hunters

[rawrior]

would hunters be able to kill in pvp or have a fair chance?

[Real]

No hunters cant kill anything what so ever. :shock:

[Nail]

I was looking for advice on this as well. With talents the builds appear to be viable for PvP. I played a shaman to 53 on beta and had an excellent time with him in PvP, but the class has become ubiquitous for PvP and I wanted to try an alt approach.

The mana burn shot looks quite potent and I was pounded by it several times in PvP raids. The ranged talent tree gives an extra 6 yds of range, which is very nice as distance in some of those standoffs is a limiting factor. The debuf for stealthed has no range limits whatsoever....nice. The volley does very amazing dmg against closed groups....60/sec for all targets in a 8 yd range. Raids are often clumped up (albeit on beta) prior to attacking.

Forget pets for PvP it seems. The only thing they provide atm is distraction (although there is plans for more pet spells, including a knockdown). With talents they can increase run speed by 30% which would catch and stun some non-mounted PCs.

Their one glaring weakness is that all the dots are poison based. As a shaman I could quickly cure any hunter dots, but I'm playing horde so that will be less of an issue.

Could I get some sage advice on a Hunter with a marksman build? Has any Nurfed tinkered with them?

[Nox]

would hunters be able to kill in pvp or have a fair chance?

Hunters have a fair contribution to group pvp. They were added late in the game however, and their abilities are severely watered down and weak.

I would strongly, strongly recommend not rolling a hunter until they get a serious revamp. They are pretty much the weakest class atm.

they aren't terrible, but then again, they aren't great. The two things they do well are tracking and sustained dps at range.

Their shortcomings are :

- no burst dps
- special attacks are watered down (such as aimed shot, which basically does the same damage as auto shoot over the same time period)
- no way to control enemy movement, so they get trapped in melee
- use of mana for their abilities causes them to have to forgo damage stats for mana stats
- lack of high end itemization (there are literally 4 ranged weapons in the game over level 50 and all 4 are super, super rare - like .00001% world drop on mobs > 60 elite. I'm not joking)
- the abilities they have that are similar to mage abilities such as root, snare, cc and confusion are so watered down as to be nearly insignificant. For example, mage has AE freeze with frost nova, hunter has 1-target freeze with trap that can only be used out of combat. Mage has sheep which is the most abusive and hard-hitting spell in the game - and hunter has a similar spell that lasts for 3 seconds.

The biggest problem with hunter is that due to itemization and abilities, they are almost overpowered until about 20. Hence, people play newb hunters and come back and give me lip about how 'hunters are great.' This is tiresome and makes me want to hit people.

After 30 hunters fall further and further behind any other class until about 45 when they start REALLY falling behind. After 50 or so the pet pretty much can't tank anymore because their armor gain is linear while players are doubling armor between 40-60. The pet at 60 has about half the armor of a player, so he melts like butter.

Hunters basically got jacked in the butt because release came, and they weren't done.

Again, I strongly recommend just playing a hunter alt for a while until they get revamped which I honestly don't expect to see happen for at least 6 months after release.

I know there's lots of people out there who want to think they can do it better than me, and that didn't try whatever magical idea they have to make a hunter uber, but I assure you that if it was possible, I tried it.

Before you respond to me and tell me I'm on crack, just stop for a sec and look at the hunter ranged weapons on thottbot over level 40. They have LESS dps than equivalent 1h weapons. There's no way for the hunter to DO significant dps with crap weapons.

Until that changes, hunters are stuck in the toilet.

- nox

[Rhoh]

I hung with Nox in both PVP and PVE, and rest assured he did everything possible with that class. He's meticulous in what he does - he's crafty, he's got the hunter class dialed in. If he's saying Hunters are ghetto, play something else.

Rhoh

[Saxony]

Nox, I have some questions you could maybe help me out with. I believe in what you say that Hunters are not finished, a somewhat necessary evil in order to get the game on the market. Game designers have to eat too ya know. However, I intend to play a hunter on release, I have faith that if they keep the pace they've been with their content upgrades then they will see much improvement in 2-3 months time. I want to be already equipped when that happens, and being a rare 60 hunter almost guarantees access to that rare drop of a ranged weapon. My question is mostly about pets. From my experience *27 hunter in the open beta stress weeks* Named and elite pets do more damage but seem to always have the dreaded 2.00 attack speed. The best pet I found was a savannah patriarch who has an attack speed of 1.30 and a strong starting damage of 11.33 DPS at lvl 15 and 125% dmg from happiness rating. Before open beta I had heard that elites and named mobs did more damage and I equated that to more dps, but from my experience this isn't true. Any thoughts on that? In your opinion what is the best pet available to a horde hunter?

-Saxony

[Nox]

I think that is perfectly valid.

I'm not and have never said that hunters were terrible, I am saying they are subpar and they get a lot weaker later.

Also, don't count on getting that uber weapon - just because you are a hunter. Warriors and rogues can use those weapons too, and they'll be in the instances.

I love the class, but I don't feel it's a safe bet to assume they'll revamp it in short order and I don't want to be a dog with 3 legs. I want to drive my group's success and my guild's success... not be carried.

anyhow, for pets I finally settled on Ursine pets. They can learn all the current pet abilities, and have good armor and hp, and they eat everything which is convenient.

Cats were unable to bite, I think, which was annoying. They do higher raw dps, but I haven't seen a good tool to help run the numbers on pets - have you?

[Nail]

Nox,

Thanks a lot for the advice. It's very hard to get a feeling for a class from only 20 lvls. What seems perfectly useful vs lvl 20 mobs is silly useless vs the 50+ mobs. I wanted to try something different, but didn't want to be the 3 legged dog, as you mentioned. Nevertheless, I'm still thinking it over. And since you know the class well...

Obviously marksmanship is the primary tree for PvP. Is trueshot aura worth the points? Where next would you focus....survival or beast mastery? Seems like having pets move a little faster would be nice and if I get stuck in melee range with a melee class I'm toast, but I'd be interested what you found useful apart from marksmanship.

Thanks for the help.

[Ralrra]

I also have a question about pets. If you tame a pet at level 10 and it levels up with you until 25 or so is it basically equivalent to taming a lvl 25 mob?

I've read a few places that people try to get a new pet every 2-3 levels instead of just having the same one level up. Is there any reasoning behind that?

[Jozen]

To my knowledge, higher level pet abilities can only be gained through taming new higher level pets.

[Khalghan]

From what I can tell hunters are not gimped. They are insanely awesome in group pvp. They can chase anyone down and ranged snare, Atm they are the best group pvpers for this reason alone. I have been going through the talents and they are all very good. The shortcommings you are seeing are definitly coming from the fact that high level bows are virtually nonexistant at this time. However im about 90 percent sure that as more hunters start getting near the max they will begin adding alot of new bows. Also ranged always has a big advantage over melee and if there was a surplus of 50+ dps bows hunters would become insanelt overpowered very quickly. As it is now the arrows bonus to dps makes them medium dmg high range fighters. They have runspeed and a very uber melee snare. From what I can tell of the hunter talents ive poured over and having fought 40 plus hunters in beta on my 40 mage hunters are not in any way gimped and were 90 percent of my pvp deaths as a mage.

[Envie]

From what I can tell hunters are not gimped. They are insanely awesome in group pvp. They can chase anyone down and ranged snare, Atm they are the best group pvpers for this reason alone. I have been going through the talents and they are all very good. The shortcommings you are seeing are definitly coming from the fact that high level bows are virtually nonexistant at this time. However im about 90 percent sure that as more hunters start getting near the max they will begin adding alot of new bows. Also ranged always has a big advantage over melee and if there was a surplus of 50+ dps bows hunters would become insanelt overpowered very quickly. As it is now the arrows bonus to dps makes them medium dmg high range fighters. They have runspeed and a very uber melee snare. From what I can tell of the hunter talents ive poured over and having fought 40 plus hunters in beta on my 40 mage hunters are not in any way gimped and were 90 percent of my pvp deaths as a mage.

Using a bow over a gun gave you your first qualifier as 'gimped.'

Sorry to say, testing validated.

High levels, they couldn't compare to a mage or rogue of similar level in dps and add to that the lack of weapon options...

What level did you play one to that you feel they are well rounded and powerful?

-

[Khalghan]

like I said I havent played one, but I have fought against them alot. From what I have seen in the 40ish level range they aren't gimped at all. I could see them being gimped at 50 plus though because of the weapon choices atm but I dont really think thats a reason to judge the class or not play them. I'm pretty sure blizzard will add more bows as people begin to get into the higher levels.

[Nox]

like I said I havent played one, but I have fought against them alot. From what I have seen in the 40ish level range they aren't gimped at all. I could see them being gimped at 50 plus though because of the weapon choices atm but I dont really think thats a reason to judge the class or not play them. I'm pretty sure blizzard will add more bows as people begin to get into the higher levels.

Nowhere did I say that hunters were terrible, please reread my post carefully.

If you didn't beat a hunter that's because you didn't know how. You should have won 100% of the time in a 1one on one situation. Now, in group pvp, yes the hunter is a real punisher to soft targets.

It's hard to figure out what trueshot aura is doing. Noone seemed to know what +ATK was good for. It -appeared- to allow me to high higher level targets for a bigger fraction of my normal damage and to miss less, but - it was hard to test conclusively. With mark, trueshot and hawk I was running ~300 +atk?

For other people, hunter is probably okay. For me, considering I'm planning on doing a lot of very intense duo work with the world's sexiest priest I opted to choose the class she felt was the fastest levelling and best pvp combo. Hunter is 'a little weaker' and I couldn't justify playing a class I liked a little better if it hurt the team.

I hope that's clear enough.

EDIT:

I hope you guys realize that it's unfounded optimism to assume that hunters will get rebalanced before it becomes a problem for you.

[Jinsai]

So Nox just out of curiosity, what class will you be playing? :)

[Envie]

The answer is really going to surprise you and cause many of you to shake your heads in disbelief.

Thanks to Fuleng (IN-QQQQQ), I learned long ago what the perfect duo was.

If you want to really know, you'll have to keep researching.

There is one great class duo, and several pretty good ones. I think I found the fastest, and that's what we decided to go with.

-

[JonChron]

Actually, you should have dueled our hunter. He wasn't even the best geared and was able to beat every class but warlocks consecutively.

I think he got his cc down to perfect timing in most situations. You'll get to meet him in retail. ;)

[Nox]

Actually, you should have dueled our hunter. He wasn't even the best geared and was able to beat every class but warlocks consecutively.

I think he got his cc down to perfect timing in most situations. You'll get to meet him in retail. ;)

Who was your hunter? What level, and where did he pvp?

Dueling isn't the issue, and there were hunter builds you could stack to give an advantage in 'duels'. That however isn't and has never been the issue. We don't build a team around who can solo duel anyone else, even if that point was valid.

[sinz]

My take (sinz666) on Nox's claims about the hunter class:

http://vnboards.ign.com/WoW_Hunter_Class/b22778/79206559/p2

[VIB]

Does it makes any difference if the mob you tame is an elite or not?

I tamed a lvl 10 elite lion thingy I found on mulgore while playing around with a lvl 10 hunter. I did not even compared stats and such also considering it might not make that difference at low levels, but he seemed pretty much the same as other pets.

Oh, and btw, can you get help from others while taming? Like, can an druid entangle a mob for you to tame?

[Saxony]

I originally thought that named elites had higher damage/dps then regular mobs, but now I'm not so sure, they may have a higher potential, but it would be specific ones that have the better dps. Your best bet is to get a pet with a fast attack speed. My friends savannah prowler had higher dps then my echekeyee at the same lvl with the same happiness/loyalty. I found that savannah patriarchs have even better dps then either. There may be better but obviously I haven't tried every pet, savannah patriarchs are going to last me until some strategy guides get released. You can get them at 16 or if your a daredevil and very lucky you can get them at 15 at the earliest.

-Saxony

[Nox]

My take (sinz666) on Nox's claims about the hunter class:

http://vnboards.ign.com/WoW_Hunter_Class/b22778/79206559/p2

Well, your post is fairly combative and hostile. I'm glad you are having fun with your hunter, and good luck to you with it.

I am not making claims, I made observations and those were made after a great deal of testing and thorough analysis. I wouldn't have posted otherwise.

The forums are gone now, but I've tested and posted all-agi builds, int/stam, int/agi and the suit that you saw on thottbot which was spirit/stamina.

My build was designed around sustained dps over a very long period of time, on large fights and mass pvp situations. This isn't a claim, it's a result of running the numbers and comparing effectiveness.

I'll happily discuss the hunter all day - however, dueling and theorycraft isn't a basis for argument. The hunter's role in high end instances -is-, and so is them being on-par as a first tier choice in 5 man groups.

[Ralrra]

The real problem with all classes in my eyes is that there's 8 different classes per side (9 total) and only 5-man groups. If hunter's get buffed up to being a tier-1 choice for a 5-man group, that means another class becomes an "adequate substitute." They aren't ideal, but they'll work if whatever tier-1 class isn't there IE taking a hunter over a mage or rogue right now.