Command, Seal of Command, Repentance, Judgement of Command, Seal of Command, Iron Grenade, Judgement of Command, Hammer of Wrath can kill pretty much anyone and with bubbles/heal its easy to pull off.

Sadly, my paladin in pvp armor does more DPS than my warrior. =/

[Drekor]

Ok, despite the sheer idiocy that is a DPSadin...

Pure melee will result in bigger damage(obviously with a standard 13/7/31 spec). Essentially the only things that get any sort of meaningful boost from +damage is SoC and JoC. SoC gets something like 25% of the bonus and JoC gets 43% of the bonus. Now your AP boosts SoC damage as well, your melee crits trigger vengeance boosting your damage, your melee crit makes SoC and JoC crit more often. In the end you end up with more damage.

However, with +damage you don't horribly gimp yourself as you can still heal and support because of the simple fact +damage gear also comes with lots of intellect and mana regen and in some cases spell crit.

Either way my only advice I can give is reroll to a warrior, you'll do signficantly more damage and you won't have to face the laughter as the horde /rofl at you because of how horribly gimp you are.

[Noristat]

Paladin DPS is an oxymoron.

2-hand and vengeance is laughable.

That paladin with 80 days played....eh, tell him to shoot himself.

[LaughinMan]

my lvl 41 pally has 2.9k mana and still, its not enough XD
now i respecced to holy, at least i get a few free heals :P

[Uziel]

Either way my only advice I can give is reroll to a warrior, you'll do signficantly more damage and you won't have to face the laughter as the horde /rofl at you because of how horribly gimp you are.

You should make a caveat, as you will do signifcant more damage if you spec arms or fury.

I have a warrior but I'm full protection spec and pretty well geared (full might, quel'serrar, etc) but my damage output in pvp is horrible compared to my paladin (4500 hp, 4000 mp, 22% crit, 670 ap all unbuffed with 31 retribution, 20 holy)

[bierbaum]

31/20 arms fury and then ull do dmg idiot oO

[Uziel]

31/20 arms fury and then ull do dmg idiot oO
I hope you aren't responding to me; I've been 31/20 before and I certainly know how to do high DPS as a warrior as well as have the gear for it.

I also my guild's MT and I made the decision to go full protection to ease into the raid content we are still learning and it's helped immensely. Its not necessary, as most tanks will tell you, but it does certainly help.

[bierbaum]

Yeah , but you still said that your Pala is doing more dps now i know at least why