The new group

[rjah]

I have heard a lot of talk about the holy trinity, but I honestly have never seen its value. I suppose it might have its place in Raid content, but in the progression, and instances, to level 60... I don't have the patience for it.


My favorite group:

Shaman (myself)
Druid
Rouge
Rouge
open slot (normally a warlock, but mages or a second shaman can be nice)

People are constantly asking for a tank in instances (even before the warrior nerfs) and I have never seen the value of them. I find aggro swapping to be far more efficient than tanking. I did WC last night at level 18 (yes I have done much harder instances). Our group level was 18. We had 3 shamans (holy crap) 1 druid, and a hunter. From the start the druid was freaking out about having a tank, and that he couldn't be bear and primary healer. I laughed and said I would tank each fight. He didn't belive me and was not going to enter the caves and thus ditch instead of do the instance (how I loathe pickup groups). So I convince him to let us pull some trash mobs.

The first one I tanked the whole fight, and I got owned. I had to use earthbind to kite it while they finished it off. The druid was sure he was right. In honesty though, only myseld and 1 other shaman had attacked... So next fight the whole group got in on it. The druid pulled (moonfire), then one shaman dropped an earth shock (flametounge weapon on him) and myself and the other dropped flame shocks (rockbiter weapons). The hunter started to spam dmg. The mob stayed on the first shaman (who used earth shock). The elite was at half hp in 6 seconds or less. I used earth shock, took the aggro, and tanked the last of it. There was so little dmg done to myself and the other shaman, that the druid didn't even bother to heal us.

In short, that wasn't even an ideal group, but we did the entire instance, without a single wipe (I died once sadly). We did it with aggro swapping.

Out with the old and in with the new I say. Groups should be focused on DPS and aggro swapping, let go of the idea of tanking, because Blizzard has already done so.


PS: In raids, aggro swapping will most probably not be an option, in which case we will have to find a way to make a viable tank again (I hope warriors get a boost).

[IN-QQQQ]

hehehe Practaclly any group will work when you are just pulling 1 or 2 mobs. In the higher instances there is a higher chances of getting more then that. Espically Stratholm where the mobs over around as you clear them, this not to even mention Schoolamance.

Lower instances do not have as many roamers and the pulls are pretty simple.

[rjah]

Actually we had multiple (6+) pulls well over 10 times sadly. I was the only one who had previous experience with the instance (and in some cases instances in general). So just outside of the first bend we had our first 6+ pull. We had these many times.

Not only did we easilly handle all of the mass pulls. We moved through the entire instance (killing every boss and mini, completing all the quests except hides which takes 2 runs most times) in 60 minutes. I am sure we could shave some time off of that, but for a first run for 4 of 5 members, that was insanely good speed.

I know it took 60 mins because I got the MOTW buff at the start, and the druid re-applied it 1 time, and it ran out in the middle of the fight with the final boss (lord serpentis).

In short I find aggro swapping with a heavy focus on DPS to offer much more to a group. Try it for yourself, you might just be suprised.

[Landogarner]

/laugh

What In-Q said ^

[rjah]

What instance does this change happen in? I have heard this statement so many times. Would you consider temple or SM tough enough to be a test for this group? I must admit I have not done BRS or Stratholme, but have you tried this group there?

I am saying that aggro swapping is just as good (if not better) than tanking. Spread the dmg out to as many targets as possible, so maybe on DoT heal will take care of it, and then move on.

Exactly what instance do you feel absolutely has to have a tanker? I must admit I am a bit confused on that subject.

[Envie]

I am saying that aggro swapping is just as good (if not better) than tanking. Spread the dmg out to as many targets as possible, so maybe on DoT heal will take care of it, and then move on.

This is like saying a Druid or Shaman can be main healer just as well as a priest. This is the experience of a lower level player talking, I'm not trying to be snotty or conceited.

The fact is, somewhere around the 50 level mark, maybe even before-hand, the true role of 'main tank' and 'main healer' start to surface. The warrior starts to outlast the other fighters in nearly every way, and the priest starts to out-heal other healers. Sustained healing, like sustained tanking become the key factors... just like you hear the terms "sustained damage" vs. "burst or short term damage" being tossed around for dps classes.

Bottom line: Rogues are a dps class, not a tank. They can dish out plenty, but there comes a time where they can no longer take the hits like a warrior, and there your aggro swapping tactic starts to fall apart. When mobs start hitting for 1k + crits... that's where the meat and potatoes of the holy trinity starts to be important.

I believe they did this on purpose in lower levels to encourage players to choose a wide range of classes that are all very compatible together to enable grouping to be easy to put together and play. The learning curve.

This is not to say that at high levels or endgame nothing but the holy trinity is important... by no means is that what I'm implying. ALL the classes serve very versatile and desirable functions to a group in my opinion. You asked why warriors became favored over rogues to tank high end and I have replied.

This is the way they designed it at endgame. Tank/healer/dps


-

[kaiser]

you are mean!
shamans die really really fast to elite mobs =(

[rjah]

Rouges offer more options than standing there and getting the crap kicked out of them.

If you have a mob that does 500 dmg on a 1k timer...

Cheap shot - 4 second stun (2 combo points)


so if you start with a cheap shot, then you have healed 2000 dmg. Why do i say that? Well that is 2000 dmg that a healer never has to heal. You also give the rouge 2 combo points.

Kidney Shot (rank 2) - 5 points = 6 second stun.

6 seconds = 3000 dmg

even if you get a reduced return rate on your stun (4 seconds) that is another 2000 dmg that you have avoided.

That is with 1 rouge. If needed you can alway drop in a gouge. In the mean time I would expect the group to be damaging the mob.

Drop 1 grace of air totem (rank 2 non spec) +67 agi
Drop 1 Flametounge totem (rank 6 non spec) 29-.5 - 90.8 damage per hit increase
Drop 1 Strength of Earth totem (rank 4 non spec *not the best but meh*) +61 str

Couple that with 2 rouges, 1 a stunner spec, and 1 a DPS spec. A shaman that uses 1h axes (myself) who will grab aggro if needed, a primary healer (druid) that uses melee to fill the time between heals, and then one wildcard slot (warlock for CC and DPS).

If you really think this won't work, then test it. I obviously do not have a level 60 char, and you obviously do, so test it. The beta is almost over, and they will probably not keep our chars (or at least not in any meaningfull way), so you don't stand to lose much (some durability and gold). Just test it.

I know that is and will be my staple group. I can not understand why Blizzard would make classes nessecary in any group, and I defy that fact. Why make a game with a 'learning period' where motly groups can do fine with good planning to start, and then strip that away as the game progresses? Why am I being forced to take a warrior or a priest or even a mage into an instance? Raid content, maybe so, but instances and leveling content.... that is unacceptable. Discredit this however you wish, but I say the proof is in the puddin, and testing it is the only way to prove it (or disprove it).

[Envie]

I give up. I don't think you read anything I said.

If it were just a matter of "go test it!" -- don't you think it would have been done and more widely used by now?

:roll:


-

[Real]

I have heard a lot of talk about the holy trinity, but I honestly have never seen its value. I suppose it might have its place in Raid content, but in the progression, and instances, to level 60... I don't have the patience for it.


My favorite group:

Shaman (myself)
Druid
Rouge
Rouge
open slot (normally a warlock, but mages or a second shaman can be nice)

People are constantly asking for a tank in instances (even before the warrior nerfs) and I have never seen the value of them. I find aggro swapping to be far more efficient than tanking. I did WC last night at level 18 (yes I have done much harder instances). Our group level was 18. We had 3 shamans (holy crap) 1 druid, and a hunter. From the start the druid was freaking out about having a tank, and that he couldn't be bear and primary healer. I laughed and said I would tank each fight. He didn't belive me and was not going to enter the caves and thus ditch instead of do the instance (how I loathe pickup groups). So I convince him to let us pull some trash mobs.

The first one I tanked the whole fight, and I got owned. I had to use earthbind to kite it while they finished it off. The druid was sure he was right. In honesty though, only myseld and 1 other shaman had attacked... So next fight the whole group got in on it. The druid pulled (moonfire), then one shaman dropped an earth shock (flametounge weapon on him) and myself and the other dropped flame shocks (rockbiter weapons). The hunter started to spam dmg. The mob stayed on the first shaman (who used earth shock). The elite was at half hp in 6 seconds or less. I used earth shock, took the aggro, and tanked the last of it. There was so little dmg done to myself and the other shaman, that the druid didn't even bother to heal us.

In short, that wasn't even an ideal group, but we did the entire instance, without a single wipe (I died once sadly). We did it with aggro swapping.

Out with the old and in with the new I say. Groups should be focused on DPS and aggro swapping, let go of the idea of tanking, because Blizzard has already done so.


PS: In raids, aggro swapping will most probably not be an option, in which case we will have to find a way to make a viable tank again (I hope warriors get a boost).


Rogue* by the way

[rjah]

Rogue* by the way

lol fair enough.

as for you Envie, I do read what you post, and I am merely trying to find a way for a system to work for me. Right now the system works great for you, and I am glad it does, as you play a priest. I on the other hand do not wish to have my groups forced.

Due to all of the recent posts from Dal, I am losing what faith I had in warriors. When I instance fight I try to plan for as minimal adds as possible. CC of any form I gladly welcome where appropriate. This would now handicap warriors (old system I guess), making them unable to tank. If on the other hand they handle the full pull (to keep aggro) then we NEED a priest to handle the insane dmg the warrior will be taking.

This means that 2 of my 4 group slots are forcibly filled. As I said the system has no detrimental effect on you, because you are a priest and enjoy grouping with a warrior.

I do not. I just can't really put it any other way. I do not like grouping with a class that has less DPS and more tanking. I think that there should be other options. As I recall Blizzard initially wanted this game to break the trend of the pigeon hole. To not force warriors to be tanks, to not force rogues (notice the spelling real :P), into one type of play style etc. While that seems to be falling apart more and more, and everyone (such as dal) is working hard to get it reversed (if possible), I am worried about my group being forced.

I understand your side of it, and I respect the fact that the holy trinity offers an awesome Instance package deal. They can easilly (pre-warrior nurf) and quickly handle an entire instance with little to no problems.

My side of it (As I stated) is that I want to play with 2 rogues a druid and a shaman (myself). If I can NOT in any way do high end instances with this group, that is going to be a downer on my gameplay experience. It doesn't mean I am not going to buy the game or anything like that. It merely means that the game I have looked forward to for so long (and tested for some 4 months or so) will no longer allow me to play it in a manner I enjoy.


Just as your guild has become attached to the horde (as have I), I have become attached to my group style. Even if it is not possible I am going to try anything I can to make it possible. I suppose the tone of my initial post was far from clear on what I was really posting here for. I wasn't trying to knock your grouping style, I was hoping someone else out there enjoyed mine, and could offer constructive feedback to help me make it feasible.

Thanks for your time, and I am apologize for the confusion.

[IN-QQQQ]

Have you done the high end Instances?
Remeber at Lv 60 the HP differnce between Rogues and Warrios shows up. That was the point Envie was trying to point out.

The dynamics of lower level instances/mobs/players is very differnt then that of the Upper levels. The differnce in the lower levels (such as hitpoints, damage, armor) is very minumal. When you get into Lv 50+, you will start to see that Tanks get into haveing 3K + hitpoints. Their Armor far exceeds the rogue's as well. Couple that with the fact that Elite Mobs at that level start to hit for insane amount of damage.

Rogues just can't take the beating and even if you are trying to do an exchange of Agro, there are a few factors that will mess it up, such as 1 rogue haveing a string of Crits which prevent the other player from takeing it back.

Now you run into the problem that heals now have to heal TWO characters instead of concentrating on one.

[rjah]

Given that even with the new 'fix' warriors are still saying there is a 10 second cooldown on taunt... I do not see how a warrior is going to hold us over in an instance at high levels anymore.

I mean for trash mob grinding I have been told it's fine, but for boss fights, where the huge dps comes in... The warrior can't hold aggro now? uhg.

I know there is a huge HP gap, and I understand that the dmg mitigation difference between Plate and Leather has been made worse recently. I also know that shields now make 50% or more of your AC with ease (especially for shamans).

What if a rouge started the fight with aggro. 4 second stun to start - > bout 2 seconds more needed for a kidney shot, soon as kidney goes off I earthshock (rockbiter on the whole time) to pull aggro and tank the last part of the fight. I mean with 4 second cheap, and a 4 second (after diminishing returns) kidney... would take about 2 extra seconds to get the energy for the 5 point... that means 10 seconds (maybe 11) of rouge tanking, then I take whatever is left.

This would be low offensive mana costs for myself (even though I spec for that) so the primary healer could heal whomever is worse off, and I could heal the other.

I am starting to get a bit worried. I mean dal tells me warriors can tank, and you say they are the only option in high end instances... My future does not look so bright. I am going to be making a small guild with friends, but for most of us, this is our second MMO, I never did EQ (something about it never hooked me), and so I am going to be new to raids. If we can not use a warr for instances... what the hell is going to tank onyxia? I see precision timed fights with her now, and they are still not brining her down.... What about all of the harder raid content? I think I am going to be squished like a bug, and that makes me sad.

Once again any suggestions on a functional group system for instaces (preferrably without a priest or warrior) would be nice. I know I am grasping at straws, but it seems they are all I have to grasp at.

[Kasie]

Given that even with the new 'fix' warriors are still saying there is a 10 second cooldown on taunt... I do not see how a warrior is going to hold us over in an instance at high levels anymore.

I mean for trash mob grinding I have been told it's fine, but for boss fights, where the huge dps comes in... The warrior can't hold aggro now? uhg.

I know there is a huge HP gap, and I understand that the dmg mitigation difference between Plate and Leather has been made worse recently. I also know that shields now make 50% or more of your AC with ease (especially for shamans).

What if a rouge started the fight with aggro. 4 second stun to start - > bout 2 seconds more needed for a kidney shot, soon as kidney goes off I earthshock (rockbiter on the whole time) to pull aggro and tank the last part of the fight. I mean with 4 second cheap, and a 4 second (after diminishing returns) kidney... would take about 2 extra seconds to get the energy for the 5 point... that means 10 seconds (maybe 11) of rouge tanking, then I take whatever is left.

This would be low offensive mana costs for myself (even though I spec for that) so the primary healer could heal whomever is worse off, and I could heal the other.

I am starting to get a bit worried. I mean dal tells me warriors can tank, and you say they are the only option in high end instances... My future does not look so bright. I am going to be making a small guild with friends, but for most of us, this is our second MMO, I never did EQ (something about it never hooked me), and so I am going to be new to raids. If we can not use a warr for instances... what the hell is going to tank onyxia? I see precision timed fights with her now, and they are still not brining her down.... What about all of the harder raid content? I think I am going to be squished like a bug, and that makes me sad.

Once again any suggestions on a functional group system for instaces (preferrably without a priest or warrior) would be nice. I know I am grasping at straws, but it seems they are all I have to grasp at.

First I'd like to say I've been one of the most percistant member in the Onyxia raids, Land of <Exiled>. Last night we did our best, surving a dual warder pull, and getting Onyxia airborne twice (65% hp) with a warrior tank. I'd also like to mention Onyxia kills any cloth class in 1 hit, 2 if they're lucky. She'll kill a rogue or druid in 3, 4 with luck. Lets not even bring her AE into this, unless you have mass resist your dead as anything that doesnt have the uber HP of warriors, UNLESS you get a 1/2 resist as a caster or 1/4 resist as pretty much anything else.

Also, stunning a mob for 4 seconds that does 500 dps is NOT healing for 2000. Healing for 2000 is reliable, doesnt end early, and can be used on every player. Alot of high end mobs have high resist rates etc. And whats the mob gonna do when it unstunns? If you're in pretty much any high end instance its gonna turn round and MS you for about 1500, maybe 2000... Do you know what Mortal Strike does? 50% healing spell effectiveness reduction. Pretty much any high end warrior type mob has this. It will kill anything in your "Aggro swap".

Another problem? Crits! Rogues crit at an insane rate (20-25% of the time). If these happen on the wrong attacks... A friend with 25 dps swords crit my mage on Evinescerate (sp?) and 1 hit killed me. I had MOTW and PWF on me, about 2200 HP. You cant reliably switch Aggro.

Warriors are the only dualfaction class that can stand up to the beating of the 5+ mob pulls of Scholomancy, Stratholme, and Blackrock Spire. You dont see this at the low levels... On my carebear mage I ran the Deadmines with 5 mages (granted during the double damage to elites phase) and we destroyed EVERYTHING without death. 5 Mages in Blackrock Spire would die before they made it to the instance.

Lowbie instances this can work in, Hell you can run the stockades without a healer. Try and run Zul Ferrak or Sunken Temple without a healer? ha. Scarlet Monestary is the last instance your strat MAY work in, I'm not sure what that place looks like now. But as for anything above that... even Uldaman has some mass mob pulls that would destroy you. Archamades or w/e the Uldaman boss is named would destroy you.

You claim you have run other instances in this fassion, what are they?

[Envie]

Ok I'm going to give it one more try here, I honestly want to help you understand the flaw of your reasoning:


I am starting to get a bit worried. I mean dal tells me warriors can tank, and you say they are the only option in high end instances... My future does not look so bright. I am going to be making a small guild with friends, but for most of us, this is our second MMO, I never did EQ (something about it never hooked me), and so I am going to be new to raids. If we can not use a warr for instances... what the hell is going to tank onyxia? I see precision timed fights with her now, and they are still not brining her down.... What about all of the harder raid content? I think I am going to be squished like a bug, and that makes me sad.

You're saying that -you- are going to roll a rogue and that you 'prefer' to play with another rogue, and shamans/druids for healers. You say that this is your playstyle preference and that you will make a guild based on this group makeup.

I have to ask, why exactly are you making a small guild of friends that will include no priests or warriors? It seemed at first you were anti-holy trinity and doing it purposely to prove it can be done (and I can appreciate that challenge), but now I suspect you just don't have anyone willing to play those roles, am I correct? You're going to be a guild of 5?

You further went on to say... how am I going to fight Onyxia if I don't have a warrior?

Uh, I'm sorry, this is a crazy argument! You do realize Onyxia, at the low end of 60+ raid encountering, takes a 40 man team to field, right? Do you intend to have a guild or raid of 40 rogues and druids???

A warrior or paladin combo is going to tank Onyxia, that's what. Just because -you- choose to play a rogue, does not mean -you- have to be the raid tank does it? Tanks are built for ... well, TANKING of course! A warrior is designed to capture and hold aggro, to get beat on and build up rage to do other defensive or offensive moves to hold a monster's attention. It's the basic game mechanics, plain and simple.

Sure, there are lots of other ways to do it, but in the end, it's the tank/taunt combo that has come to pass as the acceptable 'norm' in WoW. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it's what works and it's how they designed the game over the past year. To change it at the last minute to where rogues, mages and others have to manage the aggro is a grievous mistake. Surely you have read dal's 14 page report on this by now... while he fully understands -why- Eno wanted to change the way tanking and taunting works to spread out the aggro control system amongst all players.. the plain bottom line is that they built their entire raid instance tactics and strategy... right down to the way mobs aggro and "pull" in this game based on the mighty tanking warrior model.

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying GREAT, glad you play the rogue/druid combo so well and that it suits your character preferences, but don't expect this to carry you all the way to 60. I could say the same for a 5-10 person small guild too, lack of diversity can be a handicap. These games are designed around the 'Massive' part of MMORPG.

While I admire your detemination to succeed at playing without a priest or warrior in your group... I do not speak merely from 'preference' when I tell you your choices most likely won't work for you in the endgame. You -need- all the classes -- each brings a unique skill or versatility option to the table. Some you end up needing more than others, such as the warrior.

The rogue, whether you like it or not, is a dps class in the same category as the mage. Trying to force it into the role of the tank simply because you wish it will end in frustration and a dead rogue, dead group.

As a priest, at 60, I would no sooner wish to group with two rogues tanking than I'm sure you or your druid would wish me and my arrogant views to trash your party fun. Chain healing and running out of mana trying to keep two rogues sustaining damage on a mob is not my idea of fun. I wouldn't wish that nightmare on your poor druid either. Your Druid, I'm afraid to tell you, will not be able to do it by 55-60+ by the way.

In the end, I can't change your mind. I believe I speak from lengthy beta testing and Nurfed experience, but I am willing to leave you with your own choices. You came here asking someone to validate the possibility of your "new group" idea, and we have gave you the feedback as we see it. I do hope you won't write us off as merely 'elitists' and 'uber guilders' because it's far more to do with common sense and game mechanics than that.


Whatever your gaming choices may be, Good Luck.

-

[rjah]

bah, this makes me sad. =/


BTW, I play a shaman, I have played rogue to 45, but I found it wasn't really my play style.

As for Onyxia raids, I wasn't saying that I was planning to do one without a warrior. I have come to terms that no matter what, raid content = warrior content. I was saying that if warriors can't hold aggro against a single big mob (as per das' 14 page post which I did read), then my group (raid group) will be destroyed. I admit that under no currently foreseeable (sp?) situation could rouges tank a RAID anything. I have heard the stories and read the reports, and I accepted that fact.

As for the guild diversity, I have no idea what everyone is planning to play. My first char will be an orc shaman (because I prefer race over racial ability), and my second char will be whatever the guild has the least of (probably priest). While that will give me 2 healing classes, and I am sure I will be called to play my priest for raids more than my shaman, I am ok with that.

The only thing I was hoping for, was that I could do the Instance content to level 60 (brs etc) without having to rely on a warrior to tank. I am not 100% sure if a guildie will be playing a warrior on release or not, and it was beside the point. I just prefer my grouping style, I find it fast and effective. If I am forced to kneel before the might of a warrior tank, well then I guess I am going to be forced to do it. I am still not going out without a fight though. I plan on running Scholomance and BRS a few times with my group style, I don't mind paying the Durability hit.

As a final note, I would never post anything like this in a place where I did not appreciate the feedback. There would be no reason for me to register on your boards just to discredit the feedback you supply me with. During CB I chose to not level my chars over level 45, I wanted to save some of the game for release. On the other hand your guild maxed out in both levels and gear. You have run all of the instances many times over, and understand them very clearly I am sure. That was why I posted here.

Enjoy your last day of Beta guys, and perhaps we will meet on release. (I will be in the group of 5 corpses you pass as you enter BRD ^_^)