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rjah
10-26-2004, 08:49 PM
Greetings fellow shamans, or anyone who has grouped with them for more than just an instance...


Enhancement is the bane of shamans. I have studied this tree for oh so long, and I can find no value in it aside from parry (now too expensive to bother with) and shield !$#%$#@%@#. The 5% dmg mitigation from both is nice, but nothing else in the tree can hold any of my interest. Am I insane?

Every shaman build I see is Restoration (nice tree) and Enhancement (such sadness). Some builds are more Restoration than Enhancement and vice versa, but everyone seems to feel these two are the best trees for a shaman. I would like to put forth a new opinion (with some data) and see if anyone would care to provide feedback, as feedback helps me understand more and tune my shammy more to my play style.

Elemental is, in my opinion, the ultime tree for shamans. I know we are a balanced class and that we can do many things, such as hit, tank, nuke, and heal. Each balanced class I have ever played (and I am a huge fan of them) usually tends to lead in one direction though. Shamans I feel are more of a caster than a tank. Our counterpart the Paladin (lol) seems to be opposite in that they are more of a tank and less of a caster. Let's go into this a bit more.

Shamans, larger mana pool; generally close to or more than your HP.
Paladins, more hp than mana; generally much less mana than your HP.
Druids, larger mana pool; generally similar to the shaman, unless they choose to run in cat or bear form a lot, then they tend a little more to paladin but still have more mana than a paladin ever will.

Shamans tend to be stronly spirit based, which is why I think weapon procs used to be based on spirit, but that is gone now =/. We have very few skills that increase our physical DPS, a weapon spell, Thundering Strikes (5% crit) and flurry (30% IAS for 3 swings). The only true DPS increase in that is Flurry imo. Sadly you must use a 2H weapon for it to offer you a decent DPS increase, as a faster swinging 1H weapon will not see nearly the DPS increase as a slow swining 2H weapon. With the new miss rates (they claim it is block I am still in doubt) melee is missing quite a bit now at low and mid levels (slightly less at the higher levels). So now you can bet on 1 of the 3 IAS swings missing, which makes the talent (after game mechanics) be more like 30% IAS for 2 hits and a miss, which lowers the DPS output again. Also 2H weapons have been scaled back quite a bith (thanks MS^_^), which I am actually fine with. What it means though is that you do not get as much of a DPS boost with them as you used to when changing over from a 1H weapon (generally 3-5 DPS). If spirit still affected proc rate the free swing from Windfury might balance our mele DPS with our caster DPS more. In short Shamans do not have as much going for them physically as most melee classes (which is cool).

Now our other DPS options are totems, and casting. I put totems in a different category because well, they cost mana but aren't really a spell. We have 3 DPS totems. Searing totem (alright), Fire Nova totem (awesome), and Magma Totem (Never cast it it is so bad). Searing totem is a decent little boost to your DPS, but it can not offer burst DMG which is the ultimate DPS in MMOs. Fire Nova is great DPS, if used for AoE, and with talents it becomes burst DPS, but on a cooldown timer. This is not an effective expenditure of mana unless fightning a group, and even then you can put your mana to better things in most cases.

Casting DPS (nuking as people love to call it). We have lightning, and Chain Lightning (Thank you gods for chain), as well as shocks. This is where our DPS really comes in imo. Some examples... Lightning, you can get off 2 before a battle with a mob starts. That is just the pull and 1 when they are running up to you. Lightning Talents 'Imp Lightning Bolt' - 15% mana cost, 'Call of Thunder' 6% crit chance, 'Elemental Fury' 100% crit dmg (instead of 50% crit dmg spells normally give), 'Lightning Mastery' -1 second cast time, 'Imp Chain Lightning' 10% dmg increase. All of the talents listed, except the first and last ones (man reduction and dmg increase) affect both lightning spells. This is awesome because you are impvoing your solo spells, or spells for use against a single oponent, as well as your spells for group pulls, or group battles. 1.5 second cast Chain Lightning, with a 6% extra crit rate (on top of your INT based crit rate), with a true 100% dmg crits.... if the first one crits the others do more dmg (as I recall), but if the first doesn't well each of the three hits have a chance to crit... Then there is the last talent for lightning 'Elemental Mastery' this is a 100% garunteed crit. Which means in solo less than in a group, but in group fights (like pvp) you get a triple crit chain lightning for a 1.5second cast... That is some big dmg (chain lightning 2 means around 600 dmg, 400dmg and 200 dmg).

That is just lightning based dmg. So with a pull, 2 lightning bolts, then the mob is beside you, its time for a shock. Flame shock or frost shock are both nice for pure DMG to mana cost. Flame shock costs less, but is half a DOT, so it is your call. This little combo generally means for me (vs non elites) that the mob is at 50% health when the fight really starts. No totems, no lightning shield, just 3 spells, and now my dagger and shield. When the fight is done (won't take long now) my spirit generally regens me around 80% of the mana I spent before I get to the next fight. When grouping I only get around 60% back (duos) but I can also use less burst casting (just the 2 lightnings) in the fight depending on whom I am with... Then there is our talent - 'Elemental Focus' 10% clear casting state after a dmg spell, any mage will tell you how godly a clear casting state is... Now that you are actually doing burst DMG with your offensive spells you will find this of course goes off more often. Your clear cast state (12 seconds long or the first spell cast whatever) means you can drop a free shock in melee combat, or a free chain lightning if you aren't getting beaten on. With your talents that free spell is going to count for a lot more (especially with a crit).

The nice thing about the clear casting state, is that it does not reset your mana regen timer from spirit. That's right. You cast a shock, get a clear cast, wait for the cooldown, shock again, and right after you get mana.... Awesome.

Our last form of DPS I guess is more anti DPS, and that is healing. Druids heal more than we do. That's right, Druids are better healers, priests are way better healers. Our only good heal is lesser healing wave. Chain heal is fine I suppose, but if we are healing (back up healer here) it is to keep 1 person alive, not the entire group. So Chain heal takes a back seat most times. The question is, is Nature's Swiftness (and thus one free Healing Wave), or Mana Tide Totem worht the talent points? I don't think so. People are starting to understand what totems really mean in PvP. This means more often than not (despite snares and what I think is good totem placement) my totems die before their natural time expires. Mana sprint totem barely gives you more mana than it costs to cast, so if it is hit before it expires you wasted mana. Healing totem (seriously my favorite totem ever) is great for mana cost, but also gets hit a lot. 'Purification' - 10% more healing per spell. Huge talent point dump for this. To get it I have to completely waste 2 talent points that I would never want to spend in restoration (even if I was restoration spec), because I can only justify 23 talent points to be spent in there. So are you going to spend all your mana healing.... you are a secondary healer after all. Such a huge talent deposit for so little. This talent only affects 2 of your many skills and spells. And equates to around 92 or 152 hp depending if you cast lesser healing wave, or healing wave. 92 hp at level 60? Okay I guess.

My problem is that when I cast a healing spell it drains my DPS for nuking, as there is no clear casting, and it always interrupts my mana regen. While I hate doing it I always will if I see any need at all.

So in short, You get better shocks, more DPS, less Mana, and faster, with elemental. You get an instant DPS Fire Nova Totem. You get cheaper lightning spells (I only put 1 point in this, but it's your call). You get clear casting, you get increased lightning crits, you get a universal spell dmg increase on crits, which also increases the crit dmg of your Fire Nova Totem (nice eh?), as well as offensive spells. You get more chain lightning dmg for group fights, you get faster lightning and chain lightning spells (sweet), and you get a free crit once every 3 mins. Your mana efficieny will be much higher when using this than in any other tree as far as my experience goes.

Now you are capable of dropping some nice burst DPS in PvP, be it solo or group. You can still spend enough talent points to buff your Restoration line (imp lesser healing wave = win). So you are a good backup healer still. You can even drop your 2 extra talent points into 'Shield Specialization' and get a 2% dmg reduction. Shields now seem to be able to negate an entire hit now, but it doesn't always happen like that. If not you have 2 free talent points.

I will post my build after this, then please provide any feedback you can. Shamans are truly my favorite class, and I would like to improve my play. Thanks guys ^_^

Sorry for the long post.

Real
10-26-2004, 08:51 PM
I was going to do shaman come retail but in time i started to not like being a all around kind of char and i wanted to just be stronge in one thing, melee, warrior

rjah
10-26-2004, 08:52 PM
My build.

Elemental Combat Talents (33 points)

# Concussion - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your Shock spells by 5%.

# Improved Lightning Bolt - 1/5 point
Reduces the Mana cost of your Lightning Bolt spell by 3%.

# Convection - 5/5 points
Reduces the Mana cost of your Shock spells by 10%.

# Reverberation - 5/5 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Shock spells by 1 second.

# Call of Thunder - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Lightning spells by 6%.

# Elemental Focus - 1/1 point
Gives you a 10% chance to enter a Clearcasting state after casting any Fire, Frost, or Nature damage spell. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of your next damage spell by 100%.

# Improved Fire Nova Totem - 2/2 points
Reduces the delay before your Fire Nova Totem activates by 2 seconds.

# Elemental Fury - 1/1 point
Increases the critical strike damage done by your Fire, Frost, and Nature spells by 100%.

# Improved Chain Lightning - 2/2 points
Increases the damage dealt by your Chain Lightning spell by 10%.

# Lightning Mastery - 5/5 points
Reduces the cast time of your Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning spells by 1 second.

# Elemental Mastery - 1/1 point
When activated, this spell gives your next Fire, Frost, or Nature damage spell a 100% critical strike chance.



Restoration Talents (16 points)

# Tidal Focus - 5/5 points
Reduces the Mana cost of your healing spells by 5%.

# Ancestral Healing - 5/5 points
Increases your target's armor value from items by 25% for 15 seconds after getting a critical effect from one of your healing spells.

# Combat Endurance - 1/1 point
Allows 10% of your Health regeneration to work while in combat.

# Improved Lesser Healing Wave - 5/5 points
Gives you a 75% chance to avoid interruption caused by damage while casting Lesser Healing Wave.


Enhancement Talents (0 points)

# None

2 Talent points left over. I would say to drop them in 2% more shield blocking, but you could drop them into 6% less mana cost per lightning bolt if you want... I am still undecided.

So what do you think?

Real
10-26-2004, 08:52 PM
For the record at my school 2 people are already Shamans and there will be overall of 5 come retail.

Sintor
10-26-2004, 10:59 PM
I'm an all elemental nurfed Shaman.

kaiser
10-26-2004, 11:11 PM
indeed he is

Mupod
10-27-2004, 04:19 AM
Whoever designed the shaman talents was one devious bastard. I'm still undecided, myself...as the topic creator has shown, one person can consider a talent tree worthless while the next guy thinks it's the best thing ever.

http://wowvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Templates.Detail&id=3921

I'm currently planning on using that build. Regardless of what other people say, I like enhancement...and the shock spells are all kinds of fun. I want to have talents that reflect my play style - even if full elemental is the best for PVP, I've never really been one for standing back and nuking.

I hear a lot of shamans saying that we can already destroy cloth wearers up close, so focusing on elemental is more useful to us in order to handle melee classes. I agree with that to an extent, hence the points I put into the shock talents and elemental focus. And while it's true that Shamans can't go toe-to-toe with a warrior, there will always be situations where it's unavoidable. I'd like to have a fighting chance rather than just sit down and die.

Anyways, there's plenty to like in enhancement. If you can't think of a use for a 1s cast ghost wolf, you're not trying very hard. Lightning shield is always sweet. When I saw 2H axes and maces I nearly crapped myself, I mean sure there are a bunch of great staves out there...but I want to smash them fruity night elves with a giant god damn hammer.

Also, Stormstrike gets compared to Nature's Swiftness and Elemental Mastery all the time...but people rarely mention the cooldown timers. NS takes 3 minutes and Mastery takes 5, whereas stormstrike's cooldown is only 25 seconds. And the 20% damage bonus just makes Earthshock even better.

tnarg
10-27-2004, 08:53 AM
I am only level 32 right now, but plan on being 40 by the weekend. I am thinking about this build wielding a 2h axe and wearing chain. I really like this line, but I also like the shock line of elemental combat for utility purposes. :( I am still a bit undecided, but this seems to be the most feasible for my style of play etc.

Elemental Combat Talents (0 points)


None


Enhancement Talents (31 points)


Shield Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to block attacks with a shield by 5%.


Improved Ghost Wolf - 2/2 points
Reduces the cast time of your Ghost Wolf spell by 2 second.


Thundering Strikes - 5/5 points
Improves your chance to get a critical strike with your weapon attacks by 5%.


Two-Handed Axes and Maces - 1/1 point
Allows you to use Two-Handed Axes and Two-Handed Maces.


Anticipation - 5/5 points
Increases your defense skill by 10.


Flurry - 5/5 points
Increases your attack speed by 30% for your next 3 swings after dealing a critical strike.


Improved Rockbiter Weapon - 1/2 point
Increases the Attack Power bonus of your Rockbiter Weapon by 5%.


Parry - 1/1 point
Gives a chance to parry melee attacks.


Toughness - 5/5 points
Increases your armor value from items by 10%.


Stormstrike - 1/1 point
Gives you an extra attack. In addition, the next 2 sources of Nature damage dealt to the target are increased by 20%. Lasts 12 seconds.




Restoration Talents (0 points)


None

Mupod
10-27-2004, 09:01 AM
Stormstrike is broken right now, isn't it? It's the same bug that's afflicting warrior charge.

Jumai
10-27-2004, 09:03 AM
forgive my ignorance, but I assumed improved grounding totem was godly?

Mupod
10-27-2004, 09:11 AM
It's broken too >_<

rjah
10-27-2004, 04:23 PM
Sorry for the delay on the reply but I have been insanely busy as of late.

Sintor - You are an elemental spec Shaman? Care to post your build and perhaps reasoning behind it? I would really appreciate it.

Mupod - This is a bit of a longer reply.

- Elemental Talents:
Your talent spec (shocks) in this tree seem very melee to me which looks to go well with the rest of the talents you have chosen.

- Enchancemtent

- Ancestral Knowledge (+5% mana)

I can not understand the value of this talent at all. 5% more mana, even after items is almost nothing. Let us take an example of 5000 mana at level 60, this means you would get a bonus of 250 mana. That also assumes the talent gives bonus mana to your total pool after buffs and +int items. I can not justify 5 talent points for 250 mana. That is at most 1 spell at level 60.

- Improved Ghost Wolf Form (- 2 second casting time)

To me this is a talent only really used in PvP. I say that because in PvE 2 seconds is nothing to your run speed, and in the long run you get a mount.... which is faster. So to me this is a talent used to flee in PvP. If I am getting jumped by a level 60 character (or just a group of people out to kill), sure a 1 second retreat timer is nicer, the problem is that it is only good if they are not in melee with you already. Mages can counterspell, rogues can kick, warriors can bash, driuds can entangle, priests can fear, everyone can kite you or stop you from fleeing if they are getting the jump on you. If they are not, then drop an earthbind totem, back up and take the 3 seconds to cast, or just keep running and dropping earthbind totems to get away. I see this as a waste of 2 talent points.

My other reasoning is that I really only enjoy duo or group PvP. I never plan on losing in those circumstances (I still do at times of course), so ghost wolf is the last thing on my mind. Once again I can not justify using 2 of my 51 talent points on this.

Improved Windfury - 4% more chance to proc windfury

You are using this with a 2H weapon build I see. So you are hoping the proc from windfury will give you an extra swing with your weapon and thus get an edge in combat? If you are going 2h I would think that burst dmg through big crits are the true DPS behind 2h Weapons. This would lead me to more of a Rockbiter build. The reason is two fold. First of all each hit you are doing does more base dmg, second of all when you do crit, that increased basse dmg is multipled. Which means a crit with rockbiter would of course crit the rockbiter (which is counted as melee dmg) as well. They are not seperate values, such as when using flametounge weapon. So in short 50dmg without rockbiter on a normal hit, and 60 with it. Then you crit at 120 instead of 100dmg. I would say that Rockbiter > Windfury in that regard.

If on the other hand you really do just want to have more steady dmg why not use a faster hitting weapon? Which leads me to my last point. Strengh of Earth Totem. You placed 1 point to improve it. This is great in groups imo (especially with rogues). It always adds the same ammount of strength though, regardless of weapon speed. So if 20 str = +2 max/min dmg, then that will become DPS based on your swing speed. So if you have a swing speed of 1.0, you just got a 2 DPS increase. If you have a swing speed of 3.0 (common for 2h weapons) you instead get a 0.67DPS increase. The faster the swing rate the more DPS the totem gives you.



The above is only my opinion, it is just to give you something to think about. If you can perhaps explain your reasons for choosing the talents maybe I can find more worth in them. I would appreciate that.


- Tnarg

5/5 Anticipation +10 Defense skill

Have you checked what this skill actually does? Defense is your chance to not be hit in combat. So if you look at your parry, dodge, and block skills, that is (as far as I understand it) your only visual chance of seeing your defense rewards. This skill adds very little to each. Infact it adds less than 1% to each skill. Which even if it did at a full 1% to each would only be a 4% dmg reduction. Also keep in mind blocking does not always negate the entire hit, that is in fact the rare exception rather than the rule. Also since you are using a 2H weapon you won't even be getting block (unless you swap to tank). Which would set this to a max of a 3% dmg reduction for 5 talent points.

On the other hand if you are not stuck on 2H weapons, Shield Specialization gives a 5% increase to block. This is of course not a true 5% dmg reduction though, ah choices... ^_^

Once again thanks for the feedback guys, it is strangely hard to find a good discussion about shamans and their talents.

Mupod
10-27-2004, 06:02 PM
Ancestral Knowledge isn't much of a boost, but it's better than nothing which is what shield specialization would be if I was using 2H :p

And the one point in strength totem was just for a prerequisite.

Windfury is still something I'm not sure about. Until Blizzard says how it's supposed to be interacting with flurry, I might actually go for rockbiter.

As for ghost wolf, you're free to disagree. But it's one of my favorite abilities, and even in PvE I like the reduced casting time. Considering how often I use ghost wolf, it's just a little less time I'd spend staring at the casting bar. In PVP, its main use for me is chasing down fleeing opponents. Frost shock and earthbind are great and all but they're no good if the enemy is out of range.

Tlear
10-28-2004, 06:11 AM
I think main reason why people concentrate on the enchance tree is the fact that it doesnt use mana. Shaman is actually a much better pvp healer then druid. Druid doesnt have any reliable fast casting heals. Druid fastest heal is heal+hot which is very inefficient when you need to dump mana to keep someone alive. Healing tree also has a must have skill that every shaman needs to get, Nature's swiftness. The theory goes if you need to add fast dps use shock otherwise save mana for heals and totems.

Enchance can also add quite a bit of survivability to shaman. Unfortunately Grounding is broken or it would be a must have skill too. Defense add skill is not too good, but parry + armor % add + blocking add and some points in defense will add quite a bit of melee defense when stacked probably about 10% less dmg taken in melee which is not too bad at all.

I think Elemental can be pretty good too, especially if you group with 2 priest or priest and druid. But the spec I would go for is: 21 points till nature swiftness then 30 points to max lightning speed

Elemental Combat Talents (30 points)

# Concussion - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your Shock spells by 5%.

# Improved Lightning Bolt - 3/5 points
Reduces the Mana cost of your Lightning Bolt spell by 9%.

# Convection - 5/5 points
Reduces the Mana cost of your Shock spells by 10%.

# Reverberation - 5/5 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Shock spells by 1 second.

# Elemental Focus - 1/1 point
Gives you a 10% chance to enter a Clearcasting state after casting any Fire, Frost, or Nature damage spell. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of your next damage spell by 100%.

# Call of Thunder - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Lightning spells by 6%.

# Elemental Fury - 1/1 point
Increases the critical strike damage done by your Fire, Frost, and Nature spells by 100%.

# Lightning Mastery - 5/5 points
Reduces the cast time of your Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning spells by 1 second.



Enhancement Talents (0 points)

# None


Restoration Talents (21 points)

# Tidal Focus - 5/5 points
Reduces the Mana cost of your healing spells by 5%.

# Totemic Focus - 5/5 points
Reduces the Mana cost of your totems by 10%.

# Improved Lesser Healing Wave - 5/5 points
Gives you a 75% chance to avoid interruption caused by damage while casting Lesser Healing Wave.

# Tidal Mastery - 5/5 points
Increases the critical effect chance of your healing and Nature damage spells by 5%.

# Nature's Swiftness - 1/1 point
When activated, your next Nature spell with a casting time less than 10 seconds becomes an instant cast spell.