Yo indal about dual wield..

[HeychP]

I heard from my friend arch that you explained how 2H is better than dual wield (on the long run) and i would like to know how and why.

Xy's idea really impressed me, but arfter hearing what Arch said , it surprised me, so if ya got time, post it up. ( A warrior stam // agi built is jsut amazingly nice, more chance to hit, crit, dodge and he can tank) I dont understand how 2h can beat that, really.

Btw i wanna know also, did Thaloc ever beat you? (lol his rogue scares the shit outta me) only by looks :P. I know that for a rogue its very hard to beat a warrior, but to me accomplishing the impossible is always my goal.

[Tyrul]

well as it stands right now MS spec is probably better than dual weild, because it is an instant attack that doesnst go off your normal attacks and weilds massive damage. I do not have close to what i want for my daul weild (im xysh btw) but when i do we'll see what happens. I'll work on it before open.

[HeychP]

cool, well let me know.

[Indalamar]

I will respond to this when I have more time along with the other posts directed at me. Long story short there is NO dual wield build that is better then my current warrior build. If you know me and know that you can trust me then you will be happy with that for the moment. If you need hard facts and numbers then no worries Ill provide those as well when I have an hour to write up a response.

[HeychP]

I will respond to this when I have more time along with the other posts directed at me. Long story short there is NO dual wield build that is better then my current warrior build. If you know me and know that you can trust me then you will be happy with that for the moment. If you need hard facts and numbers then no worries Ill provide those as well when I have an hour to write up a response.

I trust your skills because I have seen you play, and I have heard much about you. I would love to duel you and I will, but if it will happen, it will be only in OB. Who doesn't love a challenge? I just dont have a level 60, ive made probably 5-6 chars passed 35, had time to test them and all, but can't really bring them to 60 because I share account with Arch.

But sure, anytime you have to make a "mathematical" response would be great.

[Fierce]

i think what makes a 2h warrior better than a dual wield warrior is the simple fact that MS promotes slow weapons, with large 'one-hit' dammage. Basicly, if two weapons have the same DPS, the slower weapon will do more dammage with MS overall. The reason for this is MS has a limited ammount of use due to cooldown on the ability. Every 6 seconds, you can use MS. So, if you had a weapon that hits for 100 dammage every 2 seconds, useing MS once every 3 swings will only yield 220 dammage. however, if you had a weapon that hits for 200 every 4 seconds, your MS will do 420 dammage every 1.5 attacks. So basicly, the slower your weapon, the more dammage overall you will output with MS.

I hope this makes sense...and i am understanding it correctly. =]

[HeychP]

i think what makes a 2h warrior better than a dual wield warrior is the simple fact that MS promotes slow weapons, with large 'one-hit' dammage. Basicly, if two weapons have the same DPS, the slower weapon will do more dammage with MS overall. The reason for this is MS has a limited ammount of use due to cooldown on the ability. Every 6 seconds, you can use MS. So, if you had a weapon that hits for 100 dammage every 2 seconds, useing MS once every 3 swings will only yield 220 dammage. however, if you had a weapon that hits for 200 every 4 seconds, your MS will do 420 dammage every 1.5 attacks. So basicly, the slower your weapon, the more dammage overall you will output with MS.

I hope this makes sense...and i am understanding it correctly. =]

So the answer to my question resolves around MS?

[Fierce]

I belive it to be the most powerful warrior ability in the game...i think many people will agree.

Anyways, i was just posting ideas, i am open to rebuttle, and welcome it. I would love to know what parts of a dual wield warror you belive could make them better than a 2h one... so plz post, and set me back on track. =D

[HeychP]

I belive it to be the most powerful warrior ability in the game...i think many people will agree.

Anyways, i was just posting ideas, i am open to rebuttle, and welcome it. I would love to know what parts of a dual wield warror you belive could make them better than a 2h one... so plz post, and set me back on track. =D

Well can dual wield be good for casters, i mean like it can land pretty deadly dmg and reduce their casting time. And switch to 2H against melees.

[Fierce]

ah, Warrior VS caster is a lot diff than Warrior vs Melee; which i thought we were talking about from the start.

I think your right on this...dual wield would definitly increase the casting time for casters because of the extra attacks, and fast weapons...between being hit with 2 fast weapons, and Pummel...i think casters would be taken out easier than with a big slow weapon.

So, yea, that is a vaible option for Warr vs Cloth, but as far as a Dual Wield Warr VS a 2H Warr, i stick with my belief that a 2h Warr is a better build.

[HeychP]

ah, Warrior VS caster is a lot diff than Warrior vs Melee; which i thought we were talking about from the start.

I think your right on this...dual wield would definitly increase the casting time for casters because of the extra attacks, and fast weapons...between being hit with 2 fast weapons, and Pummel...i think casters would be taken out easier than with a big slow weapon.

So, yea, that is a vaible option for Warr vs Cloth, but as far as a Dual Wield Warr VS a 2H Warr, i stick with my belief that a 2h Warr is a better build.

same here, but i thought it was a possibility, you never know :P

[DVD+R]

Would duel weilding give any advantage to a fury specced warrior? Someone who doesn't tank and mainly hits death wish and uses slam. Because it gives an extra 112 damage (something like that), so if you were hitting a lot faster, and you can use it every swing, would you not deal damage faster? Or does your offhand factor in and fuck that all up?

[Jumai]

Would duel weilding give any advantage to a fury specced warrior? Someone who doesn't tank and mainly hits death wish and uses slam. Because it gives an extra 112 damage (something like that), so if you were hitting a lot faster, and you can use it every swing, would you not deal damage faster? Or does your offhand factor in and fuck that all up?

No. Slam, like MS, is bot bound to weapon delay, therefor, your instant hit has to be big for it to be good. Dual Weild *by design* increases your raw swing damage by almost exactly the same as using a 2her over sword/board does, therefor, any damage lost on the instant swings is damage that is just plain lost.

[Indalamar]

Jumai summed it up rather well.

[DVD+R]

... i don't reall know if that answers my question or not, because i didn't really get what you were trying to say.

This is the way i tried to breakdown how duel-wielding with slam would do more damage then a 2hand using ms.

Say you have a 2HD that does 200 dmg every 4 seconds and a 1Hd that does 100 every 2 seconds.

200 X 2.2 = 440 every other swing with ms
non ms swing while cooling down = 200
640 dmg in 8 seconds

100 + 112 = 212 with slam, and since slam has no cooldown
212 x 4 = 848

848 dmg in 8 seconds

Is this theory flawed? Did i fuck up somewhere? Cause as far as i can see, it looks like duel-wielding and using slam is the best for DPS. The only problem is that you would need to be in berserker stance.

[Indalamar]

Ive done the math too many times and dont really want to do it again. Long story short and simple version is 2h+MS is currently the highest dps you will get. Slam resets your melee timers so if you are spamming Slam you are not meleeing hence not building rage and also you are taking 20% more dmg for being in Zerk stance. Also you can't move while using Slam.

[DVD+R]

Oh, I see. I didn't realize that you didn't build rage while using slam.

[Nous]

You can time slams to coincide with normal attacks. I believe that after the slam finishes it still resets your swings, which obviously Indalamar stated, but not sure if attacking + slam at the same time will reset the attack till slam is finished.

But if your able to time correctly you can get double attacks, one with the added slam damage, during every attack cycle. Like I said earlier the cycles might be a bit longer though if your attack is only reset after your slam channel is fiinished.

Also, from my personal experience, the most damage that anyone can do in the game is a combo of reckless ==> fury > inner rage > than spammed slams coupled with deathwish. If done correctly in the time it takes for reckless to wear you'll have done upwards of 7k-10k damage based on equip and hit/misses. Obviously Indalamar could do more than myself, but with a dreadforge and decent attack gear i was easily doing 800+ crits on the baron in stratholme. I honestly think this needs to be nerfed, not sure exactly why reckless isn't cleared when switching stances, most other warrior abilities like bloodrage etc are cleared when stances are switched.

Like Indalamar said earlier though, you can't move while slamming so its not nearly as viable in pvp situations imho. A reckless + cleave combo might work well if your charging into a clump of enemies, but cleave and sweeping strikes for that matter are pretty positional dependant and you could waste rage/attack rounds for a backfired cleave.

With the new berserker rage though, you can build rage enough to slam multiple times, but you need to be tanking, and from what I've seen in most of the high level instances, the amount of mobs you are tanking at any given time doesn't lend for a fury tank.

[Real]

Duel = For casters
2H = For other melee chars

[Indalamar]

dual wield = for nothing
2h = for everything

[Sardaukar]

Any benefits you gain against casters (and I don't think you do) are outweighed by the massive superiority in every other facet of MS + big 2 hand. A caster is not going to stand there and let you wail on him so the "interupt" thing doesnt really come into play. Your going to spend alot of your time CC'ed in some way or swinging against a caster with Mana Sheild, Power Word: Sheild, Ice Barrier, etc on. There are also many instants for the to use as well as abilities that turn their time casting skills into instants. Your goal is to kill them as fast as mathematically possible and Dual Weilding just aint it.

[Av]

I belive you only slam with one hand.

Av

[HeychP]

well tnx for clearing things up guys, appreciate it alot.

so i guess all in all, dual wield is not for warriors.