Question for Thaloc

[HeychP]

Yo,

Just curious to know, why do you use swords and not daggers?

I mean like, you cant backstab, you get less crits...and the dmg of your swords and the leet daggers have almost the same amount of dps.

[hardknox]

Searches for screenshots where i can fully see Thaloc and his uber looks.

[HeychP]

Searches for screenshots where i can fully see Thaloc and his uber looks.

lol his rogue looks real godamn badasss, no doubt on that.

[Seijin]

I believe he uses swords cause they have higher dmg and slower speed, so your ss do a lot of damage. Currently its better to use the sword and SS combos to win. It does more damage according to tests in-game. Most people go stunning and SS. I personally prefer the dagger spec with backstab, you can get good damage with it still though. Daggers fit my playstyle.

[HeychP]

I believe he uses swords cause they have higher dmg and slower speed, so your ss do a lot of damage. Currently its better to use the sword and SS combos to win. It does more damage according to tests in-game. Most people go stunning and SS. I personally prefer the dagger spec with backstab, you can get good damage with it still though. Daggers fit my playstyle.

So its basically a question about playstyle heh?

bah.

[hardknox]

kk now that i caught a tiny glimpse of what thaloc looks like from the nurfed 4 vid im dying to know what his set up is.

He looks like a berzerker from AC2

[HeychP]

kk now that i caught a tiny glimpse of what thaloc looks like from the nurfed 4 vid im dying to know what his set up is.

He looks like a berzerker from AC2

He looks awesome. And would love to duel his playstyle with the rogue.

[Thaloc]

Well a few things...

First, people who use daggers generally do not combat spec all the way up to the 5% chance to crit with daggers talent, which makes supposedly critting more with daggers non-existent...unless you count swinging more as critting more, which in theory it is I suppose =]

But more importantly, as someone else mentioned, I uses swords mostly because they have a higher top end damage, which results in higher damage sinister strikes. The build I use now allows me for a lot more versatility than a dagger based build in Subtelty.

The main advantage is that I am not a circumstance Rogue. If I get caught by someone while i'm not in stealth, I still have a very strong chance of winning because of my pure DPS. I do not rely on getting behind someone for Ambushes or backstabs, and in large fights against multiple people, I can practically stand still and do maximum output, instead of worrying about gouging and getting behind people. Also with daggers, when multiple people are targetting you it's very difficult to get behind them to do your maximum damage...

As for the SS/Stun thing I don't do pure stuns with SS, but I mix them in as necessary to make up for the fact that i'm not Undead =]

Hope this helps!

P.S. Oh the reason I use an off-hand sword is because it has increased defense and armor, which help's tremendously vs other melee classes.

[Dagam]

Thaloc you're a sword combat spec? I'm a combat spec too, used to swear by swords but now I swear by maces. The sword spec gives you an extra attack or maybe 100-150 extra damage, but the mace spec inhibits their DPS for 3 seconds, basically preventing 3x enemy DPS damage. The downside of mace stun is that you can't plan for when it goes off. Sometimes it goes off when you kidney shot. On the other hand extra damage is never inappropriate. What's your build Thaloc?

[HeychP]

Well a few things...

First, people who use daggers generally do not combat spec all the way up to the 5% chance to crit with daggers talent, which makes supposedly critting more with daggers non-existent...unless you count swinging more as critting more, which in theory it is I suppose =]

But more importantly, as someone else mentioned, I uses swords mostly because they have a higher top end damage, which results in higher damage sinister strikes. The build I use now allows me for a lot more versatility than a dagger based build in Subtelty.

The main advantage is that I am not a circumstance Rogue. If I get caught by someone while i'm not in stealth, I still have a very strong chance of winning because of my pure DPS. I do not rely on getting behind someone for Ambushes or backstabs, and in large fights against multiple people, I can practically stand still and do maximum output, instead of worrying about gouging and getting behind people. Also with daggers, when multiple people are targetting you it's very difficult to get behind them to do your maximum damage...

As for the SS/Stun thing I don't do pure stuns with SS, but I mix them in as necessary to make up for the fact that i'm not Undead =]

Hope this helps!

P.S. Oh the reason I use an off-hand sword is because it has increased defense and armor, which help's tremendously vs other melee classes.

Thanks for answering my question. :D

But the thing with my rogue is that he will be combat speced, max crits, riposte, adrenaline rush. So daggers would be better for me no? Well, I still need to bring him tilll 60 lol, all these stuffs are jsut in my head. :P
Ill keep him as an alt and ill be looking forward to duel your ss rogue :D.

[MrO]

Well a few things...

First, people who use daggers generally do not combat spec all the way up to the 5% chance to crit with daggers talent, which makes supposedly critting more with daggers non-existent...unless you count swinging more as critting more, which in theory it is I suppose =]

But more importantly, as someone else mentioned, I uses swords mostly because they have a higher top end damage, which results in higher damage sinister strikes. The build I use now allows me for a lot more versatility than a dagger based build in Subtelty.

The main advantage is that I am not a circumstance Rogue. If I get caught by someone while i'm not in stealth, I still have a very strong chance of winning because of my pure DPS. I do not rely on getting behind someone for Ambushes or backstabs, and in large fights against multiple people, I can practically stand still and do maximum output, instead of worrying about gouging and getting behind people. Also with daggers, when multiple people are targetting you it's very difficult to get behind them to do your maximum damage...

As for the SS/Stun thing I don't do pure stuns with SS, but I mix them in as necessary to make up for the fact that i'm not Undead =]

Hope this helps!

P.S. Oh the reason I use an off-hand sword is because it has increased defense and armor, which help's tremendously vs other melee classes.

Thanks for answering my question. :D

But the thing with my rogue is that he will be combat speced, max crits, riposte, adrenaline rush. So daggers would be better for me no? Well, I still need to bring him tilll 60 lol, all these stuffs are jsut in my head. :P
Ill keep him as an alt and ill be looking forward to duel your ss rogue :D.

Adrenaline rush and a sword is insane ;) You have more energy for more sinister strikes, thus more damage than a crappy dagger.

Look as Thaloc said, the main reason to use a Sword over a dagger in PvP is because you are not gonna be behind your enemy. If you manage to sit behind your enemy throughout the whole fight, you probably could have won the fight with throwing knives.

[Stabface]

But the thing with my rogue is that he will be combat speced, max crits, riposte, adrenaline rush. So daggers would be better for me no? Well, I still need to bring him tilll 60 lol, all these stuffs are jsut in my head. :P
Ill keep him as an alt and ill be looking forward to duel your ss rogue :D.

the thing is, with adrenaline rush, you have basically one option, and that is to spam sinister strike. you can use sinister strike almost non-stop. naturally, with sinister strike, it is far more powerful when you use a very slow weapon with high damage. these weapons are more than likely going to be swords and maces, whereas daggers are faster and less powerful (straight damage-wise), to be used for backstab, etc.

adrenaline rush and backstab does not work nearly as well as a) you have to be behind the target, b) you will deal a lot of damage quicker and the target will turn to face you, and c) you are still waiting for energy, even with adrenaline rush.

swords/maces take advantage of adrenaline rush the best, especially paired with blade flurry.

[MrO]

Hi Stabface. You are correct and win the game.

[Stabface]

Hi Stabface. You are correct and win the game.

you saddened me, sneak :|

[HeychP]

Ok good point, well would it work to switch from daggers to swords?(like lets say when u vanish or something and go for an ambush by switching to daggers and as soon as the player starts facing you, you switch back to swords). Or is it jsut simply better to stay with swords and just bash ss like a bitch lol.

[Jumai]

I also subscribe to the SS theory. You can *technically* gain higher DPS by using backstab IF you run 5/5 opportunity, 5/5 lethality, 3/3 improved backstab, but it's bursty, positional, and goes to jank in pvp when there is no real hope of staying behind someone.

I love the mace stun, it is far and away the most powerful weapon spec, quite possibly our most powerful talent that isn't involved with a cooldown. Running 2 maces, you stun fairly reliably, it's a death sentance in pvp.

I asked Thaloc last night why he took swords over maces, his answer boiled down to getting hammers is a pain in teh ass. I agree wholeheartedly on that point.

[Seijin]

Since we're asking Thaloc questions, I have one. Why did you pick an orc? Just wondering if you picked him for looks or for the slight stat differences?

[Stabface]

Since we're asking Thaloc questions, I have one. Why did you pick an orc? Just wondering if you picked him for looks or for the slight stat differences?

thaloc has told me in the past that he hates undead :)

and, trolls look goofy as hell.

so, that leaves the badass looking orcs.

[Thaloc]

I love orcs =]

also hate undead...I'm relying on Blizzard to fix undeads superiority before release, so Orc will be a viable option =]

[PaJaMa]

I saw that Thaloc was Sapping in the 5v5 you guys did... Was that improved or just plain sap?

[kaiser]

not improved unless he changed his build

[PaJaMa]

So is the 31 combat 15ass 5 subtlety build good or is it another variant?

[Real]

xx,9j

[tnarg]

If the minimum damage and maximum damage on daggers lowered and raised respectively, they would ultimately legitimize the use of daggers as a rogue due to the void filled by swords being repressed due to this.

I feel like Einstein or something. All of a sudden I want a chocolate-chip bagel with strawberry cream cheese. Wow that sounds so good. I'm going to Einstein Bagels. *drool*

-kiegh

[Dagam]

No, because the average damage per hit stays the same. The reason some rogues go swords/maces is because the average damage per hit is much higher than for daggers, giving you bigger SSs.

[Kintoun]

I've got 3 rogue builds I've been testing with. I won't post them in depth until I see how good the talent system for the main Nurfed page is (Tiv's working on it).

Basically theres a non-stealth build which uses swords, and face to face DPS:
0 sub
Combat to Blade Flurry
Assassination to Seal Fate

A pure 1v1 utlity/stealth build, uses swords, and every timer/stealth ability there is:
Sub down to improved cheap shot and preparation
Combat sini and 2 in gouge
Assassination down to cold blood and improved kidney shot

HUGE DPS dagger build, ambush and backstab galore:
15 in sub, down to improved ambush crit
10 in Combat getting improved backstab crit
Rest in Assassination down to seal fate (leathality is a must)

That last build is insane. 65% raw chance to crit with ambush, 50% raw crit with backstab, you get seal fate (combo pt on crit) AND coldblood, and every crit deals 70% increased damage. On cloth ambush hits for 1400 - 1600, and backstabs hits for 900-1100. THIS build is why Bliz could care less about swords having higher max dmg. You kill non-buffed cloth in 2 hits at 60 (ambush + backstab).

[Thaloc]

I really like the sound of that 3rd build Kin, However the main thing that makes me hesitant about it is leveling up in retail...

without a taunting warrior, a rogue almost always has the aggro vs regular mobs, and builds that rely on ambush or backstab just take time out of the pure killing/grinding. One thing I love about the Sealfate/Flurry build is that you can just run from mob to mob and begin hacking away at them with sin strikes, and every 2 minutes you can kill two at a time with Blade Flurry.

I think in an ideal guild you may want to have a designated sword using Rogue to open group fights with cheap shots on casters, and 2-4 additional rogues who are ambush openers to just obliterate the target in 2-3 hits each. I guess we'll have to see come retail how difficult it is to respec from swords to daggers and vice versa.

PS. Have you tried the 3rd build with Dagger spec instead of seal fate? that'd leave you a 70% chance to crit with ambush and 55% for backstab. Maybe there is some way to get a couple points into seal while still increasing your dagger crit rate......wish i could test it but the servers are down =]

[PaJaMa]

What builds do you like Thaloc?

[Kintoun]

I really like the sound of that 3rd build Kin, However the main thing that makes me hesitant about it is leveling up in retail...

without a taunting warrior, a rogue almost always has the aggro vs regular mobs, and builds that rely on ambush or backstab just take time out of the pure killing/grinding. One thing I love about the Sealfate/Flurry build is that you can just run from mob to mob and begin hacking away at them with sin strikes, and every 2 minutes you can kill two at a time with Blade Flurry.

I think in an ideal guild you may want to have a designated sword using Rogue to open group fights with cheap shots on casters, and 2-4 additional rogues who are ambush openers to just obliterate the target in 2-3 hits each. I guess we'll have to see come retail how difficult it is to respec from swords to daggers and vice versa.

PS. Have you tried the 3rd build with Dagger spec instead of seal fate? that'd leave you a 70% chance to crit with ambush and 55% for backstab. Maybe there is some way to get a couple points into seal while still increasing your dagger crit rate......wish i could test it but the servers are down =]
You can drop coldblood and seal fate for Blade Flurry... but there's a few things I don't like about Blade Flurry in PVP tho - the 2min timer, and the fact you have to choose targets right next to each other. Also I'd take 1.5 times as many combo points over 5% increased crit any day. When ganking cloth classes it's rare to find them next to each other, within flurry range range of the main group, or have the secondary target stay within range. And if you're not killing a focus-fire target, or a cloth target, you're wasting your time in PVP since the damage you deal will be negated by heals.

The rogue is MEANT to hit cloth classes. Not that his DPS isn't extremely useful at the front lines... but he's the best class for sneaking to the back lines and easily taking out the support classes within seconds, and then raping whats left at the front lines.

I'm totally for gimping my solo rogue in order to become a better PVPer. I'm playing this game for PVP not for PVE, and I'll be hitting 60 no matter what build I use.

[Kintoun]

What builds do you like Thaloc?
He's really partial to the first build that I listed above. 0 sub, half assassination and combat. Gets you Blade Flurry AND seal fate. Makes you one powerful ass frontlines DPS dealer.

[Ghetto]

Would a dual-mace stun spec (31 combat/20 assassination) rogue be viable?

[PaJaMa]

so i'm guessing you can be effective in PvP without Sub with that assassination thing.. I'm leaning towards a Sword build with cold blood and stuff but in open beta i'll try the super combat thing... Thx

[PaJaMa]

n/m i'm tired.. time to go halloween drinking

[Thaloc]

blade flurry increases leveling by close to 50% by itself, thats why I like it.

and also, in PVP you can activate it anytime you want for the 20% speed increase, and if someone should get within flurry distance of your target, all the better.

and yeah rogues are meant to be caster killers, but I'm all for breaking convention, and frankly I hate daggers =]

[Evolox]

Would it be more benefical to drop 5 points into the dagger spec with the seal fate/furry build? The way I see it, more crit=more CP obviously with seal fate, I would think that they compliment each other. I'm just not sure if that would make up for DPS lost from not using a sword.

[Kintoun]

Would a dual-mace stun spec (31 combat/20 assassination) rogue be viable?
Nope, mace stun is affected by diminishing returns. After 3 stuns there will ALWAYS be 15 secs of immune to stuns. That INCLUDES gouge and kidney shot.

Would it be more benefical to drop 5 points into the dagger spec with the seal fate/furry build? The way I see it, more crit=more CP obviously with seal fate, I would think that they compliment each other. I'm just not sure if that would make up for DPS lost from not using a sword.
Only way to fit that in would be to drop dual weild specialization. But that talent far outweighs anything 5% crit can provide. AND it would force you to use a dagger which isn't always the best choice.

Dual weild spec makes ur offhand do full damage. Thats a 30% increase in damage from regular dual weild. I'm trying to combine the wicked BS/ambush crit with one that uses dual weild spec too. This way u can crit ambush -> BS out of stealth, then switch to sword and rape just as hard. Best of both worlds.

Here's the build:
13 in sub getting improved ambush
23 in combat getting dual weild spec and blade flurry
15 in assassination getting leathality

You get all the same crit numbers with backstab and ambush using daggers, but can also rape at front lines with swords + blade flurry and nice sustained dmg with dual weild spec. But you miss out on some of the cool timers/skills deeper in the other trees - namely coldblood and seal fate

[Jumai]

Would a dual-mace stun spec (31 combat/20 assassination) rogue be viable?
Nope, mace stun is affected by diminishing returns. After 3 stuns there will ALWAYS be 15 secs of immune to stuns. That INCLUDES gouge and kidney shot.
I trust you have tested the deminishing returns by procing mace stun 3 times then trying to kidney punch? I'm very partial to mace spec, but this takes away from it somewhat. I would still argue in its favor.

Would it be more benefical to drop 5 points into the dagger spec with the seal fate/furry build? The way I see it, more crit=more CP obviously with seal fate, I would think that they compliment each other. I'm just not sure if that would make up for DPS lost from not using a sword.
Only way to fit that in would be to drop dual weild specialization. But that talent far outweighs anything 5% crit can provide. AND it would force you to use a dagger which isn't always the best choice.

Dual weild spec makes ur offhand do full damage. Thats a 30% increase in damage from regular dual weild. I'm trying to combine the wicked BS/ambush crit with one that uses dual weild spec too. This way u can crit ambush -> BS out of stealth, then switch to sword and rape just as hard. Best of both worlds.
Thia I'm going to contest. Most of the hard numbers indicate it raises offhand damage by 50%, exactly as the talent says, rather than decreasing the penalty by 50%, meaning your offhand swings go from 50% to 75% damage. It's still a strong talent, but it's not quite qhat you're making it out to be.

Here's the build:
13 in sub getting improved ambush
23 in combat getting dual weild spec and blade flurry
15 in assassination getting leathality

You get all the same crit numbers with backstab and ambush using daggers, but can also rape at front lines with swords + blade flurry and nice sustained dmg with dual weild spec. But you miss out on some of the cool timers/skills deeper in the other trees - namely coldblood and seal fate
Relying on Blade Flurry as a source of damage output to a single target in pvp is going to let you down. 20% swing damage over 15 seconds, and damage is lost whenever you lose LOS or range. You can make a case for it, but since it costs energy, you are losing tempo for a DOT that is highly unreliable. I don't like doing it unless there is some chain stunning happening. Of course, your raw SS power is still gonna be fine.

Aggression is terrible, and adrenaline is rarely useable to its full potential in pvp, so I can accept running a 20 point combat build, even though I hates losing weapon spec :(

13 in sub for improved ambush seems pretty inefficient to me. The big ambush is still unreliable being crit reliant, and paying 13 points for it is not justifiable to me. Move to seal fate instead. Then you can pick blade flurry or vigor, a mostly PVE relevant damn nice skill, or a crappy ass burst damage boost to your opening few seconds.

[Kintoun]

I trust you have tested the deminishing returns by procing mace stun 3 times then trying to kidney punch? I'm very partial to mace spec, but this takes away from it somewhat. I would still argue in its favor.

Actually... reconsidering this... you get 6s of stuns, then 15s of no stuns. Thats a free improved kidney shot every 15s which isn't so bad. It can still cause problems tho, like when someone is trying to run away and you can't stun him to stop him after you proc'ed 3 stuns.

But simply put, the sacrifice for getting mace spec is too great. There are far better talent combinations to be had. Not to mention I prefer to choose when my stuns happen.


*snip* Dual wield spec makes ur offhand do full damage *snip*

Thia I'm going to contest. Most of the hard numbers indicate it raises offhand damage by 50%, exactly as the talent says, rather than decreasing the penalty by 50%, meaning your offhand swings go from 50% to 75% damage. It's still a strong talent, but it's not quite qhat you're making it out to be.

You're partially right here. First, it makes your offhand do full damage. Test it again in the stress test using the same weap in both hands. The numbers are identical. You're right tho, it's not as strong as I was hoping it to be. Sacrificing dual wield for seal fate was stupid. Combo points indirectly deal FAR more DPS than just a raw damage increase for normal hits.

Here's the build:
13 in sub getting improved ambush
23 in combat getting dual weild spec and blade flurry
15 in assassination getting leathality

You get all the same crit numbers with backstab and ambush using daggers, but can also rape at front lines with swords + blade flurry and nice sustained dmg with dual weild spec. But you miss out on some of the cool timers/skills deeper in the other trees - namely coldblood and seal fate
Relying on Blade Flurry as a source of damage output to a single target in pvp is going to let you down. 20% swing damage over 15 seconds, and damage is lost whenever you lose LOS or range. You can make a case for it, but since it costs energy, you are losing tempo for a DOT that is highly unreliable. I don't like doing it unless there is some chain stunning happening. Of course, your raw SS power is still gonna be fine.

Aggression is terrible, and adrenaline is rarely useable to its full potential in pvp, so I can accept running a 20 point combat build, even though I hates losing weapon spec :(

13 in sub for improved ambush seems pretty inefficient to me. The big ambush is still unreliable being crit reliant, and paying 13 points for it is not justifiable to me. Move to seal fate instead. Then you can pick blade flurry or vigor, a mostly PVE relevant damn nice skill, or a crappy ass burst damage boost to your opening few seconds.
I don't care for Blade Flurry myself, I was just giving a build which pleases the Blade Flurry users and the crit users.

Yes aggression is worthless, no argument here.

13 in sub is ineffcient? Now you're on crack. 65% crit with ambush is nothing to laff about. And using coldblood when you NEED that crit for sure can be done. And re-read the opportunity talent, it works seamlessly with my ambush crit build. Maybe you missed the part where I said ambush crit deals 1400-1600 to cloth targets in my build? I kill cloth in 2 hits OVER 50% of the time. Even when I don't, my 2-4 point evis follow up WILL. You NEED the speed of Camo, you get detected less (look up how the stealth system works), and can move into position far faster - both are cruicial for group based PVP.

Your build sounds like a front lines combat/assassination build. You can still stand up to taking hits, and don't rely on positioning while dealing nice damage. My build is a cloth assassinating, position reliant (backstab), can't take hits build that deals far more damage. Both types of rogues are needed.