Alcaras Ninja Looting

[rjah]

I have to admit I was fairly taken aback by this, suprise was an understatement.

Tonight (not long ago infact) Alcaras ninja looted the Skullsmoke Pants from Scholomance.

-There were no loot rules set in place at the beginning of the run, infact I even said I wanted the pants.

- Before the box was used there were no 'different' looting rules set. Everything was need based looting, and I needed those pants.

- After the drop I clearly stated, multiple times, that I wanted the pants as well, expecting to get a fair shot to roll.

- Alcaras ninjad the pants, and then tried to make it an 'oh well' or an 'I deserved them more' thing. If he wanted to be 100% garunteed to get them, then do guild only runs, OR set clear loot rules up in advance. This was complete BS.

Pics

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/rjah21/Ninja1.gif

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/rjah21/Ninja2.gif

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/rjah21/Ninja3.gif


Ever so classy. I used to think rather highly of Nurfed, this would be the second Ninja Looter to emerge from your ranks now if I recall correctly. Very disheartening. I hope the appropriate actions are taken by Indalamar or the officers currently in charge.

Beyond disgusting.

[alcaras]

The leader said it since it was my box (since you cannot kill Vectus easily without the Dawn's Gambit box), I could loot them.

http://tinypic.com/516ipd

Your own screenshots show me stating as much :-/

--

It's also worth noting:
1) you were on your level 59 priest alt
2) the other casters in the raid had no issue with me looting

--

For those unfamiliar with the Dawn's Gambit, it's the end of a VERY long quest chain (starting from getting dragon essences in Burning Steppes). Getting this box makes all the yellow elite skellies in Vectus's room red non-elites, thus making them trivial to kill. If Vectus does not drop the pants, you have to go and re-get the quest from Light's Hope Chapel each time.

Without the box, you won't be able to kill the yellow elite skeletons. I was the only raid member who had completed the long quest line and the only raid member who had the box. Thus I, and my fellow raid members, felt that I had the right to loot the pants because without the box that I had put hard work into getting, they would not even had the chance to drop.

--

A helpful analogy -- Pristine Hide of the Beast in UBRS.

If someone has 300 skinning and has Finkle's Skinner, they are entitled to the hide. If two people have it, then they can random. The same principle applies in this case.

[rjah]

Please notice the ? after his statement of them being yours or not. Then explain to me how him saying randomly on the spot that you get an item would suddenly free you from the standard loot rules?

You ninjad that loot, and you know it.

You said NOTHING about it being 100% yours at either the start of the raid or the start of the event. Even after I expressed that I wanted the pants MULTIPLE times.

You get one little word from one person NOT interested in the pants, and you ninja them without hesitation... afraid of losing the roll.

Alcaras you are a ninja looter, and you can not pain the pitcure any other way.

[rjah]

Q u o t e:

--

It's also worth noting:
1) you were on your level 59 priest alt
2) the other casters in the raid had no issue with me looting



1)Since when do you have the power to choose which playesr are allowed to have which items? Because this priest is my second char does not mean it will be the one to get less attention, such as being my main? Oh wait Indalmar's hunter must be an alt too... shucks no gear for him right?

2) Two other people willingly passed, that is THEIR choice, I did NOT pass, that is MY choice. You simply decided that you deserved it and so you took it.

-- There is no way in hell that if ANYONE ELSE outside of Nurfed did this that there would be ANY question as to his crime. Since alcaras is from nurfed he thinks that it is suddenly ok for him to steal gear. Suddenly alcaras owns the server, and chooses who gets what gear, because me needing the pants as much as he does doesn't seem to matter.

Q u o t e:

--

For those unfamiliar with the Dawn's Gambit, it's the end of a VERY long quest chain (starting from getting dragon essences in Burning Steppes). Getting this box makes all the yellow elite skellies in Vectus's room red non-elites, thus making them trivial to kill. If Vectus does not drop the pants, you have to go and re-get the quest from Light's Hope Chapel each time.

Without the box, you won't be able to kill the yellow elite skeletons. I was the only raid member who had completed the long quest line and the only raid member who had the box. Thus I, and my fellow raid members, felt that I had the right to loot the pants because without the box that I had put hard work into getting, they would not even had the chance to drop.



Alcaras, how did you get to Vectus? You soloed the entire instance? Oh wait, no we had to 10 man raid it. You can kill the adds without the box, they are merely normal elites, and it takes a lot longer to clear the room. Aside from that getting the box again is trivial (completing the quest does take effort I agree), as you merely go and talk to 1 npc and they give you a new box.

Trying to divert the facts of this thread, and ply on the heartstrings of sympathetic Nurfed fanbois does not negate your crime. You stole an insanely rare, overtly awesome, pants drop.

Once again I stated clearly MULTIPLE times that I wanted those pants, and I also stated my desire to roll. You stole them, you ninja looted. Accept reality.

[Indalamar]

Ninja looting is not something that Nurfed tolerates. We will look into the matter and gather the details around the event.

Also keep in mind that if the leader of the raid group told him prior to the raid that he was going to get the item then you will need to take the issue up with the raid leader for not informing the members of the raid the loot rules prior to starting.

[dNa]

Sorry to say, but i see evidence of greed and ninja here. While it might be hard to loose a roll on a very rare item to a lev 59 aka if you urself did scholo a lot for those pants. Still noone said you can take it, at least you should wait till the situation is clear. I can understand rjah is angry, those situations are the reason that i dont do public raids.

Btw. we also roll on the beast hide on ubrs ! Even if there is only 1 person that can skin it, still there were 10-15 persons helping him to get there so they have 100% same rights to get it.

[Hiero]

While it might be hard to loose a roll on a very rare item to a lev 59

what you're not understanding here is this:

If Alcaras hadn't triggered the box, the pants would not have dropped.

If you kill the beast, he has a chance to drop finkle's skinner and someone in the raid might already have 300 skinning. Thus, you might still be able to get the pristine hide without having FInkle's Skinner before you start.

There is zero chance to get those pants if someone in the raid has not completed the daw's gambit quest. Also, finishing this quest is quite a lot harder than acquiring finkle's skinner. Thus, the person who triggers the quest ending in scholo should probably receieve auto-looting rights on the pants.

The only way rjah would have any claim to the pants is if he had also completed the quest and thus could trigger the event.

[PcT]

that leader said: alc's?

wich mean he didnt directly say to u to grab it... Just a question not an command..

[^Deman]

If u got the UBRS key to open up and go inside which is also a long 5-6 step quest.automaticly every item in the raid is yours.


Dawns Gambit is a repeat quest-for the first time you get your reward,most of the time he drops only scourge stones so in fact thats a rare drop and it should be rolled by all cloth users who need it.

Same as blood of innocents which you obtain after killing the Doc in a 5 man group scholo ,summon Kirtonos The Herald and say to the other 2 warriorz in the raid the boots of Valor belong to you becouse you had the blood to summon him....

screens show greed

[Anonymous]

ninja or no ninja, i do not get why you have to discuss this in a public forum. Neither do i get why you want others to state their opinion on the topic.

How about you let the guild leader tough it out with alcaras.
I am sure you will find a viable Solution for this particuar situation.

I never really got the idea behind ninja looting and/or witchhunt that goes with it.

Alcaras surely shows greed. Anyone of us can feel your pain.

But we really do not know whats behind it as we do not know what loot rules where made up by the leader.

When you decided to clear the room, did you state that if the pants drop you want a shot at'em?

Would you have taken the xtra hour it takes to clear the room if th ebox would not have been available?

we do not know this things and thus are not to judge what happened here imo.

[Othelol]

Alc's a great guy. When I saw the title of this thread, he was just about the last person I was expecting to see named. I doubt he made a conscious effort to ninja those pants - he probably sincerely believed that the rule was "box = get."

[rjah]

I am sorry I thought I made it clear: No loot rules other than NBG were set at the start of the instance/raid.

I would also like to question people who think that because you bring the box it is your drop... Does that mean anyone in a pug ubrs without a key gets no loot? Seriously if the statement holds true for one, it does for both. Both require a large investment of time to aquire, and both are needed to access a part (or all) of an instance. Also in both circumstances, only 1 person need have it for everyone to benefit.

I captured as much of the discussion as I could with screen shots, the rest was cropped due to the chatlog limit =/

But no loot rules were set at the start that would in any way hint that alcaras got that drop regardless. And once again I mentioned before the raid even started that I only wanted 3 things from the instance, and those pants were one of the items I wanted. (I didn't want the dreadmist helm, and it was given to the lock with no complaint from me, because I honestly did not want it.)

[^Deman]

ninja or no ninja, i do not get why you have to discuss this in a public forum. Neither do i get why you want others to state their opinion on the topic.


bcz hes pissed

[Fesan]

why is everyone trying to get nurfed members kicked, like its a witch hunt :)

[evilution]

[Stout War Staff]

[tiny]

I personally are somewhat amazed at how you guys are handling this. He clearly ninjaed the pants, and you know what? even IF the raid leader told him he could have them, if someone else wanted to roll he should have let them. The hide in UBRS is a aweful example, as everyone has a right to roll on that too. You helped kill the beast, so without your help there would be NO dead beast to skin. Same thing here. The group has a RIGHT to roll on it.

I once, had a friend in nurfed who will remain nameless, and he told me he didn't really like it and you guys were assholes. Coming from UO I didn't think it was to big a deal, as everyone has their days(speically on that game). But the way you handle this and your elitist attitudes really are bringing you down.

He maybe a great guy, but he is a greedy one and clearly ninja'd. Should he be kicked? Maybe. Should he have to conpensate the other person ontop of anything else? Yes.

[Alqwa]

If you look carefully, Alcaras rolled three OMGs over Alystra's one.

[thglid5]

Doesnt look like the leader knew what was happening, so I doubt he made it clear to the raid members or Alc for that matter.

"Sincerely believed the gambit..." or not, the OP got shafted.

[Tivoli]

I personally are somewhat amazed at how you guys are handling this. He clearly ninjaed the pants, and you know what? even IF the raid leader told him he could have them, if someone else wanted to roll he should have let them. The hide in UBRS is a aweful example, as everyone has a right to roll on that too. You helped kill the beast, so without your help there would be NO dead beast to skin. Same thing here. The group has a RIGHT to roll on it.

I once, had a friend in nurfed who will remain nameless, and he told me he didn't really like it and you guys were assholes. Coming from UO I didn't think it was to big a deal, as everyone has their days(speically on that game). But the way you handle this and your elitist attitudes really are bringing you down.

He maybe a great guy, but he is a greedy one and clearly ninja'd. Should he be kicked? Maybe. Should he have to conpensate the other person ontop of anything else? Yes.

Sorry but i don't see where it has been handled yet, we handle things like this privately with the accused, there is no reason to handle this publicly, only the end result should be made public if at all. The hide was a bad example on Alcaras' part sure, but maybe that's the way that some PUG's work the loot, everyone does it differently, so if other groups Alcaras has been in that go for Vectus and they do loot as box = legs then maybe that was the ruleset he is used to, i'm not sure as i haven't had a chance to talk to him.

Yes there was one other instance of Ninja looting in Beta that we dealt with which was very close to the the person being removed from the guild and in fact he was for several days while we decided what to do.

As far as your nameless friend, perhaps this wasn't the guild for him then, every guild isn't for every person, just the same as IRL there are certain people that you just don't get along with, but others get along fine with them and think the opposite of them than you do.

[Mithras]

Ordinarily I dont get involved in these sorts of issues but those SS's are damning, to say the least. I dont know any of the involved and personally I dont think it is necessary I do so.

What I do think is once the guy said he would like in on the random that should have been it. Hell, its still a 50/50. You sold your in-game integrity for a pair of pants, IMO. I guess youre in "the" server raid guild so this doesnt matter to you.

I understand your argument about the box...its a pita. But...you could not have got to where the "box" was worth a damn w/o the rest of your /raid. Simple as that. If the guy asked to be in on the /random it should have happened. The RL does not appear to have been "in" on the whole "agreement"...indeed, if there was one at all.

Bottom line...looks bad for a top guild when its members do something like this. To each his own.

GL to you both.

[Eko]

Im all up in your buisness to.

[Thaurdruk]

haha oh this is great

[Nub]

I'm kinda amazed someone brought this to the public!.

[Ei]

Omg tiny dumbass !

[FallenDevil]

I would have to agree with nub. Even tho it seems like good forum drama to read, I believe this is a matter that could/should have been handled internally not publicly....just my opinion....that doesnt matter at all to y'all

[Dalavar]

I fail to see how this sort of thread does any good. This type of matter should have been handled in private, and having a million people speculating and gossiping about it does nothing but waste internet bandwidth...just like this post as nobody cares.

[Thaurdruk]

so what are you guys the 6 people who don't post on the wow forums.. haha I mean I agree but still come on !

[evilution]

Keep it rolling I'm board at work.

[FallenDevil]

what is this wow forums you speak of...damnit...i'm always outta the loop

Owning a UT2K4 server website and forums i would be slightly appauled by all this nonsense in the public eye but ya i am small and insignificant in the wow world

[Mithras]

Keep it rolling I'm board at work.


Bwahahaa...I was just thinking the exact, same, thing.

[Trev]

This instance aside (which should be handled privately) I wanted to mention the accused Alcaras's history. He has made innumerable posts benefitting the public Mage community. No information has been held back and all is shared. Things such as a beginner's mage guide, item databases, and data breakdowns that Alcaras put together to benefit the community and not just himself. These can be found below:


Mage Beginner's Guide:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=23&p=1&tmp=1#post23

Item Listing:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=12046&p=1&tmp=1#post12046

Mage Community Issues represented cohesively:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=157529&p=1&tmp=1#post157529

I highly doubt that greed would have taken over his judgement and that the essence of this whole issue is a misunderstanding.

if box didnt equal get wtf is the point of doing this? wasting quest for other person to get pants... seriously whoever posted this i dont think u see its obvious that the person who goes through the trouble for something gets the reward

[Watzit2ya]

This post has more drama than TNT!!!

[Inalende]

So the real question is: "Is Reyals mad, and what would he have done w/ the pants?" because you obviously lost the roll to him =P

[coke]

....



I'm sure Alcaras is fully geared minus these pants and his only reason for even going in Scholo was this..


Oh noes, he didn't mention that was the reason.. He just repeatedly did the Dawn's Gambit quest(tedious as hell) to easily clear the room just so a L59 ALT could get the pants. Oh yeah, that was his reasons for doing it!



Get real...


...and regardless of the guilds status on the server, have some fucking respect and take it to them personally.. The only reason you posted it on the forums was to be an attention whore and cause drama.


You sir, are a winnar!

[FallenDevil]

...and regardless of the guilds status on the server, have some fucking respect and take it to them personally.. The only reason you posted it on the forums was to be an attention whore and cause drama.


Holy crap?!? Drama?!? online?!?

Damn i remember back in the good ol days when i would play duke nukem over the 28.8k modem and the only thing causing this much stess and drama was my motherboard catching on fire. Damn i miss them days

[Jin]

He probably made it public to ensure Nurfed would take the matter seriously, and not hush it. Can't blame him. As for Alcaras, granted, he apparently did alot for the mage community. So what? does that entitle him to free loot?

The text is there, you can see for yourself, no point denying it really. He did act out of greed. The leader of the raid clearly hadn't stated the pants were his, so the rule was NOT box=get. Wether it should have been or not is another matter. I'm not saying Alc didn't deserve them. What he did was greedy though, and disrespectful to other members of the raid. Maybe you think the rule should always be box=get, and same with the hide. I do agree with that. But the fact is that the raid he was in did not set this rule, and he still acted as if they did. If that isn't greed, i dunno what it is.

[FallenDevil]

wow this one just wont die i guess

[Uziel]

Box = get. End discussion. I don't play on Archimonde so I'm not brown nosing, before some neckbeard says so.

[emphase]

I support Alcaras on this.

Any players under 60 don't derserve any set items / end items unless everyone in the group don't need them. It's need before greed yes but you have to take in consideration 2 factors in a guild run:
A) Instance expectation
Alcaras expected most likely this item to drop in Scholomance. Your level 59 priest expects only set item when entering the dungeon, you didn't think of this as your primary goal until it dropped and started drooling and you applied reverse greed.

I will define reverse greed as the flawless / bulletproof greed. It's the worst form of greed among the elitist guild / players as the person using reverse greed can't be faulted for it (because most people don't think about it). It's when a player goes in an instance with a goal but takes someone else's goal AND still manage to get a chance to his goal.

Example: You go to UBRS and before entering UBRS you are expecting (i.e.) Devout robe to drop. But suddenly the pristine hide of the beast drops. You are entitled theorically to roll on the pristine hide as it's a collective effort but the fully geared skinner who ONLY expects this hide to drop and collected all the other items (10 arcane crystales, 5 stitches and 5 scarlet thread) should have priority over anyone who didn't expect or didn't start collecting the items for it.

Now mr. reverse greed (priest) win the pristine hide and then suddenly his devout robe drops and he is the only priest in the UBRS group. See what I mean by reverse greed? That priest abused the system to win 2 uber items: the hide and the devout robe. He is wise, he knew that he can theorically bypass the system by rolling on something he didn't expect and still have the chance to win what he expected. If it was a non guild group and saw this happen, it's 1 blue/epic per run. You think your wise stealing someone else's expectation, I will make you unable to roll on your devout robe and give it to a mage or warlock or disenchant it and roll for shard as punishment. In a guild run I would not do this but you mr priest will definitely get personally blacklisted in my book and will explain the guild what you were thinking.

B) Time
When you are playing in a guild, time to find an item is a consideration. Alot of guildies who just hit 60 raiding in a guild raid will pass an item that someone expected to drop for more than 30 runs. This apply to guilds only as in pick up raid, nobody will give a rats ass about how many runs you did.

[Rekuul']

I agree with you Emphase and I honestly think its laughable that a 59 PRIEST is put on the same level of NBG as a Mage or Warlock for Skullsmoke. Take a look at Spiritshroud Leggings for instance. Fairly comon drop in UBRS and arguably JUST AS GOOD for a priest.

That being said I think Alcaras could have handled the situation a lot better and I told him as much in vent shortly after this happend. Im sure he will be talked to and something will be worked out between the leader of Fatalis and us. Despite what some angry confused people on various forums may believe the leadership of this guild does not take stuff like this for granted.

The real issue here is Alcaras's failure to communicate and Ronin's overzealous desire to communicate. One failure lead to a case of ninja looting and the other lead to a whole lot of unneeded drama. And from what I gather leadership on both sides are none too pleased with the way their members handled this.

-Rek

[Av]

JUST AS GOOD for a priest

Way better.

[rjah]

I support Alcaras on this.

Any players under 60 don't derserve any set items / end items unless everyone in the group don't need them. It's need before greed yes but you have to take in consideration 2 factors in a guild run:


This was not a guild run, this was a pug run. Had it been a guild run I am sure I would have been told at the start that I was not allowed to roll on those pants.



A) Instance expectation
Alcaras expected most likely this item to drop in Scholomance. Your level 59 priest expects only set item when entering the dungeon, you didn't think of this as your primary goal until it dropped and started drooling and you applied reverse greed.


At the start of this raid I clearly stated I was only coming for 4 items. Only 1 of which was a set item.

- dreadmist shoulders
- Skullsmoke Pants
- Shivery Handwraps
- Allana's Embrace

Why would I want the crap devout set?



I will define reverse greed as the flawless / bulletproof greed. It's the worst form of greed among the elitist guild / players as the person using reverse greed can't be faulted for it (because most people don't think about it). It's when a player goes in an instance with a goal but takes someone else's goal AND still manage to get a chance to his goal.


A few people at the start of the run stated a desire for the Dreadmist helm. I clearly stated at the start that I would pass on the item, because I did not want it. So even though it was an upgrade, it was no the upgrade I wanted. When we killed the headmaster, the DM mantle dropped. It was given to the warlock without a single word of complain from me at all. Why? I had passed on it to start the instance.



Example: You go to UBRS and before entering UBRS you are expecting (i.e.) Devout robe to drop. But suddenly the pristine hide of the beast drops. You are entitled theorically to roll on the pristine hide as it's a collective effort but the fully geared skinner who ONLY expects this hide to drop and collected all the other items (10 arcane crystales, 5 stitches and 5 scarlet thread) should have priority over anyone who didn't expect or didn't start collecting the items for it.


My priest is a 300 skinner, and has finkle's skinner. When the hide drops from me skinning it, it will be a raid wide loot roll. I accept this fact. I would also like to point out I have no desire for the devout robes.



Now mr. reverse greed (priest) win the pristine hide and then suddenly his devout robe drops and he is the only priest in the UBRS group. See what I mean by reverse greed? That priest abused the system to win 2 uber items: the hide and the devout robe. He is wise, he knew that he can theorically bypass the system by rolling on something he didn't expect and still have the chance to win what he expected. If it was a non guild group and saw this happen, it's 1 blue/epic per run. You think your wise stealing someone else's expectation, I will make you unable to roll on your devout robe and give it to a mage or warlock or disenchant it and roll for shard as punishment. In a guild run I would not do this but you mr priest will definitely get personally blacklisted in my book and will explain the guild what you were thinking.

B) Time
When you are playing in a guild, time to find an item is a consideration. Alot of guildies who just hit 60 raiding in a guild raid will pass an item that someone expected to drop for more than 30 runs. This apply to guilds only as in pick up raid, nobody will give a rats ass about how many runs you did.


Please keep in mind a few things people.

1) This was a public run, not a guild run. The loot system for the raid was Need Before Greed. There were no 'special skullsmoke pants' looting rules set.

2) The item that was taken was one of the few I had my eye on previous to going into the instance. This was not some crazy 'reverse greed' thing.

3) I clearly stated multiple times, both at the beginning of the run (where if there were special looting rules it would have been sorted out), and at the time of the drop, that I wanted a shot at those pants.

4) I posted this on the boards less to be a drama whore (my pesonal emotions govern no guild or political body that I am aware of), but rather to try and ensure this would at least be looked into. In all honesty I really do not know a lot about Nurfed, and so they could have just swept this aside and done nothing... Then I would have felt double shafted.

5) Past merits do not negate future crimes. When a soldier in the army recieves medals and accolades, and after that time has passed commits a crime, he is still punished for the crime. There is no special consideration given.

As for the reputation of Alcaras, I was suprised this event occured as well.

[amaru]

maybe alcaras should of made it more clear that he was going to loot the item with no rolls if it dropped

[Trend]

This was poor form to say the least.

In a non-guild raid, I don't understand why having the box would give entitlement to the loot. This use of the llogic that the loot wouldn't drop without the box (not sure if this is even true or if it is more a matter of the time cost) would seem to lend itself to support all sorts of poorly formed claims.

In my opinion, Alc really wanted to believe the pants belonged to him and probably got carried away with the moment. There seems to have been a progression from sort of claiming them ("my box :-/") to the raid leader indicating maybe ("to Alc?") to an all-out certainty they were his all along in these threads (this one and the blizz forum one.) We all do this - change the certainty of our conviction when we're backed in a corner - but it's still troublesome. The particular points of debate (having box = getting pants, for instance) aren't as relevant as the evolution of the claim.

Let's be a little objective and recognize the claim that has been brought is not completely lacking in merit. I don't agree with the 'Nurfed ninjas again' claim as I think it's inaccurate and it panders to the anti-Nurfed bandwagon crowd, but I am troubled by what I see in the chat log provided. I realize my opinion has very little value givin my meaningless existance on the server, but I hope you take it for what it is. There are people such as myself who want to respect what you guys are about.

[Inalende]

So rjah, what thoughts do you have on the fact you weren't going to win the pants anyways because Reyals won them; the person who started the raid, and Alc said told him he could get them. I don't know any of the facts w/ this just pointing out that you lost anyways and Reyals would be the one who is angry w/ Alcaras. Also, don't say he didn't win because it was NBG when your first post said there were no looting rules at all. Again, not saying it's right for alc to take them over Reyals, but just wondering if Reyals would have told Alc he can have them or what not.

[alcaras]

It was my understanding the box=get. That is the rule I've known and played with since Beta. I thought this was an unwritten rule that everyone understands in pickup groups, much like only tailors should roll on tailoring recipes, etc.

It boggles my mind that you would want to roll on an item that would not be there had I not used my quest item. Consider the hypothetical scenario: we roll, you win, you take pants. Is that fair to me considering without my quest item it is very likely the raid would have skipped Vectus?

I said in raid chat before the raid started I was there for three items: "headmaster's charge, alanna's embrace and skullsmoke pants." I said I would roll on charge and embrace, but if pants dropped and no one else had the box, I felt entitled to them. This was said before everyone gathered at Scholomance.

I feel that there's simply been a misunderstanding of "common law" regarding loot rules. You rolling on the pants when I was the only one who had the box would have been opportunistic and greedy on your part, not fair play.

Unfortunately, it appears you and I had different notions of the "common law" surrounding loot :-/ Should we have discussed it over the corpse? Perhaps. I would not have rolled, you would have cried for a roll and the pants would have likely rotted while we debated.

[emphase]

Ok I didn't read all but ok you aren't totally right and Alcaraz isn't right either. A compensation would need to be done to the highest roll, not you as you lost anyways the roll on the pants according to what people say. I would value those pants at 300 gold considering all the uncertainties and the main fact that it's Alcaras's box. If the person who won had a beef with Alcaras, they can solve them privately. As you lost the roll on them it's none of your business.

[alcaras]

maybe alcaras should of made it more clear that he was going to loot the item with no rolls if it dropped

I did say this, but unfortunately only before the raid started and not before the actual event.

I should have made absolutely clear before dropping the box that if the pants dropped they were mine because it was my box. I assumed that was an well-known rule, because I had seen such a rule on many PUGs in Beta and release.

[tiny]

Without the group would you have killed him to get the pants? No, so he had a right to roll.

[Patrick]

He's a witch! Burn HIM! BUURRRNNN HIM! :lol: Haha just playin' but it seems like a lot more drama than is necessary to me. It's over and nothing can be done so what do you hope to accomplish by making a scene? Now I'm not a big gamer and WoW is the first MMO i've ever taken seriously (Not too seriously though.) so maybe it's a bigger deal than I'm recognizing but, eh. . . You guys will live and no one is seriously hurt.

[Watzit2ya]

Heres what I get from the 4 page thread.

Alcaras = The Winner

Other guy = tough break

[Trend]

Alcaras,

Do you see why this is troubling? None of us were there and we don't know what was said before the raid started. Was it ever made clear to the group the pants were yours if they dropped?

The only indication from the log that anyone else thought they were yours was when Reyals said "alc's?", which doesn't seem to carry a lot of conviction given the question mark at the end. You seem to be saying you knew they were yours all along, but before looting, you spoke in raid chat four times:

"mine..."
"it was my box, can i have?"
"i have run this 2042 times"
"and have reset box each time"

Your claim that you knew they belonged to you and the raid leader agreed would have be a lot more convincing had you looted them right away and had the raid leader given unequivocal support. Personally, I wouldn't roll on the pants in this situation if it was someone else's box, but there was certainly not clarity on the issue and you went ahead and took them.

Then you whispered:

"usually rule is box = gets"
"box = gets was my understanding"

If it's 'usually' and your 'understanding', I would think that you would understand why someone would be very upset with what happened. If it's 'usually' box = gets, then there would be times when that wasn't the case. If it's not the same each time, it would seem to be open to question. If it's open to question, it would seem the discussion should take place before the looting. Now, however, you're saying you assumed it was a well-known rule, which is different.

Again, the way you talked at the time seemed to carry much less conviction than what you're saying now. It's this inconsistency that makes me think you knew you were doing something questionable, but that's very hard to admit after all that's been said.

[Alqwa]

This is like when me and other warrior in raid doing Scholo and we stop by kill Kirtonos the Herald. I never did Scholo 5 man, so I dont have the blood. He have it and summon it. Now he drops Boots of Valor and I tell you one thing.
It would be damn greed of me actually rolling on them.

[IN-QQQQ]

Without the group would you have killed him to get the pants? No, so he had a right to roll.
Screw that, If it was a quest item (box) and I knew people were gonna roll on it, I would NOT have droped the damn thing. Hell I don' tthink I would have gone on the raid except to help get that quest done.

The best is differnt, it is ALWAYS There. Now if you had to summon the besst with a quest item, it becomes much more similar to this situation, but since it's not.......it is differnt.

If it's a quest item to trigger the event, then it goes to the Quester. That's my opinion.

[Creediki]

You've got to be kidding me. The OP displays a lack of common sense in both posting it, and attempting to take advantage of someone else's hard work. If they wanted the pants, they could go and do the quests for the box themselves, and remember to get it from Light's Hope each time. Getting to an event, and then assuming they could roll on an item that would not have even dropped with out the box is just disgusting. I hope news of your revolting greed gets out and no one ever groups with you again.

[Tivoli]

Let's quit dragging each other through the mud, both parties are wrong and both are right in their own way, this battle cannot be won on the forums, and should only involve the people that were there and their respective GMs as mediators. The only way to resolve this is to come to a mutual agreement between said parties.

[Selm]

hey since this isnt public forums i can post how i really feel?

eat shit you fucking CAREBEAR
gratz alcaras on the pants

you whiny little shits shoulda played UO where fastest looter was king

TAKEN ABACK
BY ALCARAS'S BEHAVIOR

OH

NOES

!!

[rjah]

I hope those pants are worth your rep.

I also don't think Alcaras ninja looting has anything to do with Nurfed yet. What they do about it will decide Nurfed's rep, because I highly doubt they knew in advance this person would ninja loot something. Looking forward to an official response. =]



I can not agree with this post more.

I would like to make a sincere apology to the guild Nurfed as a whole. This thread was not intended to bring down a guild image, but rather to make the community aware of Alcaras' actions.

I have changed the title of the thread to properly reflect that, and it was definately an oversight on my part to use your guild name in the thread's initial creation.

I would ask that if anyone else chooses to post on this thread that you keep your comments to the incident, and not as generalizations to the guild. The actions of one man do not tarnish a guild, the actions of a guild tarnish a guild.

I highly doubt Indalmar told Alcaras to do this, and as such this was a solitary action from Alcaras. Please keep the posts inline with the topic. The topic is the event in question, done by the player Alcaras, not by his guild.

Once again my apologies to Nurfed.

[rjah]

As a final note the 'box' is not needed to kill vectus.

You can kill the mobs without the box, the box merely makes it faster. If you don't have to box you have to kill elites instead of AoE spam, but it can still be done.

As for it being your 'understanding' alc that box = gets, and that you 'clearly stated in advance' that these pants were yours alone...

Please refer to the first screen shot, where the leader of our raid says: 'Roll for Pants'

For everyone else saying Reyalis won the roll for pants, you are wrong, please read the ss carefully. The roll he won was for the 'Corruptors Scourgestone'.

Once again there was no roll for the pants.

[n0d3]

the room is clearable without the box, yep, thats true....

however.... i've NEVER on the 9485973534 scholo runs i've ever done cleared that room without that box, why? , its a BIGASS sidetrack for the raid for a boss that has ANY drops on rare drop rate (most of the time he doesnt even drop shit).

basically.... 99% of raid groups only do that room thx to the person with the box, so if you want to get those pants get a leather/plate/mailwearer to get the box so the rest of the cloths can roll, but if a clothwearer is the one with the box, you better let him get his fucking legs because if it werent for him you wouldn't be doing that room anyways.

[n0d3]

this shit's simple, this thing does NOT belong to the public , does NOT belong on the mage forums, does NOT belong anywhere but on private /tells

sure it does seem greed on alcaras's part that he just took them... but dude.. wtf? YOU know you wouldn't be doing that room had it not been for his box, you're on a lvl 59 priest who CLEARLY benefits more from spiritshroud leggins, seriously... as a priest... start concerning more about +spirit because it shows you haven't done any high end content at all , where spirit is gold for healers.

even if you had the ability to roll ,even if you could wear it, in the end... have some common decency and let the person who got his box to clear the room who allowed the raid to clear it (seriously... NOBODY on their right mind would clear that room without that box).

in the end... what would happen had you rolled and won those pants would be frustrate the person that was there for that and took the troubles to get the box, and you would've switched those pants for +spirit once you start having 0 mana on high-end content because those pants dont have ANY spirit at all.

[alcaras]

At the start of the raid I said that I was there for three items: Headmaster's Charge, Alanna's Embrace and Skullsmoke Pants. I said I would roll on Charge and Embrace; if Pants dropped using my box, I would take them. Raid leader and everyone else had no complaints with this when I said it.

When pants did drop, I reminded the raid leader that it was my box, I felt I was in the clear since we had all agreed (or at least no one had disagreed) two hours before and I could take them.

Do I feel this is all unnecessary drama? Yes. Should this have been handled privately? Yes. Should I have reminded folks of the rules we had agreed to immediately BEFORE I dropped the box rather than relying on their memory of what I had said 2 hours before? Yes. Have I ever ninja-looted something? No.

[PcT]

I do see that Alcaras ninjaed them with confusing.. It would be unfair to get blacklisted for some confusion... Just settle the whole thing strait and be friends with eachother... Its a bloody item, better to get friends then sacrificing all for an freaking ITEM.

[Kremlin]

After you've done the line can't you just go back to the guy in EP and pick up the box?

The quest line is not some huge long line, it's pretty short and simple and easy to obtain. While I only did it once and never attempted to get another box i'd *assume* that you don't have to do the entire line over again.

[amaru]

yeah but you have to run ALL the back to lights hope to get a new box, this clearly makes it ok for alcaras to take them.

[Trax]

I am naked right now :shock:

[Alqwa]

I am naked right now :shock:
This man deserved the pants.

[Hellhammer]

rofl you wanna see some ninja looting?
http://www.austinc.com//upload_files/Terroz.jpg

[n0d3]

ooooops!! ftw! =P , my personal favorite is cireth from tichondrius , lol , now THATS some funny ninja looting :)

[Nozerac]

IMO having the box gives you the right to the item. Much like class set items goes first hand to their respective class. In all raids I attended the warlock items goes to warlocks unless no warlock wants the item, then someone else can roll for it for example. If you cleared that room without a box then all should be entitled to a roll, but when one or more in your raid has done the Q only they should be allowed to roll for that item, unless they don't want it. Saying that without the raid you wouldn't have killed the boss= all can roll is just bs imo. Of course you need the raid to kill something, but does that give you the right to roll on everything you see just because you are in the raid? I think not. As I see it most people agree on that without the box that boss is not even cleared, the people who have gotten the box should roll for that, no one else. If only one person has the box, then he gets the item.

My opinion.

[Indalamar]

I am going to investigate the matter.

[Indalamar]

The leader of the raid in question said that he agreed to Alcaras prior to the raid that he was entitled to the pants in the event that they dropped.

Closed issue in my book.