New axe from Ragnaros

[Shoken]

Someone posted this in the WoW warrior forum.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=236764&p=1&tmp=1#post236764

Showing this axe:

http://www.kidfortoday.com/johnny/spinalreaper.png

Spinal Reaper
Two-Hand Axe
203-305 Damage 3.40 Speed
74.7 DPS
Equip: Restores 150 mana or 20 rage when you kill a target that gives experience: this effect cannot occur more than once every 10 seconds.
Equip: +34 Attack Power

I was wondering how it stacks up to the sword that Rag drops:

Bonereaver's Edge
Two-Hand Sword
206 - 310 Damage Speed 3.40
(75.9 damage per second)
Chance On Hit: Reduces target's armor by -300 for 60 seconds.
Passive: Improves your chance to get a critical strike by 1%.

I expect my guild will be killing him soon and I'll eventually have to make this descision. I'm thinking I may just loot whatever drops first for us, but am leaning towards the sword for the higher max damage. Only losing 4% chance to crit for 6% chance for another attack.

Any thoughts?

[Kaylos]

The axe also has +34 attack power and at 3.4 speed, meaning at 6-7 points of dmage added to max, which would put it higher than the sword. I would not argue with getting either though.

[uro]

Its so much better than bonereavers it isnt funny. While the 1% crit mod on the sword is nice, youre still going to be up 4% from axe spec. 34 Attack power is also really good... but the equip effect is just fucking nuts. 20 rage after each execute in PVP? Yes pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

[Kaylos]

Yeah, forgot, that equip effect is awesome and would be great for group pvp.

[Dunderdon]

"20 rage when you kill a target that gives experience"

hmm how are you gonna kill targets that give experience in pvp :P

[uro]

It works the same way as any "kill x blabhalbalhb", basically the mob/player has to be green to you.

[Kaylos]

Well supposedly bloodthirst fires on any pvp kill, why wouldn't this as well if bloodthirst does? (may be wrong on this, never used bloddthirst myself)

[Anduryondon]

It works the same way as any "kill x blabhalbalhb", basically the mob/player has to be green to you.
If this is really true it would be fucking crazy O_O

[Kaylos]

An awesome axe for sure. I did the math though and there was one weapon that beat it out for single attack damage. The PvP rewards weapon works out to be higher damage in a single attack once you figure in AP gained from weapon bonuses and weapon speed. Not saying its better, and probably as hard to obtain, impossible for most, but that the Grand Marshal/High Warlord only outperform it in one attack for damage.

[Palmen]

Thats the best warrior weapon ingame. <--

[Anonymous]

An awesome axe for sure. I did the math though and there was one weapon that beat it out for single attack damage. The PvP rewards weapon works out to be higher damage in a single attack once you figure in AP gained from weapon bonuses and weapon speed. Not saying its better, and probably as hard to obtain, impossible for most, but that the Grand Marshal/High Warlord only outperform it in one attack for damage.

I'd take the 20 rage for a kill over the str/sta bonus of HW axe anyday.
Execute and still have rage? one Swing on next taget and have enough for a MS again ? Charge next enemy after kill and have 41 rage?

Where do i have to sign up?

[Andrei]

But the Bone Reaver has a MASSIVE -300 armor proc!

[khan3817]

2% Damage reduction not exactly MASSIVE.

[Coldfire]

It would be interesting to see how the rarity of this axe from Rag compares to the likelyhood of getting the HW reward axe. For the more average person, I'd say that even though Rag is hard to kill, and the drop rate probably small, this axe is probably more attainable than the HW's.

[dNa]

Hm, so lets see a caster staff would need like +40stam +40int +60spelldmg to be equivalent to this axt. I just doubt there is a staff like this dropping from rag--

[mediocre]

2% Damage reduction not exactly MASSIVE.





missed a spot of sarcasm, i see

[Fervent]

2% Damage reduction not exactly MASSIVE.

missed a spot of sarcasm, i see

Expecting people to catch sarcasm through type is about the dumbest thing one can do on a forum.

[Sintor]

It's hard to say which is superior, to be honest. Yes, executing for 20 rage in PvP is nice, but then again, so is a 6% chance to proc an extra hit that has your weapon's % chance to critical. Axe spec is 5% chance to critical, which usually is quite high in the first place. Every time you get a sword spec proc, you also roll critical chance, so it is possible to crit the hit that procs sword spec AND crit the sword spec hit. Also, the hit generates rage and you can proc sword spec off of Whirlwind, Overpower, Mortal Strike, and Heroic Strike.

Edit: The reason sword vs axe was a non-issue previously is that there never was a sword worthy of mortal strike. Slow with a high top end. Now that we have one available, the superiority of sword spec can actually come into play.

[commi]

The proc actualy works on any level PC according to my guildie

[mts]

omg givf

[Anonymous]

It's hard to say which is superior, to be honest. Yes, executing for 20 rage in PvP is nice, but then again, so is a 6% chance to proc an extra hit that has your weapon's % chance to critical. Axe spec is 5% chance to critical, which usually is quite high in the first place. Every time you get a sword spec proc, you also roll critical chance, so it is possible to crit the hit that procs sword spec AND crit the sword spec hit. Also, the hit generates rage and you can proc sword spec off of Whirlwind, Overpower, Mortal Strike, and Heroic Strike.

Edit: The reason sword vs axe was a non-issue previously is that there never was a sword worthy of mortal strike. Slow with a high top end. Now that we have one available, the superiority of sword spec can actually come into play.

2nd attack can also miss, so it prolly eveny out.

I myself would take sword specc over axe anyday, i just wanted to mention though you have a chance to crit for both those attacks, you also have the chance to miss/dodged/parried on your 2nd attack. (2nd only cuz the chance is on "dealing dmg with the sword".)

[Kaylos]

If you are careful with your build, you can eliminate, or nearly so, the 5% chance to miss. There are items out there to do this, and not give up but .25% chance to crit.

Lionheart Helm +2% to hit and crit
Battleborn Vambraces +1% to hit and crit
Satyr Bow +1% chance to hit
Elven Tarnished Ring +1% chance to hit and +15 agi for .75% chaance to crit

+5% chance to hit and +4.75% chance to crit from this gear.

That would mostly eliminate fear of missing extra attack, and you would not miss abilities at crucial times. I personally think +to hit is underrated. It add better damage over time than crit, but mostly it means never getting caught with your pants down by missing at crucial moments. And with this gear, you do not give up much for it.

The extra attack could still be dodged/parried/ or blocked, but a dodge lights up overpower, a lot of daamge can still go through a block, and a parrry at least generates rage. +% to hit becomes even mroe important with sword spec I think because of this.

[Kaylos]

An awesome axe for sure. I did the math though and there was one weapon that beat it out for single attack damage. The PvP rewards weapon works out to be higher damage in a single attack once you figure in AP gained from weapon bonuses and weapon speed. Not saying its better, and probably as hard to obtain, impossible for most, but that the Grand Marshal/High Warlord only outperform it in one attack for damage.

I'd take the 20 rage for a kill over the str/sta bonus of HW axe anyday.
Execute and still have rage? one Swing on next taget and have enough for a MS again ? Charge next enemy after kill and have 41 rage?

Where do i have to sign up?


I agree with you,but thought you might find it interesting to see my math and the numbers I obtained concerning the average damage each weapon would do ina single attack.

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11552

[Anonymous]

Now, this is interesting, though you absolutely cannot judge weapons soley on you SSD formula.

If you put equip stats into the deal than you also have to go with others weapon based statistic.

On you SSD have you counted crits inot the mix? And Crit Chance?

Maces will always lack a lot of potential there.

If you put +str into the mix and +attack power what def. ups the PvP weapon on your bill, but leave out procs that (in case of the doomsaw) can equal 1000 dmg added, you will not get an accurate view on this.

I really like the work you have put into this. It just is not complete.

by absolutely NO means would i take the nicker over the doomsaw.
Also wouldn't take the nicker over the retaliator. Or the Barb. Blade. or that peacemaker polearm (that i just saw the 1st time :) )

Nice read though.

[uro]

If you are careful with your build, you can eliminate, or nearly so, the 5% chance to miss. There are items out there to do this, and not give up but .25% chance to crit.

Lionheart Helm +2% to hit and crit
Battleborn Vambraces +1% to hit and crit
Satyr Bow +1% chance to hit
Elven Tarnished Ring +1% chance to hit and +15 agi for .75% chaance to crit

+5% chance to hit and +4.75% chance to crit from this gear.

That would mostly eliminate fear of missing extra attack, and you would not miss abilities at crucial times. I personally think +to hit is underrated. It add better damage over time than crit, but mostly it means never getting caught with your pants down by missing at crucial moments. And with this gear, you do not give up much for it.

The extra attack could still be dodged/parried/ or blocked, but a dodge lights up overpower, a lot of daamge can still go through a block, and a parrry at least generates rage. +% to hit becomes even mroe important with sword spec I think because of this.

Using those items compared to my current gear setup will cost me 700 HP and ~40 attack power. Its a question of preference really, but personally its not worth it.

[Kaylos]

Well, when i originally did looked at these items, it wass to figure out crit and to hit gear that was relatively easy to obtain without raiding MC or other epic level encounters. I am curious as to what 4 items you have in those slots that provide 70 stm and 40 AP.

[Anonymous]

Lionheart helmet is not exactly an item i'd call "easy to obtain"...

[uro]

Well, when i originally did looked at these items, it wass to figure out crit and to hit gear that was relatively easy to obtain without raiding MC or other epic level encounters. I am curious as to what 4 items you have in those slots that provide 70 stm and 40 AP.

My wowrankings profile for my war is in my sig now.

[Kaylos]

I am only counting 54 stm for 540hps, but point is well taken. That is really nice gear. I did not even know about crown of tyranny.

By obtainable two dogs, not easily obtainable, but obtainable without heavy raiding. I can only get on a few hours a day and all day sunday, I cannot raid all day, but i can maybe run one instance or go mining for mats, or grind for cash to buy mats in that time, and try to get most of my raiding done on Sunday. Not exactly easy, but obtainable.

[neurotic]

I expect my guild will be killing him soon and I'll eventually have to make this descision

I have to admire you for your optimism :)

[uro]

I am only counting 54 stm for 540hps, but point is well taken. That is really nice gear. I did not even know about crown of tyranny.


540+160 from the other ring, i counted both of them since the Elven Ring isnt unique.

[WindiaN]

It's hard to say which is superior, to be honest. Yes, executing for 20 rage in PvP is nice, but then again, so is a 6% chance to proc an extra hit that has your weapon's % chance to critical. Axe spec is 5% chance to critical, which usually is quite high in the first place. Every time you get a sword spec proc, you also roll critical chance, so it is possible to crit the hit that procs sword spec AND crit the sword spec hit. Also, the hit generates rage and you can proc sword spec off of Whirlwind, Overpower, Mortal Strike, and Heroic Strike.

Edit: The reason sword vs axe was a non-issue previously is that there never was a sword worthy of mortal strike. Slow with a high top end. Now that we have one available, the superiority of sword spec can actually come into play.

I agree with you on some levels, the sword spec has the highest possible burst damage in the game (I think so until they release a better sword) which is nice, but a 6% chance to proc an extra attack does not mean that everytime it happens your normal attack will crit, ms crit, and sword spec crit.

The constant utility of the axe in pvp far outweighs the potential DPS of the sword spec (not to mention the extra crit chance). The ability to MS your next target almost immediately after you execute your previous target (depending on if you intercept, first attack hits etc.) is pretty much invaluable IMO. Reminds me of an argument I had about dual wielding warriors (although there is not really as clear of a difference), assuming they buff fury and it has a greater DPS than the MS build the utility of MS far outweighs any damage bonus that the fury tree would give you.

[Snake]

want to see how this ugly axe look like....thx

[Sintor]

It's hard to say which is superior, to be honest. Yes, executing for 20 rage in PvP is nice, but then again, so is a 6% chance to proc an extra hit that has your weapon's % chance to critical. Axe spec is 5% chance to critical, which usually is quite high in the first place. Every time you get a sword spec proc, you also roll critical chance, so it is possible to crit the hit that procs sword spec AND crit the sword spec hit. Also, the hit generates rage and you can proc sword spec off of Whirlwind, Overpower, Mortal Strike, and Heroic Strike.

Edit: The reason sword vs axe was a non-issue previously is that there never was a sword worthy of mortal strike. Slow with a high top end. Now that we have one available, the superiority of sword spec can actually come into play.

I agree with you on some levels, the sword spec has the highest possible burst damage in the game (I think so until they release a better sword) which is nice, but a 6% chance to proc an extra attack does not mean that everytime it happens your normal attack will crit, ms crit, and sword spec crit.

The constant utility of the axe in pvp far outweighs the potential DPS of the sword spec (not to mention the extra crit chance). The ability to MS your next target almost immediately after you execute your previous target (depending on if you intercept, first attack hits etc.) is pretty much invaluable IMO. Reminds me of an argument I had about dual wielding warriors (although there is not really as clear of a difference), assuming they buff fury and it has a greater DPS than the MS build the utility of MS far outweighs any damage bonus that the fury tree would give you.

The fury comparison is moot. You can preach about the utility of MS all you want, until you realize that having two warriors negates it when they assist eachother. If, in fact, fury was changed to have superior DPS, you would only want one or two ms warriors in a raid/bg.

Similarly, dual wield isn't comparable due to the extreme miss rate. Your base attack has the same miss rate as the extra sword attack, not to mention the fact that you're adding a mere 4% (taking this sword into consideration) to an already high %. On a consistent basis, you will see a bigger dps increase from the sword spec now that there is a weapon worthy of mortal strike in that spec.

Sure the proc is nice, but ten seconds is also an eternity in group PvP, meaning you will probably get one proc. Similarly, I haven't heard of or had any rage problems in PvP.

[khan3817]

If you are careful with your build, you can eliminate, or nearly so, the 5% chance to miss. There are items out there to do this, and not give up but .25% chance to crit.

Lionheart Helm +2% to hit and crit
Battleborn Vambraces +1% to hit and crit
Satyr Bow +1% chance to hit
Elven Tarnished Ring +1% chance to hit and +15 agi for .75% chaance to crit

+5% chance to hit and +4.75% chance to crit from this gear.

That would mostly eliminate fear of missing extra attack, and you would not miss abilities at crucial times. I personally think +to hit is underrated. It add better damage over time than crit, but mostly it means never getting caught with your pants down by missing at crucial moments. And with this gear, you do not give up much for it.

The extra attack could still be dodged/parried/ or blocked, but a dodge lights up overpower, a lot of daamge can still go through a block, and a parrry at least generates rage. +% to hit becomes even mroe important with sword spec I think because of this.Also, if you are human, which I happen to be, and use an Obsidian Edged Blade, which I happen to use, you get 313 sword skill, +8 from the sword, and +5 from human racial. I can't recall the last time I missed.

[Kaylos]

An awesome axe for sure. I did the math though and there was one weapon that beat it out for single attack damage. The PvP rewards weapon works out to be higher damage in a single attack once you figure in AP gained from weapon bonuses and weapon speed. Not saying its better, and probably as hard to obtain, impossible for most, but that the Grand Marshal/High Warlord only outperform it in one attack for damage.

I'd take the 20 rage for a kill over the str/sta bonus of HW axe anyday.
Execute and still have rage? one Swing on next taget and have enough for a MS again ? Charge next enemy after kill and have 41 rage?

Where do i have to sign up?

Just relooked at this. I won;t argue that the pvp weapons are better than the axe, but it does hit harder and 36 stm is ton. Thats a free 360 HPs for using the weapon. 20 free rage requires you to kill someone first, and with that axe, more than likely you will do that a lot. The HPs help you survive from the get go though and are always there. Even with my poor weapon, I raely have rage problems in PvP, and with any of these weapons, chances are you are going to have quite a bit of rage. Hard to argue thaough when just about any of these weapons would be takers.

[evilution]

not to mention all the times you could execute full health people in PVP and get back 20 rage! god i love bugs :(

[Shoken]

I expect my guild will be killing him soon and I'll eventually have to make this descision

I have to admire you for your optimism :)

He's definately not the hardest boss in MC anymore. Got a sword to drop 2nd kill and I picked it up. Probably gonna regret when the axe drops 6x in a row or somthing.

[Senta]

He's definately not the hardest boss in MC anymore. Got a sword to drop 2nd kill and I picked it up. Probably gonna regret when the axe drops 6x in a row or somthing.

You seen the drop rate recorded for it on alakazam?

Anyway, hows it working out? I used typhoon for a while, it has +20agil on it, so thats +1crit, but what i found is that I jsut couldn't crit enough.

The difference between having your crit at 20% and 25% is HUGE, i retired the typhoon and quickly wet back to the reaper.

Mind you, when swordspoc procced and i was lucky enough to get crits... typhoon wailed, but my crit chance just wasnt high enough and i just wanst hitting hard enough.

Is bonreaver any different?

[Kaylos]

Sword spec adds pretty much the same bonus for something to happen at 20% crit rate as having a 25% crit rate. I think the reason you were not hitting hard enough had more to do with Typhoon's spd than with the crit rate. My Massacre Sword of the Monkey hits harder than typhoon by an average of 20 points of dmage per hit, even though its a 45 dps weapon, only because of its 3.8 spd. You can then imagine the difference with Reaper which is about 67 damage per hit on average. The gap only widens farther the higher your AP is from buffs. The real problem is lack of slow swords other than Obsidian and Bonereaver.

The real tradde off is the extra impale damage crit gets you, but then again, MS, WW, and overpower attaks do not generate rage and a sword spec off of them does. So its a little loss of damage for more rage. Indalamar said on here somewhere that the reason people do not realize this is that you never see "Axe spec gives youo a critical strike." If you were able to track that, you would probably see that Axe spec gave you about as many extra crits as sword spec gave you extra attacks. My experience with it so far is that I am jsut as con sistant as I was with Axe spec and with a sword equivalent to the axe I was using, I am doing pretty much the same damage and hitting just as hard. (I went from Executioner's axe to Massacre Sword of the Monkey, both 3.8 spd, and about same DPS when Executioner's str bonus was factored in)

[Lodekim]

For those asking, Spinal Reaper looks basically like Arcanite Reaper but with a different color scheme.

[Senta]

Well, we have people with both the bonereaver and spinal reaper... could they comment on how it works? :)


The reason I think axe spec is far superior to swordspec is because your adding 5% onto an already high number, making the proc chance greater.

With swordspec your adding a base 6% chance.

What im trying to get at is that a 6% proc will go off far less than a 25+% proc

[uro]

Basically... yes. With axe spec youre stacking crit, personally i have 30% crit in zerker stance without mark, crit stones, or mongoose pots (with just those 3 items id go up to ~38%). So the increased chance of a crit is massive... whereas your chance to proc an extra attack always will be 6%.

[Kaylos]

Looking at the 6% alone, then yes it will go off a lot less. However, you have to look at it with other factors. You nwould still have 20% to crit if yu had 25% to crit with axe. 6% sword chance also insreases your chance of getting a crit. 6% adds 6 attacks for every 100 atttacks for 106 attacks. That increases your chance of getting a crit every 100 attacks to 21.2%. But wait, 6% is actually more than 6% if you include the 6% chance for an extra proc off of the extra attack, which is .36% chance every 100 attacks, meaning 6% could really be considered 6.38% chance for extra attack which also add slightly more to crit percentage.

The difference is that sword spec can seem a little more streaky because these are aall stackable attacks. This means that the attacks could all happen at once, IE a crit and a sword proc, a proc that crits, a crit and a proc that crits, a proc that procs, a proc that procs a crit. That may mean you may see 6 procs in 100 attacks and 21.2 crits, but that 3 of those procs may have come on crits, and where before with axe you may have gotten and extra crit, now you get neither a crit or a sword proc. It actually comes out to 24.8% chance as opposed to 25% for axe of getting at least one of them or any other combination of procs and crits in a single attack. Luckily for me, being Human makes up that .2% chance to crit with 5 extra sword skill. Then again, orcs get another .2% cahnce to crit with axes, meaning they would lose .4% chance to getting a proc or crit in a single attack.

So recapping over 100 attacks

Sword Spec at 20% crit rate is
24.8% cahnce for proc/crit or any combination in a simgle attack (loses on overlap with crit, 20 crits * .06% = 1.2% overlap. 26%-1.2% = 24.8%)
6.36 procs over 100 attacks (bonus .36% from proc on proc, 6 * .6)
21.272 crits over 100 attacks (bonus 1.272% from extra procs, 6.36 * .2 )

Axe spec at 25% crit rate is
25% chance to crit

Sword spec has .2% lower in a single attack, but better burst damage potential. You will have more crits and procs in 100 attacks than axe will have crits. Sword spec loses out on impale bonus for proc crits as opposed to 5% chance for MS, WW, or Overpower to crit with impale. It also seems to lose out on 5% to crit for non-weapon abilites if axe spec applies to those (not sure, I would think not but do not know), as I have yet to see sword spec proc off of non-weapon damage abilities. However, while sword procs on a MS or other waepon ability add less damage than that critting, they add rage allowing you to use more abilities more often.

Given equivalent weapons such as the PvP sword vs the PvP axe, its a toos up in my opinion based on personal preference. However, axes are generally the better weapons when comparing them to the available swords, even when you compare Bonereaver to Spinal Reaper. Come on, 20 rage on a kill. That is hard to top in group PvP.

Again my opinion and if you think my math is all screwed up, you are entitled to that opinion, but my experience with both specs and indentical spd and almost identical damage sword and axe seems about even to me.

[Kaylos]

Basically... yes. With axe spec youre stacking crit, personally i have 30% crit in zerker stance without mark, crit stones, or mongoose pots (with just those 3 items id go up to ~38%). So the increased chance of a crit is massive... whereas your chance to proc an extra attack always will be 6%.

The higher your crit % the more overlap crit% and proc% you should have. At 25% crit with sword spec, you should have a 29.2% chance for at least one of them to happen. However, you gain even more chances of critting on procs meaning your burst damage potential should be even higher with sword spec the higher your crit percentage goes. IE 100 attacks at 25% should average 26.5 crits, but that 1.5 is off a proc. I can see the reasoning in wanting more consistant crits with more impales for damage though. I still think its personal preference, if you are comparing 2 similar sword and axe.

[Asp]

I agree with the last post.

When I was Human-Warrior i was using swords and sword spec, but with Orc or even Troll, I'd take Axe.

And personally I think +5 crit is better.

[Shoken]

He's definately not the hardest boss in MC anymore. Got a sword to drop 2nd kill and I picked it up. Probably gonna regret when the axe drops 6x in a row or somthing.

You seen the drop rate recorded for it on alakazam?

Anyway, hows it working out? I used typhoon for a while, it has +20agil on it, so thats +1crit, but what i found is that I jsut couldn't crit enough.

The difference between having your crit at 20% and 25% is HUGE, i retired the typhoon and quickly wet back to the reaper.

Mind you, when swordspoc procced and i was lucky enough to get crits... typhoon wailed, but my crit chance just wasnt high enough and i just wanst hitting hard enough.

Is bonreaver any different?

I went from reaper to bonereaver and the burst damage potential is MUCH higher with the bonereaver. I dont know if its bugged but the 6% sword spec goes off much more than 6% of the time. I've had 2 sword spec proc's go off on 1 hit. 1 shotted a mage with 3.2k of damage. Log kinda looked like this

You gain an extra attack from Sword Specialization.
You hit mage for 600
You crit mage for 1000.
You gain an extra attack from Sword Specialization.
Your Mortal Strike crits mage for 800.
You crit mage for 800

Those weren't the exact numbers and I didn't have the sense to SS it for some reason. I'll be sure to SS it the next time it happens. I also 1 shotted a mage (at half health) right after this because of a sword spec proc.

The sword is great, but I wish I could have gotten the effect from the axe.

Ah well, my dkp is still pretty high, I could loot the axe as well if I was an asshole, but I think the warriors & shamans in my guild would hate me.