Current Rogue Builds (updated 12/12/04)

[Kintoun]

Update 12/12/04:
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Simply put this update is to say sword rogues leveling faster is a myth. On even con MOBs my ambush crits (65%) take out half their health. Once I start chaining kills with remorseless attacks I crit over 100% of the time on ambushes. My sinis don't do THAT much less damage, only a little less, and dam near nowhere HALF the MOBs health less! Besides, my poison procs more on faster daggers so the gap is even less.

I've played side-by-side with higher level sword rogues and kill the same level MOBs faster. Forget Blade Flurry for PVE. You can't get it until levle 30, but you're gimp with no power until you get leathality at 45. Dagger crit just needs ambush at 22 which takes off half their health around that level. As you get higher level tho your crits start taking off less of a chunk, but then at 37 you get leathality which puts you back in business.

Video Evidence: http://kintoun.nurfed.com/Rouges_have_it_coming.avi 100 bucks says this video makes Blizzard nerf dagger rogues.

So here is my PVE solo leveling build, it doesn't take you to 60 since it really doesn't matter what you take after getting the minimum below.

Solo PVE Build:
The build order I'd suggest is sini, Subtlety to ambush, Assassination to leathality, then finish Combat. This build also flows perfectly into my stealther or dagger crit build. Just ignore the pts into dodge and parry under combat and you're set.

Key Points:
-Ambushes crit 65% of the time and deal 50% more dmg, it should be your main opener. After each kill remorseless will proc giving you 100% chance to crit with ambush.
-10% harder to hit by melee (parry/dodge)
-Sini talent - solo PVE this is bread and butter.


Assassination Talents (20 points)
# Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

# Remorseless Attacks - 5/5 points
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 40% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.

# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

# Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.

# Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.


Combat Talents (12 points)
# Lightning Reflexes - 5/5 points
Increases your Dodge chance by 5%.

# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.

# Deflection - 5/5 points
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.


Subtlety Talents (13 points)
# Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

# Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.

# Improved Ambush - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 40%.

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Update 12/07/04:
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Been experimenting with a new type of build. Guess I'd call it the hybrid build. It's basically the sword combat build below, but uses daggers. Right now I'm really leaning towards using this build.

Hybrid Build
This build attempts to use the best points of all the builds, but sacrifices stealth getting no sublety talents.

Key Points:
-10% harder to hit by melee (parry/dodge) - No matter what the rogue is geared towards, hands down he WILL be getting hit, and this is nice for making up the armor deficiency.
-Blade Flurry
-Seal Fate
-Riposte
-Coldblood
-No Sinister strike talent, you rely purely on Backstab crit (55%)
-0 Stealth talents - Stealth is huge in PVP, but in the higher skilled PVP fights you'll find that stealth is only used at the start of the fight since anyone with half a brain will DoT the sec they see you. All rogues innately have a mini-sap talent anyways (sap + vanish). And the coldblood can be used for ambushes for the quick cloth kills.



Assassination Talents (30 points)
# Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

# Remorseless Attacks - 5/5 points
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 40% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.

# Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.

# Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

# Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.

# Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

# Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.

# Seal Fate - 5/5 points
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.


Combat Talents (21 points)
# Lightning Reflexes - 5/5 points
Increases your Dodge chance by 5%.

# Improved Backstab - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.

# Deflection - 5/5 points
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.

# Precision - 1/5 point
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 1%.

# Riposte - 1/1 point
A strike that becomes active after parrying an opponent's attack. This attack deals 150% weapon damage and disarms the target for 6 seconds.

# Dagger Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to get a critical strike with Daggers by 5%.

# Blade Flurry - 1/1 point
Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 seconds.


Subtlety Talents (0 points)
# None

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I always said once they finalize rogue talents I'd post in-depth explanations for rogue builds. so here they're, my 3 basic builds.

Some General Info:
-All builds are meant for level 60 characters and assume your RAW chance to crit is around 20%. Daggers used are 100 top end dmg and sword is 150 top end dmg.
-It is very easy to get a 20% crit chance while also making a stam build with a rogue. Stam is extremely important for a rogue and their DPS will be very high no matter what.
-The majority of rogues DPS comes from skills, NOT normal hits. This is doubly important for combo points.
-Evis deals less on armored targets, whereas rupture deals full damage to anyone - evis on cloth, early rupture on armored.
-The higher the top end dmg of a weapon, the better it is no matter the DPS - most skills are either % based (% of a higher top end dmg is best) or instant use (free dmg added to weapon dmg, thus higher is better).
-Master of deception cuts the distance in half for being detected, whereas camo increases your speed. For PVE MoD is needed. In PVP speed is needed. The client checks every 5s for a stealth check. Therefor the shorter time you spend in their vision, the better - so speed is it's own form of helping not being detected. Also the faster you can move into position, the faster you can join the fight or scout.
-There are two types of rogues: stealthers and frontlines. Frontlines can take some hits from melee, have great defensive talents (combat tree) and still deal the wicked rogue dmg. These types usually assist the tanks and use swords with sini strike. Stealthers cannot take hits from melee, deal the best burst dmg in the game, and usually are behind enemy lines sapping/killing support units.
-Sap is THE best PVP CC in the game. It is a physical CC which cannot be dispelled. As of currently the only skill which can break sap is a frost mages ice block (bug?).
-The following rogue skills are affected by diminishing returns: gouge, sap, cheapshot, mace talent stun, kidney shot. None of these skills are linked for diminishing returns, so a kidney shot right after a gouge will not suffer from diminishing returns. Diminishing returns has a 15s window which starts after the target is released from the skill. Anytime during that window if you use the same skill it will be affected by diminishing returns. 1st: 100%, 2nd: 50%, 3rd: 25%, 4th: immune.
-Kidney Shot talent is not as good as people think. Kidney Shot lasts 6 secs max, cooldown is 20s, diminshing returns has a 15s window which starts when the target comes out of the stun. 20s cooldown - 6s stun = 14s, wait 1 more sec and your Kidney Shots never get affected by diminishing returns. With the talent the cooldown is less, making multiple Kidney Shots prone to diminishing returns unless you wait 15s (making the talent pointless).
-Vanish - If timed right and done fast enough, even with a DoT on you can vanish and ambush/cheap shot/sap a target. If you have multiple DoTs on however this cannot be done.
-Contrary to what someone may tell you, the rogue cannot take damage well, no matter the talents. Rogues have the best burst DPS in the game starting with stealth. This is why they're best suited for taking out cloth targets at the backlines. Rogues can get there easiest, and kill non-buffed cloth in under 5s if done right.

Dagger using crit build:
This build takes the heart of the rogue and enhances everything about it. The rogue is meant to be pure DPS and this is the HIGEST DPS talent build that the rogue can achieve.

Key Points:
-Highest DPS build
-Ambushes crit 65% of the time and deal 50% more dmg, it should be your main opener
-Backstabs crit 50% of the time and deal 50% more dmg, this is your main damage dealer
-Ambushes deal ~1400 on a crit to cloth
-Backstabs deal ~1000 on a crit to cloth
-All crits give you an extra combo point (seal fate)
-Sacrifice defense talents for higher DPS - rogue no matter what cannot take hits
-Guarenteed crit (coldblood)



Subtlety Mastery
Camouflage - Rank 5/5
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

Opportunity - Rank 5/5
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.

Improved Ambush - Rank 3/3
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 45%.
Subtlety Total: 13

Combat Mastery
Improved Gouge - Rank 3/3
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 secs.

Improved Sinister Strike - Rank 2/2
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5.

Improved Backstab - Rank 3/3
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.
Combat Total: 8

Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate - Rank 3/3
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

Remorseless Attacks - Rank 5/5
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 40% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.

Malice - Rank 5/5
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Ruthlessness - Rank 3/3
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.
Murder - Rank 2/2
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.

Relentless Strikes - Rank 1/1
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

Lethality - Rank 5/5
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.

Cold Blood - Rank 1/1
Instant cast 3 min cooldown
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.

Seal Fate - Rank 5/5
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.
Assassination Total: 30



Sword using frontlines build:
This build usually assists the tank at the frontlines helping to focus fire with great DPS.

Key Points:
-Easier to play, don't have to worry about positioning (backstab)
-8% harder to hit by melee (parry/dodge)
-Reduced damage compared to other builds
-Blade Flurry for increased atk spd and good AE dmg
-All crits give you an extra combo point (seal fate)
-Riposte - Sacrifice 10% offhand dmg for riposte. You can spam this (duration is longer than cooldown!) on any melee attacking you making their hits worthless, important for fighting other frontlines units. Disarming any melee class turns their DPS to 0, think of it as a free 6 sec stun everytime you parry which is 10% of the time you get hit.
-Guarenteed crit (coldblood)
-Can backlines stealth and sap a target then run to assist frontlines, or opener sap/cheapshot someone at frontlines



Combat Mastery
Improved Sinister Strike - Rank 2/2
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5.

Lightning Reflexes - Rank 3/5
Increases your Dodge chance by 3%.

Deflection - Rank 5/5
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.

Precision - Rank 5/5
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.

Riposte - Rank 1/1
10 Energy
Instant cast 5 sec cooldown
5 yd range
A strike that becomes active after parrying an opponent's attack. This attack deals 150% weapon damage and disarms the target for 6 sec.

Dual Wield Specialization - Rank 4/5
Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 40%.

Blade Flurry - Rank 1/1
25 Energy
Instant cast 2 min cooldown
Requires Melee Weapon
Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 sec.
Combat Total: 21

Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate - Rank 3/3
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

Remorseless Attacks - Rank 5/5
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 40% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.

Malice - Rank 5/5
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Ruthlessness - Rank 3/3
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

Murder - Rank 2/2
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.

Relentless Strikes - Rank 1/1
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

Lethality - Rank 5/5
Increases the damage done by your critical strikes by 50% when using the Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability.

Cold Blood - Rank 1/1
Instant cast 3 min cooldown
When activated, your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate is guaranteed a critical strike.

Seal Fate - Rank 5/5
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.
Assassination Total: 30


Stealther rogue:
This build is great for 1v1, but still has high utility for group PVP. This build is identical to the dagger crit build but sacrifices the Seal Fate talent for 9 points in the Subtley Tree - less damage in most situations, but far more utility. This build takes the most skill to play.

Key Points:
-You can sap a target and stay in stealth to ambush another target
-Guarenteed crit (coldblood)
-Preparation resets all timer skills (vanish, blind, coldblood, evasion, sprint, kidney shot, oh my!). If timed right to avoid wasted vanishes, in the ideal group PVP fight you can sap 3 times AND ambush 3 times (stealth, vanish, prep, vanish), coldblood twice, sprint twice, blind twice, and use evasion twice.
-Ambushes crit 65% of the time and deal 50% more dmg, it should be your main opener
-Backstabs crit 50% of the time and deal 50% more dmg, this is your main damage dealer
-Ambushes deal ~1400 on a crit to cloth
-Backstabs deal ~1000 on a crit to cloth
-Rupture - Combo point generation is slower than dagger crit build but you have +30% dmg on rupture. A 5 point rupture deals 1300 to any class reguardless of armor. Spamming low combo point ruptures is key with this build. 3 point ruptures are easy, quick, and deal 800 damage over 14s.



Subtlety Mastery
Camouflage - Rank 5/5
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

Opportunity - Rank 5/5
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.

Initiative - Rank 2/5
Gives you a 30% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.

Improved Ambush - Rank 3/3
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 45%.

Improved Rupture - Rank 3/3
Increases the damage dealt by your Rupture ability by 30%.

Improved Sap - Rank 3/3
Gives you a 90% chance to return to stealth mode after using your Sap ability.

Preparation - Rank 1/1
Instant cast 10 min cooldown
When activated, this ability immediately finishes the cooldown on your other Rogue abilities.
Subtlety Total: 22

Combat Mastery
Improved Gouge - Rank 3/3
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 secs.

Improved Sinister Strike - Rank 2/2
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5.

Improved Backstab - Rank 3/3
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.
Combat Total: 8

Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate - Rank 3/3
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

Remorseless Attacks - Rank 1/5
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 8% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.

Malice - Rank 5/5
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Ruthlessness - Rank 3/3
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

Murder - Rank 2/2
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.

Relentless Strikes - Rank 1/1
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

Lethality - Rank 5/5
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.

Cold Blood - Rank 1/1
Instant cast 3 min cooldown
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.
Assassination Total: 21
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[Guts]

Awesome post, your dagger build, the first one, is the exact same build i'm using save for maybe a point or two.

So you aren't a fan of kidney shot?

[Kintoun]

Awesome post, your dagger build, the first one, is the exact same build i'm using save for maybe a point or two.

So you aren't a fan of kidney shot?
Of course I'm a fan of Kidney Shot, it owns. But the TALENT isn't so hot.

Diminishing Returns explained:
Blizzard didn't like the fact a player could constantly CC another player/MOB indefinatley. So they implemented diminishing returns, Every time you use a CC type skill/spell back-to-back on a player within 15s of each other, the next skill/spell is subject to diminishing returns.

Lets use Kidney Shot as an example:

1st 5pt Kidney Shot: 100% duration, 6secs.
2nd 5pt Kidney Shot 50% duration 3secs (affected by diminishing returns)
3rd 5pt Kidney Shot 25% duration 1.5secs (affected by diminishing returns)
4th 5pt Kidney Shot 0% duration they become immune to this skill

Of course this isn't only 5pt Kidney Shots. If you use a 1sec kidney shot, then a 6 sec, the 6 sec would only be 3sec (50% reduction).

Now the window for when diminishing returns applies is for 15secs. This is 15s AFTER the CC breaks from the target.

So since Kindey Shot duration is 6secs, and it's cooldown is 20secs...

You Kidney Shot.... and after 6 secs they come out..
Now diminishing returns windows starts, lasting 15s
If ANY Kidney Shot is used within this time it will be affected by diminishing returns
Now since you used Kidney Shot 6secs ago, the cooldown has 14secs left and diminishing returns has a 15s window. Meaning if you wait 1 more sec after the cooldown finishes for Kidney Shot, you'll NEVER be affected by diminishing returns, aka a waste of combo points.

Like I said, Kidney Shot is awesome, but the talent doesn't help very much.

[Guts]

So it's like how shadowbane dealth with chain stuns and powerblocks basically. Roger that

[Saffenn]

Nice post, as a Rogue player it really has me thinking on talent builds more carefully..

What's your opinion on Adrenaline Rush? If I understand the skill right it doubles the number of energy you regen each tick (from 20 or 40) basicly giving you a SS every 1.5 seconds.

Are the extra combo points from SS crits/cold blood crit evis worth giving that up?

And I was debating with myself if Improved Dodge was actually worth it, Hunters should be a rather easy melee kill, and you can't dodge their ranged attacks. Warriors have Overpower where extra dodge may actually hurt then it helps, which leaves us with other Rogues.. Are those points worth fighting other Rogues when it hurts us vs Warriors?

My original talent plan was:

Assassination Talents (15 points)

# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

# Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

# Ruthlessness - 2/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 40% chance to add a combo point to your target.

# Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your critical strikes by 50% when using the Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage abilitiy.



Combat Talents (31 points)

# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.

# Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 seconds.

# Precision - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.

# Deflection - 5/5 points
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.

# Riposte - 1/1 point
A strike that becomes active after parrying an opponent's attack. This attack deals 150% weapon damage and disarms the target for 6 seconds.

# Dual Wield Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 50%.

# Blade Flurry - 1/1 point
Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 seconds.

# Sword Specialization - 5/5 points
Gives you a 6% chance to get an extra attack after dealing damage with your Sword.

# Aggression - 3/3 points
Increases the damage of your Sinister Strike and Ambush abilities by ?.

# Adrenaline Rush - 1/1 point
Increases your Energy regeneration rate by 100% for 15 seconds.



Subtlety Talents (5 points)

# Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

I gain Camo, Adren Rush, Aggression, Sword Spec, 1 point of DW, Improved Gouge.

I lose Cold Blood, Seal Fate, Murder, 1 point of Ruthlessness, Remoreless and Improved Dodge

I know Adren Rush doesn't have the longest duration in the world, but it's guaranteed fast combo points where Seal Fate has a chance of not working at all. :?

Of course, I don't actually have experience with either talent in game being relatively new, so I'd like opinions of more experienced players.

[Kintoun]

Even if adren triples your DPS for 15s, it has a 6min cooldown. And thats the ONLY thing you have going for you in your build other than blade flurry. There are far better talent combos to be had.

Not to mention as soon as someone sees you use adren, they'll CC you and watch as you wasted your 6min timer.

I'm just not the fan of adren, too costly putting points into other talents to get it which don't help as much elsewhere.

[fer]

Thankz for giving me an insight in how rogues work, and also for explaining the diminishing returns. Really appreciate it.

[Ghetto]

Looks good, I like the sec0nd spec the best, however won't almost all high-end melee players have the "Weapon Chain - Immune Disarm" enchantment on their weapons, making riptose worthless?

[PaJaMa]

from my experiences in open beta sofar daggers are sucking it up compared to having a sword/mace in the mainhand.. I'm still wondering which i want to go with for release, it is a hard choice

[PaJaMa]

With the sword build do you think remorseless is better then getting imp S&D and something else? I'll have to try it in this OB

[Kintoun]

With the sword build do you think remorseless is better then getting imp S&D and something else? I'll have to try it in this OB
First off daggers own any type of damage output swords can do. This has little to do with daggers DPS as much as it has to do with ambush and backstab being so godly. I used to use swords, I've been there.

Slice and Dice is a waste. Rogue damage is skill based, NOT normal hits based. Combo points, sinis, BS's, stealth moves, these are dealing 60+% of the damage you deal. This number is even higher with daggers since your skills deal so much more damage.

There is a larger sword selection right now, but it won't stay like that for long.

[Saffenn]

Even if adren triples your DPS for 15s, it has a 6min cooldown. And thats the ONLY thing you have going for you in your build other than blade flurry. There are far better talent combos to be had.

Not to mention as soon as someone sees you use adren, they'll CC you and watch as you wasted your 6min timer.

I'm just not the fan of adren, too costly putting points into other talents to get it which don't help as much elsewhere.

Okay, that's basicly what I wanted to know, Thanks. =]

And any comments about what I said about lightning reflexes/dodge?

[ro_forums]

Hey I was mainly thinking about going for a assassination dagger build but dumping seal fate 5 and murder 2 for parry 5, riposte and ghostly strikes. Seal Fate 5 is an excellent skill and it's hard to give up since it's very useful but riposte seems like a much more useful pvp tool, seeing as how 6 seconds of disarm + 150% damage on parry be much more powerful than an extra comba point? Is it really?

[Ralrra]

Hey I was mainly thinking about going for a assassination dagger build but dumping seal fate 5 and murder 2 for parry 5, riposte and ghostly strikes. Seal Fate 5 is an excellent skill and it's hard to give up since it's very useful but riposte seems like a much more useful pvp tool, seeing as how 6 seconds of disarm + 150% damage on parry be much more powerful than an extra comba point? Is it really?

If you're going for an assassination build the goal is to kill the thing before you have a chance to parry. It's designed to target cloth wearers in PvP, who chances are won't be meleeing you much anyways. Reaching that 5-point eviscerate in 3 strikes as opposed to 5 is a huge difference.

[ro_forums]

Well, my original premise was to go for an all-around build so I wouldn't be restricted to purely assassinating. By adding parry/riposte I was under the impression I would be able to 1v1 melee at a decent level. I went for the assassination tree despite trying to go all-around because I find the skills you get in there are pretty amazing.

[Real]

Dual Wield Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 50%

Isnt that somthing important needed?

[Ralrra]

It sounds excellent on paper Real, but for a rogue your damage comes from skills, not your base hits.

Now someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't SS/Backstab/Ambush/etc. damage based solely off your main hand weapon?

[Real]

Ahh ic how could i be so dumb X_X

[Kenjuro]

Do you have to get the killing blow for remorseless attacks to work?

Pardon my noobness (may or may not be in fact a word).

[PaJaMa]

So Kintoun is going to be going with the backstab build? i'm guessing... Where's Thaloc and Stabface.. Must have a debate... from my experiences.. level 22 now.. daggers haven't been good.. especially against players that just run away.. but this is low level pvp and i don't have all of the essentials to make daggers amazing.. I hope i can get to 50 before release so i can test both daggers and swords and find out which i prefer

[Kasake]

Assassination Talents (11 points)

Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Remorseless Attacks - 2/5 points
Gives you a 40% damage bonus on your next attack after killing an opponent.

Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.



Combat Talents (24 points)

Lightning Reflexes - 5/5 points
Increases your Dodge chance by 5%.

Deflection - 5/5 points
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.

Precision - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.

Riposte - 1/1 point
A strike that becomes active after parrying an opponent's attack. This attack deals 150% weapon damage and disarms the target for 6 seconds.

Dual Wield Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 50%.

Improved Kick - 2/2 points
Gives your Kick ability a 100% chance to silence the target for 2 seconds.

Blade Flurry - 1/1 point
Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 seconds.



Subtlety Talents (16 points)

Master of Deception - 5/5 points
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 4)

Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

Rapid Concealment - 5/5 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Stealth ability by 5 seconds.

Ghostly Strike - 1/1 point
A strike that deals 125% weapon damage and increases your chance to dodge by 15% for 7 seconds. Awards 1 combo point.





Discuss. I have yet to find a better rogue build.

[HeychP]

I would put my talents everywhere that has to do with stealth but mainly in ambush, i jsut wanna take out casters with ambush+backstab then run back and come again for another one, thats the role of a rogue...beeing a bitch and making 1hit or 2hit KOs.

[PaJaMa]

what about a dagger build without seal fate like Rombus's ?



Assassination Talents (21 points)

Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

Remorseless Attacks - 5/5 points
Gives you a 100% damage bonus on your next attack after killing an opponent.

Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.

Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your critical strikes by 50% when using the Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage abilitiy.

Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate is guaranteed a critical strike.

Combat Talents (8 points)

Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 seconds.

Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.

Improved Backstab - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.

Subtlety Talents (22 points)

Master of Deception - 5/5 points
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 4)

Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.

Improved Ambush - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 40%.

Initiative - 4/5 points
Gives you a 60% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.

[Kintoun]

what about a dagger build without seal fate like Rombus's ?


*snip*
Read the thread

This is identical to my 3rd build except he places his pts diff in the sub tree. He's psycho to not get preparation and sap in that build tho.


Now someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't SS/Backstab/Ambush/etc. damage based solely off your main hand weapon?
tru

Do you have to get the killing blow for remorseless attacks to work?

yes you must, same as other "killing blow" talents on priest, war, etc.

[Kintoun]

Discuss. I have yet to find a better rogue build.
O.o

[Jumai]

Finally someone else who gets it! I can't count the number of mathematical sermons I've given in the beta rogue forums trying to drill the basics of rogue building into people who just refuse to admit that numbers never lie.

Especially when I tell people to put their life force dirk in their main hand and their dire nail in their offhand. They go ballistic.

I am Kella and I approve this message.

[beerz101]

whats would be best profession for a pvp rogue maybe engineering if so what type when u have to decide when it comes time to?

[ro_forums]

How does the stealther build do in PvP? The spec(with a couple of minor modifications) is probably going to be my build come retail. It sounds good on paper but do any high level rogues who use this build (or something similar) have any comments to say on it regarding their performance in pvp (solo and group). PvE experciences would be cool to know, too, since I am aiming for an all-around rogue, after all.

[PaJaMa]

I've been looking what i want to do in PvP... and I've come up with a build I like but I don't see anyone using it.. Tell me what you think. I want to use swords but I am not really too big of a fan for a lot the combat line has to offer, so i went with some sub instead.


Assassination Talents (31 points)

Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Remorseless Attacks - 5/5 points
Gives you a 100% damage bonus on your next attack after killing an opponent.

Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

Relentless Strikes - 1/1 points
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.

Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your critical strikes by 50% when using the Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage abilitiy.

Cold Blood - 1/1 points
When activated, your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate is guaranteed a critical strike.

Seal Fate - 5/5 points
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.

Vigor - 1/1 points
Increases your maximum Energy by 10.



Combat Talents (2 points)

Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.



Subtlety Talents (18 points)

Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

Elusiveness - 5/5 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Evasion, Vanish, and Blind abilities by 1.3 minutes.

Initiative - 5/5 points
Gives you a 75% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.

Improved Sap - 3/3 points
Adds a 90% chance to return to stealth mode after using your Sap ability.

do not know if MoD or Elusiveness would be better at this point.

[Kintoun]

whats would be best profession for a pvp rogue maybe engineering if so what type when u have to decide when it comes time to?
If you have a guild backing you, just gather (mining/herbing/skinning). Otherwise, engineering and alchemy are top. Engy for useful items and bombs and selling spare ore for cash. Alch because potions are god in PVP. HUGE agi pots, healing pots, resistance pots, absorb pots, etc.

Personally I'm going Herb and Skinning, then once I cap out, engineering and herbing.

...I've come up with a build I like but I don't see anyone using it.. Tell me what you think...

*snip*
Not bad. It works for a rogue who wants to make use of sap talent and still be a good sword build. Elusive > MoD. Elusive is great, it's like a mini preparation since is lowers the cooldown on Vanish so much.

[Real]

Subtlety Mastery
Camouflage - Rank 5/5
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

Opportunity - Rank 5/5
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.

Improved Ambush - Rank 3/3
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 45%.
Subtlety Total: 13

Combat Mastery
Improved Gouge - Rank 3/3
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 secs.

Improved Sinister Strike - Rank 2/2
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5.

Improved Backstab - Rank 3/3
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.
Combat Total: 8

Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate - Rank 3/3
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

Remorseless Attacks - Rank 5/5
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 40% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.

Malice - Rank 5/5
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Ruthlessness - Rank 3/3
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.
Murder - Rank 2/2
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.

Relentless Strikes - Rank 1/1
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

Lethality - Rank 5/5
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.

Cold Blood - Rank 1/1
Instant cast 3 min cooldown
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.

Seal Fate - Rank 5/5
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.
Assassination Total: 30

-5 Seal Fate and +2 Improve Garrote +3 Improve Sap, Discuss.

[Kintoun]

-5 Seal Fate and +2 Improve Garrote +3 Improve Sap, Discuss.
Close to build #3, it works. But if I'm gonna drop seal fate I'd much rather pickup preparation. BTW garrote is useless.

[Real]

Has there been any changes to build #1

[Jekal]

heres mine, dagger user



Combat Talents (8 points)

Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Improved Backstab - 3/3 points

Assassination Talents (31 points)

Malice - 5/5 points
Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Lethality - 5/5 points
Improved Kidney Shot - 2/3 points
Improved Instant Poisons - 5/5 points
Cold Blood - 1/1 point
Seal Fate - 5/5 points
Vigor - 1/1 point

Subtlety Talents (12 points)

Master of Deception - 1/5 points
Camouflage - 4/5 points
Opportunity - 5/5 points
Improved Ambush - 2/3 points

[beerz101]

so what would u pick for it mining/eng or herb/alc or go eng/alc?

[Jekal]

im a mining/eng man myself

[Ralrra]

eng/alch would get real expensive real fast. You'd have to buy all your herbs, and all your stuff for engineering (bars, gems, leather, etc.)

[Palmen]

Remorseless Attacks - Rank 5/5
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 40% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.


why?

Do you slay a low lvl mob befor you go to raid and betwen every kill or is this only a 5 point filler so you can use talents further down the tree?

[ro_forums]

Assassination Talents (30 points)

# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
# Malice - 5/5 points
# Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
# Murder - 2/2 points
# Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
# Lethality - 5/5 points
# Vile Poisons - 5/5 points
# Cold Blood - 1/1 point
# Seal Fate - 5/5 points

Combat Talents (0 points)
xx

Subtlety Talents (21 points)
# Camouflage - 5/5 points
# Elusiveness - 5/5 points
# Initiative - 5/5 points
# Improved Sap - 3/3 points
# Improved Rupture - 2/3 points
# Preparation - 1/1 point

----
Going for a very efficient 1v1 pvp and group pvp build. I am willing to sacrifice some pve power to be better at pvp, but I want to be gimped, either. Seeing as how this build doesn't have opportunity 5 nor does it have the combat tree -- logic being that I don't want to invest too much points in skills that are only openers (ambush), and I think backstab is really only useful for people that are distracted in group pvp. In that case I rather open with cheap shot, lay down some sin strikes and rupture/evisc (cold blood if applicable) depending on the AC of the target. --
In 1v1 I don't think I'd lose out on damage too much seeing as how I can open with either cheapshot or ambush (with decent damage), possibly get an extra combo point (initiative), sin strike away, then either cold blood evisc (use prep if needed) or rupture (improved rupture talent!) against high AC.
And let's not forget the utility of preperation in group pvp, allowing you to use evasion, sprint, vanish, coldblood, etc. twice!

Basically the premise of this build is taking the standard assassination building, switching remorseless strikes (useless in pvp) to vile poison, dumping the combat tree, dumping opportunity/imp ambush, and using those points in elusiveness (cooldown on pvp skills), initiative (cheapshot + ambush combo points!), sap (awesome skill), some improve rupture (finisher for high AC), and preperation (a generally very useful skill in pvp)

Now all this sounds good on paper to me but I didn't have the time to test it out in game, so I was wondering if any experienced rogues have any comments? Remember, I am willing to sacrifice to some pve ability (without gimping myself, of course) for better pvp/battlegrounds/group pvp intentions.

[Real]

How does Herbalism and Alchemy sounds?, Input please.

[rjah]

Remorseless Attacks - Rank 5/5
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 40% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.


why?

Do you slay a low lvl mob befor you go to raid and betwen every kill or is this only a 5 point filler so you can use talents further down the tree?

This is my question also. Does killing a player within 5 levels of you (the exp range of mobs I believe) give you the benefit of this talent, or did you take it as filler for later ones? (PVE benefit)

[Terant]

Assassination Talents (30 points)

# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
# Malice - 5/5 points
# Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
# Murder - 2/2 points
# Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
# Lethality - 5/5 points
# Vile Poisons - 5/5 points
# Cold Blood - 1/1 point
# Seal Fate - 5/5 points

Combat Talents (0 points)
xx

Subtlety Talents (21 points)
# Camouflage - 5/5 points
# Elusiveness - 5/5 points
# Initiative - 5/5 points
# Improved Sap - 3/3 points
# Improved Rupture - 2/3 points
# Preparation - 1/1 point

----
Going for a very efficient 1v1 pvp and group pvp build. I am willing to sacrifice some pve power to be better at pvp, but I want to be gimped, either. Seeing as how this build doesn't have opportunity 5 nor does it have the combat tree -- logic being that I don't want to invest too much points in skills that are only openers (ambush), and I think backstab is really only useful for people that are distracted in group pvp. In that case I rather open with cheap shot, lay down some sin strikes and rupture/evisc (cold blood if applicable) depending on the AC of the target. --
In 1v1 I don't think I'd lose out on damage too much seeing as how I can open with either cheapshot or ambush (with decent damage), possibly get an extra combo point (initiative), sin strike away, then either cold blood evisc (use prep if needed) or rupture (improved rupture talent!) against high AC.
And let's not forget the utility of preperation in group pvp, allowing you to use evasion, sprint, vanish, coldblood, etc. twice!

Basically the premise of this build is taking the standard assassination building, switching remorseless strikes (useless in pvp) to vile poison, dumping the combat tree, dumping opportunity/imp ambush, and using those points in elusiveness (cooldown on pvp skills), initiative (cheapshot + ambush combo points!), sap (awesome skill), some improve rupture (finisher for high AC), and preperation (a generally very useful skill in pvp)

Now all this sounds good on paper to me but I didn't have the time to test it out in game, so I was wondering if any experienced rogues have any comments? Remember, I am willing to sacrifice to some pve ability (without gimping myself, of course) for better pvp/battlegrounds/group pvp intentions.

Very interested in hearing responses to this build... Looks interesting just wondering if the suffering backstab and ambush would make this not so good or not...

[warfix]

Assassination Talents (17 points)

# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
# Malice - 5/5 points
# Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
# Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
# Lethality - 5/5 points

Combat Talents (34 points)

# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
# Lightning Reflexes - 5/5 points
# Deflection - 5/5 points
# Precision - 5/5 points
# Riposte - 1/1 point
# Improved Evasion - 2/2 points
# Dual Wield Specialization - 5/5 points
# Blade Flurry - 1/1 point
# Sword Specialization - 5/5 points
# Aggression - 3/3 points

I tried most of it with a lvl 46 rogue, seemed okay for me, discuss...

[Adinion]

I couldn't really find anything in these posts, but what is the best pve soloing build. I just would like to know which has the least amount of downtime, and is still descent in pvp.

[Kintoun]

Does killing a player within 5 levels of you (the exp range of mobs I believe) give you the benefit of this talent, or did you take it as filler for later ones? (PVE benefit)
A level 60 can kill a level 1 player and he'll get the remorseless attacks buff. Considering the DPS of a rogue, you'll be getting this buff a lot in PVP - it's easy to get the last hit. Plus in build 1 and 2 you need to burn points somewhere to get seal fate, and I believe this is the best choice.

Assassination Talents (30 points)

# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
# Malice - 5/5 points
# Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
# Murder - 2/2 points
# Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
# Lethality - 5/5 points
# Vile Poisons - 5/5 points
# Cold Blood - 1/1 point
# Seal Fate - 5/5 points

Combat Talents (0 points)
xx

Subtlety Talents (21 points)
# Camouflage - 5/5 points
# Elusiveness - 5/5 points
# Initiative - 5/5 points
# Improved Sap - 3/3 points
# Improved Rupture - 2/3 points
# Preparation - 1/1 point

This is a great 1v1 build. It was actually the first build I ever made. I cheap shotted everything and kidney shotted everything. You can keep someone stunned near indefinately using this. Stealth, cheap shot, attack, vanish cheap shot, kidney shot, attack, etc etc. However the biggest problem was that it is more geared for 1v1 PVP. Stuns = you take less dmg, but you cannot deal as much dmg. The longer you take to "assassinate" someone, the better chance that player has of being healed or assisted by someone else. Sadly, non-crit ambushes are worthless so you would be using cheap shot for every opener.

Also the argument can be made that using high crit ambushes from multiple vanishes is better than cheap shots in 1v1 PVP and group PVP. Multiple cheap shots suffer from diminshing returns, ambushes do not. An ambush crit deals 1400 dmg which cannot be achieved during a 6sec stun of cheap shot. But the usefulness of a stun in general is very high - that target cannot attack back or move.

This isn't to say this build isn't viable, actually it's a great build for assisting. Open with cheap shot for 3 pts, 1 sini and end with 4pt (or 5) kidney shot. For focus firing, that player is going nowhere. On backlines however this will get you killed - other healer/nukers have plenty of time to react and lay you down fast.

The difference of this build over the ones I listed is in the opener using Cheap Shot. Considering I'm not a fan of cheap shot given 65% crit ambushes dealing 1400, the other builds have more to offer (in my opinion) AND they can still be a stun whore using cheap shot and kidney shot. I feel my other builds flow together better. You get seal fate, but don't take advanage of dagger crits (backstab/ambush). You plan on relying on sini, but cannot afford the sini talent.

Sorry for the in-depth analysis, but ppl showed interest in wanting feedback so I poured my brain out for em.

[HeychP]

what exactly would be a great kind of ambush-vanish-ambush-run away-stealth-one hit KO build?

i was thinking more like:

Assassination: 15

remorseless attacks: 5
malice: 5
lethality: 5

Subtlety:22

Camouflage: 5
Opportunity: 5
Improved Ambush: 3
Initiative: 5
Improved Vanish: 3
Preparation: 1

Combat: 22

Improved SS: 2
Improved Gouge: 3
Improved backstab: 3
Precision: 4
Improved Sprint: 3
Improved kick: 2
Dagger spec: 5

[Saradin]

Kin,

Couple questions or actually for anyone that might want to answer. I wanted to know how good Blade Fury is. It looks great on paper but how practical and useful is it ingame. The reason I ask is b/c I am thinking of using a variation of build 2 but instead of getting blade fury I wanted to put points into Camo to get around faster. Also, if you are going to put 30 points into assassination why not use 1 more and get vigor? What would you rather have, 10 more max energy or 1 more % to dodge in the combat tree?

Assassination Talents ( 31 up to vigor )
Combat Talents ( 15 up to riposte )
Subtlety Talents ( 5 into Camouflage )

[Terant]

Sorry for the in-depth analysis, but ppl showed interest in wanting feedback so I poured my brain out for em.

PPPttthhtptpp!

What do you think we post for if not your in depth analysis!

Thanks for response!

[Ghrym]

Which do you think is the most viable PvE talent spec out of the ones you provided?

Having not played a rogue to a decent level there are skills I haven't attained and wouldn't know the practicality of. While i'm sure playstyle obviously has a great deal to do with the leveling process, Talent specs can only enhance it.

On first glance, the combat spec seemed to be the most obvious choice for a PvE build because of the lack of stealth dependancy. However, the fact that rogues can't take much damage anyway seems to suggest taking a build that does a lot of damage quick.

This is not a, "Should I use sword, mace or dagger?" question, it's a practicality question. It's a, "What doesn't it make sense to use?" question. It's a question I'd be interested to hear feedback on and if you have time to do so, please do.

[ro_forums]

Does killing a player within 5 levels of you (the exp range of mobs I believe)
[quote=ro_forums]Assassination Talents (30 points)

# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
# Malice - 5/5 points
# Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
# Murder - 2/2 points
# Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
# Lethality - 5/5 points
# Vile Poisons - 5/5 points
# Cold Blood - 1/1 point
# Seal Fate - 5/5 points

Combat Talents (0 points)
xx

Subtlety Talents (21 points)
# Camouflage - 5/5 points
# Elusiveness - 5/5 points
# Initiative - 5/5 points
# Improved Sap - 3/3 points
# Improved Rupture - 2/3 points
# Preparation - 1/1 point

This is a great 1v1 build. It was actually the first build I ever made. I cheap shotted everything and kidney shotted everything. You can keep someone stunned near indefinately using this. Stealth, cheap shot, attack, vanish cheap shot, kidney shot, attack, etc etc. However the biggest problem was that it is more geared for 1v1 PVP. Stuns = you take less dmg, but you cannot deal as much dmg. The longer you take to "assassinate" someone, the better chance that player has of being healed or assisted by someone else. Sadly, non-crit ambushes are worthless so you would be using cheap shot for every opener.

Also the argument can be made that using high crit ambushes from multiple vanishes is better than cheap shots in 1v1 PVP and group PVP. Multiple cheap shots suffer from diminshing returns, ambushes do not. An ambush crit deals 1400 dmg which cannot be achieved during a 6sec stun of cheap shot. But the usefulness of a stun in general is very high - that target cannot attack back or move.

This isn't to say this build isn't viable, actually it's a great build for assisting. Open with cheap shot for 3 pts, 1 sini and end with 4pt (or 5) kidney shot. For focus firing, that player is going nowhere. On backlines however this will get you killed - other healer/nukers have plenty of time to react and lay you down fast.

The difference of this build over the ones I listed is in the opener using Cheap Shot. Considering I'm not a fan of cheap shot given 65% crit ambushes dealing 1400, the other builds have more to offer (in my opinion) AND they can still be a stun whore using cheap shot and kidney shot. I feel my other builds flow together better. You get seal fate, but don't take advanage of dagger crits (backstab/ambush). You plan on relying on sini, but cannot afford the sini talent.

Sorry for the in-depth analysis, but ppl showed interest in wanting feedback so I poured my brain out for em.
Hmm, interesting points. You are right about the fact that it take enough advantage of seal fate. I really thought having seal fate/prep would be damn good regardless of other talents dumped because of it. Hmm.. in your opinion, what would be the most efficient pvp build? I don't really like the standard assassination/backstab build because everybody is doing it, and I find the subtlety skills really useful. Combat build's strong point is pve. Your stealther build seems ideal for my need but lacking seal fate gives me some doubts about it's effectiveness. =( What would you suggest for a person that mainly wants to pvp (screw pve effectiveness, can sacrifice it for pvp) and likes a build that takes skill to play?

[Kissyface]

haven't played a rogue since phase 2, so does seal fate stack with initiative?

[Nydoz]

I think im going to be using the "Stealther Rogue" set up for retail, looks awsome. Can I get feedback from anyone thet uses that or something similiar to it? thx.

[Kintoun]

...instead of getting blade fury I wanted to put points into Camo to get around faster... What would you rather have, 10 more max energy or 1 more % to dodge in the combat tree?
I'm pretty biased against Blade Flurry might want to get someone else opinion on it. But when you can get 2 targets side by side and not moving, it's sweeeeeet. Otherwise the 20% speed alone is kinda nice.

Given the choice for 1 dodge and vigor I'd get vigor. That talent is dam near worhtless for a end-of-tree talent. The only time you should have full energy is when you use an opener. So if you're playing to your best, you'll only get 1 use out of vigor every fight. Now if Vigor added to energy regen instead.... I'd make totally diff builds just for that.

Which do you think is the most viable PvE talent spec out of the ones you provided?... combat spec?...However, the fact that rogues can't take much damage anyway seems to suggest taking a build that does a lot of damage quick.
Build #2 is the best build for this. Adds is common and you rape them with blade flurry. Plus the 10% from parry and dodge is GREAT for PVE. Most mobs are melee and this helps a ton aganst them. In PVP this is near worthless since most dmg you're taking is from spells. I'm not going to go in-depth for a PVE build since thats a whole diff area than PVP, but things you should get are... riposte, parry, dodge, ghostly strike, elusivness, longer evasion duration, blade flurry. You'd be a soloing god.

Hmm.. in your opinion, what would be the most efficient pvp build? I don't really like the standard assassination/backstab build because everybody is doing it, and I find the subtlety skills really useful. Combat build's strong point is pve. Your stealther build seems ideal for my need but lacking seal fate gives me some doubts about it's effectiveness. =( What would you suggest for a person that mainly wants to pvp (screw pve effectiveness, can sacrifice it for pvp) and likes a build that takes skill to play?
You want dmg but don't want to backstab? Can't help you there =/.
Take build #1 or #3. I can't decide personally which is best =/. For ONLY DPS, I think build #1 is the way to go. But for utility and dmg build #3 is best. Right now I'm leaning towards build #3.

haven't played a rogue since phase 2, so does seal fate stack with initiative?
Yes.

[beerz101]

yea im trying to pick what one would be good for pvping its hard to pick from the daggers one or the stealth one

[Tuka]

What is a Rogue's main purpose in PvPing at 5v5 and zerg raids?. I was also wondering if Rogues are a good/fun class to make, like is it worth the time to make a Rogue?

[Renton]

this isnt an answer, just a noob question-

-whats CC?

[ro_forums]

this isnt an answer, just a noob question-

-whats CC?
Crowd control.

Kintoun: Hmm, well I am not biased against backstab (the skill), I just find the assassination build (build #1, commonly referred to as the "backstab" build) is kind of lacking in terms of utility, as you said. Seems redundant to play. I guess I'll go with 3. Thanks for your opinion, helped me clear up some doubts.

[embryodead]

O great Nurfed, please advise:

My rogue build for release is much like the #1 dagger build posted here. However, I have some concerns resulting from the differences:

Improved Gouge - isn't 4 seconds perfectly enough for anything? the only benefit I see is 1 more tick of energy regeneration before a backstab (so 2/3 Improved Gouge should be enough?) - is this the reason? and is it better than spending points on Improved Dodge?

Vigor - that's how I planned to spend my last talent point, sacrificing Rank 3 of Improved Ambush. So it's +10% Ambush crit vs +10 Energy. I cannot really figure which is better, I don't have any experience with it being only ST/OB player.

Remorseless Attacks - the new descriptions includes "an opponent that yields experience". Someone already stated in this thread that this works in PvP... however is this really valid for the current patch? It surely used to work (earlier it was just "an opponent") earlier, but I want to be sure it works after the change has been made, so that I don't end up with something totally useless in PvP and not so good in PvE either.

Sadly my character planning is more screwed up by "Rambo" alliance male models, but that's another story :?

[Terant]

Hey Kintoun,

I am planning on going dwarf/rogue in release *can't resist the alliance lands, way better and more polish* and I am liking their racial to cacel a dot.

My question is this, if my racial cuts me down to 70% movement speed, should I maybe invest in improved vanish? What limitations do you see for 70% movement, do you think it is a viabl option in PvP or is movement rate a kill me now button?

Thanks
T

[sneaky_gnome]

Hi, what do you think of this build? A little bit different version of #3, just go to subt deeper instead of combat.





Class: Rogue
Level: 60



Assassination Talents (25 points)


Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.


Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.


Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.


Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.


Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.


Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.


Improved Instant Poison - 5/5 points
Increases the chance to apply Instant Poison to your target by 10%.


Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.




Combat Talents (0 points)


None


Subtlety Talents (26 points)


Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.


Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.


Initiative - 5/5 points
Gives you a 75% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.


Improved Ambush - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 40%.


Improved Sap - 3/3 points
Adds a 90% chance to return to stealth mode after using your Sap ability.


Improved Rupture - 3/3 points
Increases the damage of dealt by your Rupture ability by 30%.


Preparation - 1/1 point
When activated, this ability immediately finishes the cooldown on your other Rogue abilities.


Hemorrhage - 1/1 point
An instant strike that damages the opponent and causes the target to hermorrhage, increasing any Physical damage dealt to the target by up to 3. Lasts 30 charges or 15 seconds. Awards 1 combo point.


can this be any good? o_O[/quote]

[Kintoun]

Improved Gouge - isn't 4 seconds perfectly enough for anything ... and is it better than spending points on Improved Dodge?

Vigor - that's how I planned to spend my last talent point, sacrificing Rank 3 of Improved Ambush. So it's +10% Ambush crit vs +10 Energy.

Remorseless Attacks - the new descriptions includes "an opponent that yields experience". Someone already stated in this thread that this works in PvP...
Gouge vs Dodge, your choice, I can't decide either.

Read a previous post for my thoughts on Vigor

Yes this is current implementation for remorseless attacks.

My question is this, if my racial cuts me down to 70% movement speed, should I maybe invest in improved vanish?
Planning on vanishing while having stoneform on? Whats the point? It shouldn't get rid of speed debuff from stoneform, and noone uses it simply for a "speed boost".

I don't see much use for stoneform as a rogue. Much more geared towards other classes. They can just back away from you and wave as they move out of your attack range for 20s. Rogue has 0 ranged attacks.

[Kintoun]

OK I'm done "reviewing" builds :cry: , based on everything in this thread so far other people should be able to make conclusions and generalizations. They can post and help out. If I see something else that might not have been covered in this thread I'll comment on it tho.

[Terant]

I know kintoun is done reviewing but maybe you other rogues could give insight....

My question is how bad is it to give up the improved gouge and 30% greater chance to crit on backstabe... I would be able to get seal of fate and prep then... Would still have imrpved SS, I think the main thing that worried me is -30% to crit on backstage... thats almost a 1 in 3 loss of crit =(

[sneaky_gnome]

hey where did my long post go? :( damn...

[Coldfire]

Hi there everyone. I, uhh, don't really know any of you, but I got a link to this thread over on the IGN WoW forums, and I'd like to get an opinion on this build I'm thinking of using. Lot of great info in this thread, thanks to everyone for that.

I'm going to assume you know what all the talents do, being as how you have so much experience, and save space by taking out the descriptions. Any critiques are much appreciated.

Assassination Talents (23 points)

Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Malice - 5/5 points
Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Lethality - 5/5 points
Improved Instant Poison - 5/5 points
Cold Blood - 1/1 point


Combat Talents (2 points)

Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points


Subtlety Talents (26 points)

Master of Deception - 5/5 points
Camouflage - 5/5 points
Elusiveness - 5/5 points
Initiative - 5/5 points
Improved Sap - 3/3 points
Improved Cheap Shot - 1/2 point
Preparation - 1/1 point
Hemorrhage - 1/1 point

[werewolv]

is build #3 really worth the points for preparation ? having a 10 min cooldown is sumthing not really nice , say u have entered a raid , killed , used prep , and died , u respawn and wanna join back the battle , u couldnt use prep... so .. was wondering if its really worth it..

[Coldfire]

I believe the answer is yes, werewolv. Even without Prep you can still dish out a good deal of damage. Being able to use it doesn't make you unbeatable, and not being able to use it doesn't make you worthless.

[Erashican]

Noone has yet to ever talk about the viability of Fist specced meele rogues in any credible post I have ever seen. So I figured I'd give it a shot and ask since this is the build I would like to go. At the very least I'd like to know if it's completly a waste of time or worth a try.

I want to make a rogue who is more of the light fighter and doesn't have to rely on being stealthed or using daggers. If it's ok I am going to post my 2 tempplates and if possibile could you give me some constructive advice and any info on which one would be better for me.

Thank you in advance. If not it was worth a try I have been trying to find out this information since before open beta started just didn;t know where to ask.

Build 1 mostly combat with ad rush.

Assassination Talents (12 points)

# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

# Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

# Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

# Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

Combat Talents (34 points)

# Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 seconds.

# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.

# Lightning Reflexes - 3/5 points
Increases your Dodge chance by 3%.

# Deflection - 5/5 points
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.

# Precision - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.

# Riposte - 1/1 point
A strike that becomes active after parrying an opponent's attack. This attack deals 150% weapon damage and disarms the target for 6 seconds.

# Dual Wield Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 50%.

# Fist Weapon Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to get a critical strike with Fist Weapons by 5%.

# Blade Flurry - 1/1 point
Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 seconds.

# Aggression - 3/3 points
Increases the damage of your Sinister Strike and Eviscerate abilities by 6%.

# Adrenaline Rush - 1/1 point
Increases your Energy regeneration rate by 100% for 15 seconds.

Subtlety Talents (5 points)

# Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Build 2 combat with cold blood.

I am really torn about this build, if I'm going light tank route I would like to have blade flurry and riposte, however I debating on if I should drop anything to get some levels of camoflague. I don't know what I could do without since I understand that I will need to rely on my meele abilities. Here is build.

Assassination Talents (21 points)

# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

# Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

# Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

# Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

# Lethality - 3/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 18%.

# Improved Instant Poison - 5/5 points
Increases the chance to apply Instant Poison to your target by 10%.

# Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.

Combat Talents (30 points)

# Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 seconds.

# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.

# Lightning Reflexes - 3/5 points
Increases your Dodge chance by 3%.

# Deflection - 5/5 points
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.

# Precision - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.

# Riposte - 1/1 point
A strike that becomes active after parrying an opponent's attack. This attack deals 150% weapon damage and disarms the target for 6 seconds.

# Dual Wield Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 50%.

# Fist Weapon Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to get a critical strike with Fist Weapons by 5%.

# Blade Flurry - 1/1 point
Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 seconds.

Subtlety Talents (0 points)

# None

I made a warrior to almost 40 and was allowed to play some lvl 60's in closed PvP so I know enough about the game to realize that I will be purly troop support, and will be around to assist the warriors and pump dmg in the front line. I'm not trying to kid myself, every good army needs cannon fodder.

Thanks, Erashican

[SoleSteeler]

My question is... is it 'viable' to go for a more pve oriented build (like #2) from 1-60 and then simply respec then for pvp? or will 'missing out' on the pvp that you do in 1-59 be kinda not worth it?

Hmm :)

[.Sphinx]

Hi
I am playing mostly PvP. My Rogue shall be a Dagger Rogue.
So if I use daggers i should use Backstab and Ambush, other wise sword would be better.
To use backstab u need to set 3 points into imp backstab, otherwise it would be kinde useless
First my build:

Assassination Talents (21 points)

Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Malice - 5/5 points
Murder - 2/2 points
Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Relentless Strikes - 1/1 points
Lethality - 5/5 points
Remorseless Attacks - 1/5 points
Cold Blood - 1/1 points

Combat Talents (8 points)

Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
Improved Backstab - 3/3 points


Subtlety Talents (22 points)

Master of Deception - 5/5 points
Camouflage - 5/5 points
Opportunity - 5/5 points
Improved Ambush - 3/3 points
Improved Sap - 3/3 points
Preparation - 1/1 points


I got all the good skills in the assassination and in the subtlety tree and imp backstab in the combat tree.
The only thing I dont like is that i dont have 5 points to put into initiative.
But Initiative only adds 1 combopoint for ambush not for backstab...
And Seal of Fate costs to many points to get.
The good thing is I keept Imp Sab which is really nice and preparation.
Coz I want to be master of stealth i would really hate to lose points in Camo and MOD. (ill play NE ).
With this build I can still use cheap shot or ambush and make very much dam.
The only weakness of this build is that i generate combopoints slower then other rogues, but i make high dam Ambush and Backstabs and still can get of from time to time a eviscerate.
I still can use Cheap shot to open if I want
So tell me what u think about this build.


My next build is a Dagger Rogue to.(I know i am into daggers)
Normally we use Cheap shot to open but we can use a cold blooded ambush too (against cloth armor).

Assassination Talents (21 points)

Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Malice - 5/5 points
Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Relentless Strikes - 1/1 points
Murder - 2/2 points
Lethality - 5/5 points
Improved Instant Poison - 1/5 points
Cold Blood - 1/1 points


Combat Talents (3 points)

Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Improved Gouge - 1/3 points



Subtlety Talents (27 points)

Master of Deception - 5/5 points
Camouflage - 5/5 points
Elusiveness - 5/5 points
Initiative - 5/5 points
Preparation - 1/1 points
Improved Cheap Shot - 2/2 points
Improved Sap - 3/3 points
Hemorrhage - 1/1 points


We get CP very fast.
The only thing I dont like is that i dont have points to put into Opportunity.
Maybe I can drop the 5 points out of Elusiveness to Opportunity but it seam like a bad deal.
! What I hate at this build is the fact that i only do serious dam with an cold blood eviscerate. And per battle i only got 2 cold bloods....
Thats why i like the 1. build more.
And the fact that i can use daggers without feeling guilty.

Thx Sphinx

PS: Sorry for my bad english skills

[Drifter Zero]

How would you do your talent progession as you were leveling from 10 to 60? Not looking for an exact level by level breakdown, but a general direction would help. I'm not very sure on what the level progression is like at the 50-60 range. This is for builds three and one. For build three, I was thinking that starting with the Combat tree and knocking that out of the way early, the moving into Assassination and finishing that off, and moving into the Subtlety tree last where your other abilities are more focused towards the high end game. For build one, I was thinking that building and finishing Assassination tree first is most important because combo point building is bread and butter. After which, moving onto the others, but not really sure where to go as backstab is important and so is Ambush.


On another note, do all rogues have the same base energy regeneration rate? Or is it based on a specific stat? What is the energy regeneration rate (my personal observations are about 20 energy every 1.5 seconds or 35-40 energry a 'tick')?

[beerz101]

what one u think is better for pvp stealth or daggers? thanks for any replys

[Be0wolF]

Kintoun what do u think of this build? i have tested it to lvl 20 in one OB, and i killed everbody on the same lvl as i was, and 1 mage that was 10+ lvl's above me!

Its a SS/mace build.
This is my tack; first 2 SS, slice and dice, Blade flurry, Andrenalin, SS until 5 combo Evis if cloth, Rupture if Mail/plate.
(instant poison)


Assassination Talents (20 points)

Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Improved Slice and Dice - 2/3 points
Increases the duration of your Slice and Dice ability by 30%.

Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.

Improved Instant Poison - 5/5 points
Increases the chance to apply Instant Poison to your target by 10%.

Combat Talents (31 points)

Lightning Reflexes - 3/5 points
Increases your Dodge chance by 3%.

Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.

Precision - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.

Deflection - 5/5 points
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.

Riposte - 1/1 point
A strike that becomes active after parrying an opponent's attack. This attack deals 150% weapon damage and disarms the target for 6 seconds.

Dual Wield Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 50%.

Mace Specialization - 5/5 points
Gives you a 6% chance to stun your target for 3 seconds with a mace.

Blade Flurry - 1/1 point
Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 seconds.

Aggression - 3/3 points
Increases the damage of your Sinister Strike and Eviscerate abilities by 6%.

Adrenaline Rush - 1/1 point
Increases your Energy regeneration rate by 100% for 15 seconds.

Subtlety Talents (0 points)

None


Please say what i have to change :)

[ro_forums]

deleted.

[undie]

It would be nice to know how that second build (first post. . .) does in pvp.

If i'm correct it does alot worse than the "Dagger using crit build" and the stealth one..

it would also be nice to know how you get such a crit rate :o

[ro_forums]

It would be nice to know how that second build (first post. . .) does in pvp.

If i'm correct it does alot worse than the "Dagger using crit build" and the stealth one..

it would also be nice to know how you get such a crit rate :o
Yeah, I'd like to know how it does in pvp, too. Assassination/Stealth will always be the "pvp trees," but combat seems to be fun. Does it have any potential in pvp?

[undie]

It would be nice to know how that second build (first post. . .) does in pvp.

If i'm correct it does alot worse than the "Dagger using crit build" and the stealth one..

it would also be nice to know how you get such a crit rate :o
Yeah, I'd like to know how it does in pvp, too. Assassination/Stealth will always be the "pvp trees," but combat seems to be fun. Does it have any potential in pvp?


I'm lvl 24 rogue right now and it owns in pvp : ) but i guess thats cause almost every rogue i've met is an idiot and doesn't even use his abilities......

anyho, if you wanna go pvp, take stealth ...

to level fast, use combat and switch to stealth later on :)


i'd still like to know how you get that 20% crit tho :=S :)

[ro_forums]

It would be nice to know how that second build (first post. . .) does in pvp.

If i'm correct it does alot worse than the "Dagger using crit build" and the stealth one..

it would also be nice to know how you get such a crit rate :o
Yeah, I'd like to know how it does in pvp, too. Assassination/Stealth will always be the "pvp trees," but combat seems to be fun. Does it have any potential in pvp?


I'm lvl 24 rogue right now and it owns in pvp : ) but i guess thats cause almost every rogue i've met is an idiot and doesn't even use his abilities......

anyho, if you wanna go pvp, take stealth ...

to level fast, use combat and switch to stealth later on :)


i'd still like to know how you get that 20% crit tho :=S :)
Cool.
Right now I'm gearing for a sword assassination/stealth build. Dumping BS/Ambush and getting other skills with it (rupture, etc.)

[shor]

Great read Kintoun, easily one of more well written rogue templates I've come across :P

Will be sure to update here on how well the templates work out for me on BlackRock.

[PaJaMa]

I'm going with 30\8\13. What are you rolling with kintoun?

[Kinnear]

shor u groupie :P long time no see

[Kintoun]

I'm going with 30\8\13. What are you rolling with kintoun?
Right now I'm dagger crit. I kill cloth my lev in two hits and I chased off a 47 mage (he had mount I didn't, only needed 1 more hit on him too) when I was 42 and HE jumped me.

I gave up on fighting soloers, it's no fun since I haven't lost yet (STV is crazy). So now I only target duo groups, for which I'm about 50/50 win/losses on. The largest achievement I've done so far was killing a even con pally war duo that jumped ME. That or the group of 2 rogues, 1 druid, 1 war I killed that was low 30's when I was 40.

Needless to say, best PVP build until hitting 60 is dagger crit straight up. With 5 leathality my ambushes crit over half the time for 1000. Thats half someones health my level.

(sry for the ego pumping, just showing how powerful this build is for my lev)

[UFTimmy]

This may be a dumb question, as I haven't played a Rogue very high.

But why not play your new hybrid build with swords for spamming of SS and just macro switch to a dagger when you need to backstab or ambush?

[Kintoun]

This may be a dumb question, as I haven't played a Rogue very high.

But why not play your new hybrid build with swords for spamming of SS and just macro switch to a dagger when you need to backstab or ambush?
Because you should always be backstabbing not sinister striking in the hybrid build. It's very easy to backstab in PVP, ESPECIALLY in group PVP. But even solo PVP you just circle and walk thru your target spamming backstab til it hits. I rarely have a full energy bar waiting for me to backstab. And if I do I simply gouge->backstab which should be used 24/7 in solo PVP.

[UFTimmy]

This may be a dumb question, as I haven't played a Rogue very high.

But why not play your new hybrid build with swords for spamming of SS and just macro switch to a dagger when you need to backstab or ambush?
Because you should always be backstabbing not sinister striking in the hybrid build. It's very easy to backstab in PVP, ESPECIALLY in group PVP. But even solo PVP you just circle and walk thru your target spamming backstab til it hits. I rarely have a full energy bar waiting for me to backstab. And if I do I simply gouge->backstab which should be used 24/7 in solo PVP.

Thanks! As you can tell, I haven't done any real PvP.

[kenoki]

But even solo PVP you just circle and walk thru your target spamming backstab til it hits.

Unless your target is just...walking backwards.

[arch]

Update 12/12/04:
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Simply put this update is to say sword rogues leveling faster is a myth. On even con MOBs my ambush crits (65%) take out half their health. My sinis don't do THAT much less damage, only a little less, and dam near nowhere HALF the MOBs health less! Besides, my poison procs more on faster daggers so the gap is even less.

I've played side-by-side with higher level sword rogues and kill the same level MOBs faster. Forget Blade Flurry for PVE. You can't get it until levle 30, but you're gimp with no power until you get leathality at 45. Dagger crit just needs ambush at 22 which takes off half their health around that level. As you get higher level tho your crits start taking off less of a chunk, but then at 37 you get leathality which puts you back in business.

So here is my PVE solo leveling build, it doesn't take you to 60 since it really doesn't matter what you take after getting the minimum below.


Have you considered the time it takes for you to get in position for your ambush?

[Sintor]

Update 12/12/04:
Snip


Have you considered the time it takes for you to get in position for your ambush?

Or adds, unlucky stealth detections, and availability of quality swords vs daggers?

Just wondering. It would be interesting to see the numbers from a two hour test. Reset XP per session, grind two hours of daggers as normal. Reset again and do two hours of swords on the same mobs, being sure to bf every time it comes up.

Could also be the case that the recovery time of not getting hit for the ambushed amount of health makes up for the downtime involved in straight up combat. Who knows!

[Kintoun]

Have you considered the time it takes for you to get in position for your ambush?
Takes under a second. The agro range on lower level MOBs is less. Swords rogues don't have camo, so it's about the same - they still need to cheapshot. When you really need it you can distract also. When I'm really lazy I'll just cheap shot -> backstab. My backstabs still crit for 700 compared to my 1000 ambushes. But ideally I'd rather ambush.

wow I can't believe so many ppl doubt without first hand experience. Remoresless + 65% ambush = 100%+ crit rate on all ambushes. With leathality it takes off half their health, how can swords possibly beat this? I'm making a video since a picture is worth a thousand words, just gotta get my hands on the full version of FRAPS.


But even solo PVP you just circle and walk thru your target spamming backstab til it hits.

Unless your target is just...walking backwards.
Thats what gouge is for. Not to mention moving backwars < moving fowards.

[Jekal]

jump and spin, jump and spin

[kenoki]

I've tried both style and the major annoying thing i found in dagger spe was the downtime you have using gouge, even more when you got an add on you!

[Veiv]

Hello, new to the board :)

I have been trying out the Hybrid build thus far. My 45 Rogue kills mobs pretty fast with seal of fate at 5/5. I can get a full 6combo in a matter of seconds with remorse and evis for 800-1100 damage when I crit.

Also in PvP, using cheap shot allows me to build up combo points fast and Coldblood > Evis for the kill.

My main concerns with this build, however, are the lack of stealth talents. Without Master of Decept at 5/5 other players can see me very easily. When I am trying to sneak up and sap a duo allaince group, I tend to get seen more than not.

I was wondering if i should drop something in the combat tree (blade of furry?) and get MoD to 5/5.

I have 30 assas (up to seal of fate)/5 combat (dodge) right now.

Another question that has been bugging me is Backstab. In pvp, it seems i never have enough energy to use this consistently. How do you maintain enough energy to use this skill proficiently?

Any advice would be appreciated :)

thanks

[Miragul]

If you want to keep Flurry then I would drop a few points out of Dodge and transfer them to MoD. One to two percent of Dodge isn't going to make that much of a difference. Personally, I don't plan on putting anything in Dodge. With our relatively weak AC we're going to get pounded anyhow.

No matter the situation (other than lengthy PvP battles) you will usually have evasion up anyhow. Five percent of extra chance to dodge isn't going to make that much of a difference. I would rather put the points into skills that add combo points or some other talent that will help to drop the target as quickly as possible.

Due to the delay on stealth checks I believe Camo to be a better choice over MoD, however, I plan to put a few points in each (most likely 3 Camo 2 MoD).

Something to keep in mind when coming up with your talent build...the shorter the fight, the better chance we have of coming out on top.




Have you considered the time it takes for you to get in position for your ambush?

With the use of distract how is this even an issue?

As a Rogue, knowing that you have a hefty epic mount cost looking you in the face, why wouldn't you be using distract and pickpocket before attacking? It's a big advantage for us even though some people see it as nickel and dimeing.

Both Swashbuckler and Assassin type Rogues (used to describe non-dagger and dagger variations) almost always stealth up to a target to either CS or Ambush. I don't understand how positioning would make that big of a difference. Besides, most Assassin type Rogues will usually have more Camo so they move faster stealthed. Perhaps they are the ones who level faster :wink:

Nevertheless, it's a moot point in my mind. I'm not too worried about who levels faster. It's all about PvP efficiency (i.e. wtfpwning your opponent). I think that's what most of us here are striving for.

[Miragul]

Edited above (feel free to delete this)

[arch]

If you want to keep Flurry then I would drop a few points out of Dodge and transfer them to MoD. One to two percent of Dodge isn't going to make that much of a difference. Personally, I don't plan on putting anything in Dodge. With our relatively weak AC we're going to get pounded anyhow.

No matter the situation (other than lengthy PvP battles) you will usually have evasion up anyhow. Five percent of extra chance to dodge isn't going to make that much of a difference. I would rather put the points into skills that add combo points or some other talent that will help to drop the target as quickly as possible.

Due to the delay on stealth checks I believe Camo to be a better choice over MoD, however, I plan to put a few points in each (most likely 3 Camo 2 MoD).

Something to keep in mind when coming up with your talent build...the shorter the fight, the better chance we have of coming out on top.




Have you considered the time it takes for you to get in position for your ambush?

With the use of distract how is this even an issue?

As a Rogue, knowing that you have a hefty epic mount cost looking you in the face, why wouldn't you be using distract and pickpocket before attacking? It's a big advantage for us even though some people see it as nickel and dimeing.

Both Swashbuckler and Assassin type Rogues (used to describe non-dagger and dagger variations) almost always stealth up to a target to either CS or Ambush. I don't understand how positioning would make that big of a difference. Besides, most Assassin type Rogues will usually have more Camo so they move faster stealthed. Perhaps they are the ones who level faster :wink:

Nevertheless, it's a moot point in my mind. I'm not too worried about who levels faster. It's all about PvP efficiency (i.e. wtfpwning your opponent). I think that's what most of us here are striving for.

I don't think you understand my question.

I meant that if you are a Sword/Mace Rogue who doesn't stealth, and just whack them to death with SS then it does make a difference. Because stealthing behind a target takes time. If you are a Sword/Mace Rogue then you will just pull them with your knives and that doesn't take any time.

[Kintoun]

Pictures are worth a thousands words. This should QUICKLY put any swords vs dagger argument to rest for PVE:

http://kintoun.nurfed.com/Rouges_have_it_coming.avi

Lev 48 killing lev 44-46 yetis. And I was doing this long before 48, only recently made the vid.

[Miragul]

I don't think you understand my question.

I meant that if you are a Sword/Mace Rogue who doesn't stealth, and just whack them to death with SS then it does make a difference. Because stealthing behind a target takes time. If you are a Sword/Mace Rogue then you will just pull them with your knives and that doesn't take any time.

I understood what you meant. My point was that most Rogues are already using distract and stealth to pickpocket behind the target anyway. That's what I do anyhow.

I do agree that non-humanoid killing might take a little longer in some situations, but even so I will always go daggers over non-daggers if I have access to decent ones. The only reason I use sword/mace at this time is because I haven't found a good dagger in a while.

My thoughts aren't meant to be demeaning to sword/mace users. I just think, as Rogues, we are able to take advantage of our more damaging skills with daggers equipped. After playing three different high level Rogues, I just don't see the damage of S&D with CS equaling that of Ambush and BS with the occasional Gouge. Non-positional in PvP is nice though.

[Ratama]

I just don't see the damage of S&D with CS equaling that of Ambush and BS with the occasional Gouge.

I really hope no one is using S&D. I really really do. It hurts me when I see it mentioned.

[Donkeys]

I have to disagree with Kintoun's thoughts on daggers vs sword/mace build. After watching the video with my co-workers and comparing his kill speed to that of my character I would argue that I kill things just as fast and take less damage in doing so with maces. This is with CS opener, 3 SS and a 5 pt Evis finisher. Perhaps things change drastically between level 31 and 48 :\ I think both builds work well and have their advantages/disadvantages. I can keep things stun locked and daggers can frontload a lot of damage quickly. The only time he killed significantly faster was after the big crits he got on the yeti that he sprinted to. I'm basing this off of killing level 29 - 31 at level 31. Again, things may change a lot between now and 48 so I'll just have to wait and see.

[Ratama]

I have to disagree with Kintoun's thoughts on daggers vs sword/mace build. After watching the video with my co-workers and comparing his kill speed to that of my character I would argue that I kill things just as fast and take less damage in doing so with maces. This is with CS opener, 3 SS and a 5 pt Evis finisher. Perhaps things change drastically between level 31 and 48 :\ I think both builds work well and have their advantages/disadvantages. I can keep things stun locked and daggers can frontload a lot of damage quickly. The only time he killed significantly faster was after the big crits he got on the yeti that he sprinted to. I'm basing this off of killing level 29 - 31 at level 31. Again, things may change a lot between now and 48 so I'll just have to wait and see.

Things do change a bit towards that leve, but I haven't seen an incredible amount of change yet.

I think Kintoun's video proves that the Dagger spec can be nearly as effective Sword/Mace for PvE, but I do not think it's superior.

I do think you are wasting energy and time with Cheap Shot though. Combo points are nice, but I think it's better to have the damage up front even if you take an extra hit for it.

At 41 now, I have spent the last 4 levels figthing the same monsters because they are so ideal, but they are now 3-5 levels below me. But with Remorsless and Seal Fate, and a Sword/Mace build my fights often go:

1. 350 Crit Sini (> 50% chance with Remoresless) - 3 combo points with seal fate (Bug?)
2. a. 150 Sini (4 Comb0) or
b. 350 Crit Sini (5 Combo) (20% chance)
3. a. If 2a. Sini (5 Combo)
b. If 2b. Eviscerate (dead MOB)
4. If 2a. Eviscerate (dead MOB)

That is for 180 exp kills at 41

I kill 6-10 between bandages, about 15 seconds per MOB (including travel time).

[Rahvn]

I keep on getting the feeling that remorseless attacks will be removed for PvP.... Its the whole on things that give exp thing.

Anyways my question is Kintoun; Would you take remorseless attacks first or lethality?

[SirSmoKe]

http://kintoun.nurfed.com/Rouges_have_it_coming.avi

Lev 48 killing lev 44-46 yetis. And I was doing this long before 48, only recently made the vid.

would you mind telling us which daggers you used in the vid ?

.. and somehow this reminds me of indals warrior video :)

Greetz SirSmoke

[Kintoun]

http://kintoun.nurfed.com/Rouges_have_it_coming.avi

Lev 48 killing lev 44-46 yetis. And I was doing this long before 48, only recently made the vid.

would you mind telling us which daggers you used in the vid ?

.. and somehow this reminds me of indals warrior video :)

Greetz SirSmoke
widowmaker, it's world loot. Off hand is some random green dagger.

[Miragul]

I keep on getting the feeling that remorseless attacks will be removed for PvP.... Its the whole on things that give exp thing.

Anyways my question is Kintoun; Would you take remorseless attacks first or lethality?

No question, Lethality. Remorseless only gives the specified crit damage percentage increase on the next attack and you have to get the kill shot in PvP for it to activate. More often than not a Rogue will end up with the kill shot due to pure damage, but Lethality is a passive talent which makes it more useful in my opinion.

I don't see Remorseless being nerfed any further and I definitely don't expect them to get rid of it. It's not nearly as powerful as it once was. Most Rogues won't even use it unless they need to put a point or two in just to get to something more important deeper in Assassination.


widowaker, it's world loot. Off hand is some random green dagger.

Slight typo. He meant Widowmaker just in case you're trying to look it up in Thott.

[partoN]

Very nice indeed!
I've decided to try the "Daggers using crit build"... But can i somehow add "Master of Deception"? I don't know what to remove

[Straem]

Uhm thats what 8 kills with no downtime:(

[Kintoun]

Uhm thats what 8 kills with no downtime:(
in the video at least. I can easily go 14+ usually. If a rogue had enough bandages and didn't try to conserve them as much (I eat food as I loot/pick it) man who knows how long he could go.

[Ratama]

Uhm thats what 8 kills with no downtime:(
in the video at least. I can easily go 14+ usually. If a rogue had enough bandages and didn't try to conserve them as much (I eat food as I loot/pick it) man who knows how long he could go.

The worst part is, I still gain cloth (typically very quickly), even using heavy bandages exclusively as a means of healing.

[Straem]

I wish I was a rogue! I love my priest, but I kill like 3 or 4 mobs MAX and I have downtime.

[Ratama]

I wish I was a rogue! I love my priest, but I kill like 3 or 4 mobs MAX and I have downtime.

Yeah, but the trade-off is everyone likes Priests. Us Rogues are at your mercy when it comes to groups.

Are you using a Shadow Spec for leveling? My next char to level is a Priest and I was planning on going full Shadow until the 50s most likely.

[Nynedee]

I was using this leveling technique before seeing this movie and reading your build, but I decided to respec to yours to try it out and the lethality really makes a huge difference for the ambush damage. That and the +15% to eviscerate damage that I didn't have yet. Hopefully they wont nerf because of this though. It really only works WELL against mobs equal to your level or a few below with no armor. Try and do this against mobs with armor and you won't zip through the mobs like you did with those yetis.

[voodoochile78]

That video was truly awesome. I've been using cheapshot as an opener and I have been loving it and kicking but at PvP, but that video.... leaves me speechless...

Some questions though. Following the video you lay out some builds. I notice that many of them are built around ambush as an opener, but backstab as the major move after that. But in the video you don't use backstab once...

The crit rates and damage on backstab are nice, but I find that relying on gouge (+waiting for energy and whatever is left on the 10 second cooldown for the next gouge) makes backstab not so idea for maximizing your DPS.

I notice that you seem to be using sinister strike in the video, instead of backstab. You're dropping mobs extremely quickly, so it doesn't look like backstab is needed at all.

So what do you think, should the ideal build be some combination of ambush + sinister strike + eviscerate? Based on that video, it looks like it may be.

VC

[Nynedee]

Problem with backstab for PvE is you do need to use gouge to get behind the mob. PvP is different. Players do not auto follow you so you don't have to rely on gouge to backstab. He wanted to kill the mobs as fast as possible. If he used gouge then had to wait to regen some mana, it wouldn't be as fast as just using ss like you saw him do in the movie.

[voodoochile78]

One other observation I just had now that I think about it... Relying on remorsless attacks basically forces you not to loot or skin (if you were a skinner).

So what do you do about loot? Do you kill like 10 things in a row and then go back and loot them?

VC

[Nynedee]

Remorseless lasts for 20 seconds. I was grinding earlier and I almost always had time to loot then go to the next mob. I guess it depends on what camp you are at and how close the mobs are to eachother. But even with out Remorseless you still have 65% to crit with ambush.

[Kintoun]

Don't forget all the builds save for one are PVP only builds. The PVE build is only meant to get you to 60 faster so you can enjoy high lvel PVP sooner =).

I have skinning also, and depending on what I'm killing I have just about the time needed to skin/pickpocket and loot. If not then I skip the looting, I can always loot/skin later while waiting for respawn

[ro_forums]

How does seal fate/flurry fare in pvp? I've been really liking this build from the theoretical standpoint so far (feels comfy, to me, to have imp.gouge, seal fate, flurry, precision, parry, etc.) but am not high level enough to test it out fully, nor do I want to spend lots of money respeccing seeing as how respec cost is exponential (does the cost have a cap?)

I'm really torn between sealfate/flurry and a sword cold blood/cheapshot/prep build I made for myself. Seems to me that Kintoun raised a good point saying that in any large scale PvP you'll have a DOT on you thus rendering most of the subtlety tree useless. But then again if you do manage to get stealth the subtlety tree offers some really good talents..
I kind of feel there's a catch 22 in my choices because I can't make full of stealth with DOTs on me, but rogue (with leather armor) cannot take a lot of hits on frontlines (unless somebody thinks otherwise?)

I'm really confused on which build to pick, but for a start, knowing if sealfate/flurry is efficient/wanted in pvp (I already feel the fun factor is great on that one, no need to question that) would set me on a track.

[Miragul]

Flurry is a bad choice for PvP. It's really not a great one for PvE either. I have messed around with Flurry minus Seal Fate, but I can tell you that Flurry is not worth it in either instance. The obvious problem with Flurry in PvP is you won't be able to get multiple alliance close enough for the talent to hit more than one of them at once. Sure, it's easily doable in PvE but chances are you are going to draw aggro and if evasion isn't up or you're drawing aggro on elites...well you're pretty much toast.

Even when soloing on weak ac mobs that Rogues can mow down (like the ones in Kintoun's video on this thread) Flurry really doesn't help in lessening downtime. I tested Flurry while taking on three level 48-49 furbolgs when I was 51 and I hardly had any life after the last one died. I could have gone through five in the time it took me to get started again.

I highly recommend an assassination/subtlety build if you want the best of both worlds (damage and stealthiness). Going for a heavy combat build will basically turn you into a paper warrior. You won't last long in any PvP like that. I've tested both sides and my opinion is that ass/sub builds are better for Rogues.

Oh, and Kintoun...stop being a wuss. Those no-ac havin yetis didn't do anything to you. Pick on something with some balls like an Anvilrage Solider 8)

[arch]

Removed a stupid question that i figured out after thinking a while :o.

[wodin]

One rather random question regarding talent distribution - is Improved Sap a necessity for later instances? Obviously, you're not really going to have problems finding groups regardless if you have it or not, but I've been hearing other people claim that it's more orless mandatory to survive in places like UBRS.

What's the story there?

[Genjo]

umm ya not all of us have that godly dagger most of us are stuck with a green dagger or a coldrage if were lucky through the 40s and swords/maces are a bit easier to come by :(

[SandDemon]

Wanted to thank you for the post, friend pointed me here and I decided to respec at level 38 and try this out in Kurzen. I went a little different (which I'll explain in a second), but I must say - Wow. Huge difference.

At 38 (no progression since respec) I decided to go the subtley line (camo/opp/improved-amb), and up the assasination line. No improved SS. Why? Well, I wanted lethality and everything so I'd have a topnotch "BLAM" build. At level 39 now (getting roughly 20k/hour in Kurzen), dealing about 750-800 an ambush and killing roughly 2-3 at a time sometimes. It's quite nice, I'm beginning to like remorselessnes or whatever it is. Although I did want to ask a few questions about how you're leveling.

Are you fighting the elite/witch or the shadowhunter/subcommander guys? The elite/witches are only 34-35 so I decided to move up to the level 38 guys. It hasn't become that much a problem, because my only real problem is how closely the mobs are in Kurzen. It's usually hard to get one by itself - sometimes I'm forced to sap one and fight 1-2, or just try and take two at once. When you head down into the cave, do you push forward to the Commander or do you push back towards that other named one? Do you stick to the elites and find it still profitable?

Also I plan on going the pure DPS build (seal of fate, ambush/backstab) and was wondering a few things. Why get gouge over the dodge talent? I guess if you're soloing you'd need it, but higher up I doubt you solo much anymore. Also why not lose one talent in something for coldblood?

And finally before I finish my post, what area was that video done in and what level were you? I noticed the mobs were green, so I'm just curious - is fighting green mobs that worth it compared to yellows? That's a nice area though it looks like, since they're spread out enough though - Kurzen can be crazy full of mobs. Also, that place has a respawn timer like none other.

[Kintoun]

Gouge vs Dodge is one of those 'choose what you like' things. They both have their usefulness so go for whatever you want.

[Lustt]

Kintoun, where was that video shot and what lvl were you/the mobs ?

thanks.

[hellion]

yeti cave in zone west of 1000 needles.

those mobs are like 42-44 iirc.

[vlad]

Kintoun, I hate you.

No oki I dont but this sux. :)
This thread forces me to go Rogue for retail (EU)
And now I have to reroll/forcegrind and do alot of Rogue practice (being that my only rogue exp is around 30:ish in US CB) so I can take advantage of this kickass post and advices.

Seriously, amazingly great work!
You will prolly have me leaving my long loved shammy for a dual dagger wielding scum.

/vlad

[UFTimmy]

The changes to bandages really sucks. It was nice being a melee class that could heal itself relatively quickly.

[abnormal]

Hi everyone, I would like some critique about this build I'm considering..


Assassination Talents (21 points)

# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

# Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

# Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

# Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.

# Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.

# Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

# Vile Poisons - 1/5 point
Increases the damage dealt by your poisons by 3%.

# Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.



Combat Talents (8 points)

# Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 seconds.

# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.

# Improved Backstab - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.



Subtlety Talents (22 points)

# Master of Deception - 5/5 points
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 4)

# Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

# Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.

# Initiative - 3/5 points
Gives you a 45% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.

# Improved Sap - 3/3 points
Adds a 90% chance to return to stealth mode after using your Sap ability.

# Preparation - 1/1 point
When activated, this ability immediately finishes the cooldown on your other Rogue abilities.

- While my main focus is PvP, I'm also going to do some grouping and instances quite a bit also, so I'm a bit concerned about those, so I would like opinions on how this build works in Solo PvE/Group PvE/Solo PvP/Group PvP
- The second build I was thinking of is one with 30/8/13..

Thanks in advance!

[Miragul]

Looks fine, but if you want to put a few points somewhere else you could easily lose a few in MoD. If you have 5 in Camo I wouldn't put any more than a few points in MoD. Just my opinion though.

Three points in Imp Sap isn't absolutely necessary either. I go back to stealth almost every time with just two in it.

[coke]

Haha, I wish I'd of saw this or known about the "Orc Rogue 6 combat points from Ghostly Strike(and the 4 pt Hem bug)" before I grinded to 60 the hard way. (Actually around 50 it got easy, because I had two fist weaps, and weant dodge, improved slice and dice, imp poisons..) now I need to hit the 55-60 instnaces and gear out.. this PvE shit doesn't cut it anymore. :(

[Rob]

Hey i was looking at these forums and watched the video and found ambush/backstab could be really strong. i got a build myself i plan on using two maces or a sword and mace (whatever has more dps at the time)
PvP build?
Which build of yours would you recommend for someone that likes grouping.. i wants to be able to kill stuff fast in instances/groups and doesnt want to be a push over in pvp? im not sure if this build will cut it so give me ur advice please im not sure if thats possible :) (which build do you recommend for 60 pvp)

Assassination Talents (31 points)

# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

# Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

# Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

# Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.

# Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

# Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.

# Improved Instant Poison - 5/5 points
Increases the chance to apply Instant Poison to your target by 10%.

# Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.

# Seal Fate - 5/5 points
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.

# Vigor - 1/1 point
Increases your maximum Energy by 10.



Combat Talents (4 points)

# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.

# Improved Gouge - 2/3 points
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1 second.



Subtlety Talents (16 points)

# Master of Deception - 5/5 points
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 4)

# Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

# Initiative - 5/5 points
Gives you a 75% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.

# Ghostly Strike - 1/1 point
A strike that deals 125% weapon damage and increases your chance to dodge by 15% for 7 seconds. Awards 1 combo point.

[Rob]

Assassination Talents (30 points)
# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

# Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

# Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

# Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.

# Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

# Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.

# Improved Instant Poison - 5/5 points
Increases the chance to apply Instant Poison to your target by 10%.

# Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.

# Seal Fate - 5/5 points
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.

Combat Talents (8 points)
# Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 seconds.

# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.

# Improved Backstab - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.

Subtlety Talents (13 points)
# Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.
# Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.
# Improved Ambush - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 40%.

Basically i took out remorless strike and put poisons hows this sound for pvp build? i might be totally wrong :/

[undie]

Pictures are worth a thousands words. This should QUICKLY put any swords vs dagger argument to rest for PVE:

http://kintoun.nurfed.com/Rouges_have_it_coming.avi

Lev 48 killing lev 44-46 yetis. And I was doing this long before 48, only recently made the vid.


am i seeing things or is your dps at the end of fights between 110-160 ?

well thats perfectly normal for lvl 48s as far as i know, personally i get 80+ dps on same lvl mobs at lvl 41. with the combat (sword) build posted earlier.

Imo, the only difference is that you start out with dealing less dmg, while we combat rogues end with dealing huge dmg...

And what daggers are you using ? maybe that will explain the 150 dps too :) Got a silly 39-74 dmg sword here in main hand.. :/ ppl my lvl often have 100+ dmg weapons..SM loot :/



and if you're fighting 2 mobs ? you lose that advantage.

and what if it misses ? then you'll have to do the full health with no ambush..........

[Ginny]

I was thrilled to find these explanations! Thank you for the write ups on Rogue Talents.

My question is: now that Sap has been nerfed do you feel that any changes need to be made to these builds to make up for this weakness?

Many of my friends are disappointed in Sap now, as it can really only be used once effectively in a fight (unlike Poly, for example, which can be spammed).

But they are adapting.

Thank you again.

[doN]

My question is: now that Sap has been nerfed do you feel that any changes need to be made to these builds to make up for this weakness?

Many of my friends are disappointed in Sap now, as it can really only be used once effectively in a fight (unlike Poly, for example, which can be spammed).



Not to step on your big green toe, but rogues does not need a boost :) They are rather imba compared to some of the other classes, top 3 without a doubt.

Stay cool 8)

[Ginny]

HELP! :)

Kintoun answered someone's question in this thread about the best build for PvE.

Kintoun wrote:


Build #2 is the best build for this. Adds is common and you rape them with blade flurry. Plus the 10% from parry and dodge is GREAT for PVE. Most mobs are melee and this helps a ton aganst them. In PVP this is near worthless since most dmg you're taking is from spells. I'm not going to go in-depth for a PVE build since thats a whole diff area than PVP, but things you should get are... riposte, parry, dodge, ghostly strike, elusivness, longer evasion duration, blade flurry. You'd be a soloing god.

I play a solo rogue exclusively and find my leveling quite slow so I could really use some help!

Could someone that understands these builds please tailor it to PvE Solo specifically? I just do not have the knowledge and am making a mess of my talents. Kintoun said to include: riposte, parry, dodge, ghostly strike, elusiveness, longer evasion duration, blade flurry.

Can someone design a swords solo/pve rogue around these talents please?

p.s. I would MUCH prefer a dagger solo/pve rogue, but it seems that setting up backstab would be a pain which is no fun: I like daggers :)

[Kintoun]

am i seeing things or is your dps at the end of fights between 110-160 ?

well thats perfectly normal for lvl 48s as far as i know, personally i get 80+ dps on same lvl mobs at lvl 41. with the combat (sword) build posted earlier.

Imo, the only difference is that you start out with dealing less dmg, while we combat rogues end with dealing huge dmg...

And what daggers are you using ? maybe that will explain the 150 dps too :) Got a silly 39-74 dmg sword here in main hand.. :/ ppl my lvl often have 100+ dmg weapons..SM loot :/

and if you're fighting 2 mobs ? you lose that advantage.

and what if it misses ? then you'll have to do the full health with no ambush..........
- 110 was my lowest with 260 being my highest in that vid. The avg was more like 180. Also the DPS thing sux since it doesn't update as often as it should, and literally skips some attacks. You really shouldn't pay attention to it. After all I'm killing the yetis before my stealth recharges which is 10s. At 100 DPS thats 1k health and yetis have double that amount of health.
-I deal less dmg at the start? I think you said that backwards. Your 5 pt evis MUST crit to deal the same dmg as a 100% crit ambush, theres no comparison for that.
-I was using the widowmaker. I also have the bloodrazor (130 dmg) but the dagger build was giving me more dmg.

[kenoki]

I also have the bloodrazor (130 dmg).

Can i call you sneaky pimp? :P

[Incubus]

New here so be gentle!

I never saw this answered (might have missed it):

For the Crit/Dagger build, for PvP, wouldn't it be better to remove Remorseless Attacks? For a pure PvP/DPS build, maybe get improved instant poisons?

Also you mention: "Needless to say, best PVP build until hitting 60 is dagger crit straight up. With 5 leathality my ambushes crit over half the time for 1000. Thats half someones health my level. "

The 'until hitting 60 part' does that mean that you would respec out of it?

[Kintoun]

New here so be gentle!

I never saw this answered (might have missed it):

For the Crit/Dagger build, for PvP, wouldn't it be better to remove Remorseless Attacks? For a pure PvP/DPS build, maybe get improved instant poisons?

Also you mention: "Needless to say, best PVP build until hitting 60 is dagger crit straight up. With 5 leathality my ambushes crit over half the time for 1000. Thats half someones health my level. "

The 'until hitting 60 part' does that mean that you would respec out of it?
If you're PVPing you'll be using crippling poison not instant poison. At best you'll have instant poison on your offhand, 5 talent points is a lot for just an offhand.

At 60 you'll be doing much much more group PVP and the dagger crit isn't necessarily the best for group situations. The type of PVP you find when grinding/questing/levelling is basically ganking - perfect for dagger crit. I know I'll respec at 60... I just haven't decided what to yet, but I'm liking the hybrid build.

[Prince]

These are 2 builds I'm currently debating on taking. Not sure which would be better long term for pvp and pking prowess because I unfortunately wasn't able to test them in CB or OB. But any advice/comments are greatly appreciated.



Build 1. Preperation/Cheapshot build.

Assassination Talents (21 points)


Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.


Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.


Remorseless Attacks - 1/5 point
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 8% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.


Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.


Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.


Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.


Lethality - 4/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 24%.


Improved Instant Poison - 1/5 point
Increases the chance to apply Instant Poison to your target by 2%.


Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.




Combat Talents (1 point)


Improved Sinister Strike - 1/2 point
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 3 Energy.




Subtlety Talents (29 points)


Master of Deception - 5/5 points
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 4)


Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.


Ghostly Strike - 1/1 point
A strike that deals 125% weapon damage and increases your chance to dodge by 15% for 7 seconds. Awards 1 combo point.


Initiative - 5/5 points
Gives you a 75% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.


Improved Rupture - 3/3 points
Increases the damage of dealt by your Rupture ability by 30%.


Improved Sap - 3/3 points
Adds a 90% chance to return to stealth mode after using your Sap ability.


Improved Cheap Shot - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Cheap Shot ability by 20.


Preparation - 1/1 point
When activated, this ability immediately finishes the cooldown on your other Rogue abilities.


Hemorrhage - 1/1 point
An instant strike that damages the opponent and causes the target to hermorrhage, increasing any Physical damage dealt to the target by up to 3. Lasts 30 charges or 15 seconds. Awards 1 combo point.


Setup - 3/3 points
Gives you a 45% chance to add a combo point to your target after dodging their attack.







Explanation: My reasoning behind this build is this. You still get ok crits/damage with cold blood, malice, and lethality. On top of that you get preperation, imo the key defining all powerful spell available to rogues. Basically imo Preperation is a second life. Instant cool down on a 2nd sprint or vanish allowing you to get out of any situation easily. On top of this I will utilize vs all melle/range characters the ghostly strike/setup combo. Setup gives me a 45% chance to add a combo point after dodging an attack, well I'll have a 15% higher dodge chance after using ghostly strike. So I'm still generating combo points through other means with this build. On top of that 800pt eviscerates on armored targets and hemmorage for added dagger damage. The reason I took MOD is for better stealth when I'm hanging around all 40'50'60's. I can always use potions/engineering devices to up my speed in stealth or normal mode, not to mention preperation 2 sprints etc. But I cant up my invisibility detection. This build will take alot of skill to play and won't kill as fast as the 30/8/13 build, but has more options available to it and deadly possibilities.





Build 2. This is build 2, a somewhat offshoot of Kintuon's Hybrid Build.


Assassination Talents (23 points)


Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.


Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.


Remorseless Attacks - 1/5 point
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 8% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.


Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.


Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.


Lethality - 4/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 24%.


Improved Instant Poison - 5/5 points
Increases the chance to apply Instant Poison to your target by 10%.


Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.




Combat Talents (21 points)


Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.


Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 seconds.


Improved Backstab - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.


Deflection - 5/5 points
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.


Riposte - 1/1 point
A strike that becomes active after parrying an opponent's attack. This attack deals 150% weapon damage and disarms the target for 6 seconds.


Improved Sprint - 1/3 point
Reduces the cooldown of your Sprint ability by 30 seconds.


Dagger Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to get a critical strike with Daggers by 5%.


Blade Flurry - 1/1 point
Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 seconds.




Subtlety Talents (4 points)


Mod - 5/5 points
Tougher detection(key with several players around, pots/gear can be used to gain speed)


Explanation: First off 2 points left over. This build is a much more toe/toe fighting build. This build will have great opening damage through backstab, and also staying power toe to toe with 5% higher chance to crit through dag specialization, and 5% parry chance(way more tanks out their than casters atm) And on top of that I took 1 in sprint to speed up the cooldown for quicker opportunities to reuse it if needed. The thing that draws me to a combat/assassination build is the fact that this build creates a stronger fighter. Now sure it wont kill quite as fast as the pure dagger crit, but if revealed and needing to fight, its hits overall will be higher damage and way more proccing/hit ratio. It will have somewhat better defense and with 5/5 in Improved instant poisons on top of the dagger specialization and blade fury, I will be proccing quite a bit.


What are your thoughts?

[Mafiaz]

uhm .. are u serious about the "Remorseless Attacks" ? .. This is a PvP Build right ? .. "after killing an opponent that yields exp" ... beside that u should put 2 points into imp sinister or none at all but not 1 ... (imho ^^ ) also .. max MoD for PvP ? Not really neccesary ... aswell as the 3 Points in Setup .. u maybe put em somewhere else better -.-


sincerely

Yours


Mafiaz

[Prince]

I've changed my build up bigtime since this. But I'm still going assassin/subt with 7 in combo for improved BS.

But yeah remorseless attacks is good, becuase in PVE you get the 20 second buff that adds a higher crit chance, which will help you kill faster. Now in large scale pvp(late game), or even when your jumping groups, if you get a kill, you'll get that buff for 20 seconds, which means after you kill that rogue and now have to face that paladin, you'll if you at least take 3 points, have like 20% higher chance to crit on BS/Cheapshot etc. Thats pretty great.


but yeah I've droped setup, ghostly strike etc. Picked up preperation, rupture and improved sap. Going to be HUGE for lastability in pvp. Ive decided the small extras from the hybrid just arent worth it. parry and 5% more to crit, doesnt really matter.

[ub3rbr0k3]

So a simple question (sorry if I missed it somewhere in this thread)

If I'm building a rogue going for Kintoun's #3 build, should I go straight up the subtlety tree to imp. ambush, then go straight to lethality?

And that would be skipping all the combat talents, which will be taken later assume.

Thanks.

[Rob]

I was wondering what build to use at levle 60 for battlegrounds and such. also i want to be able to do Some damage in instance. Which one would you say?

[undie]

did i say you do less @ the start ? big typo :S

its the other way around as you've stated kintoun

[ro_forums]

I was wondering what build to use at levle 60 for battlegrounds and such. also i want to be able to do Some damage in instance. Which one would you say?
They're all viable, it depends on your playstyle.

[Prince]

Hey guys, what do you think about going all PVE spec until you reach say 50 or so. then respeccing back for PVP?



I'd really like some advice on what would be the best way to spec for PVE until I reach 50 so I could do that. No use in speccing for pvp really unless I want to slow myself down, so advice is definately welcome XD



Great discussions here.

[Urborg]

Hi all,

Kintoun can you tell me why my ambushes are not dealing as much damage?
i am a lvl 55 undead rogue on a pvp server "warsong", using your excact version of "daggers using crits" (without seal fate yet). however, my ambush crits only deal around 700-800 damage on same level mobs. is this because my stats are not high enough, or because my daggers are not good enough? :?
i am currently wielding Enchanted Azsharite Felbane Dagger (37-70 dmg, 35.7 dps, speed 1.50) with Hunt Tracker Blade (35-66 dmg, 33.7 dps, speed 1.50). are my daggers just too low damage or am i missing something? i'm sure my ambushes are supposed to deal more than 700-800 at lvl 55 vs same level mobs.

Urborg

[kenoki]

Hi all,

Kintoun can you tell me why my ambushes are not dealing as much damage?
i am a lvl 55 undead rogue on a pvp server "warsong", using your excact version of "daggers using crits" (without seal fate yet). however, my ambush crits only deal around 700-800 damage on same level mobs. is this because my stats are not high enough, or because my daggers are not good enough? :?
i am currently wielding Enchanted Azsharite Felbane Dagger (37-70 dmg, 35.7 dps, speed 1.50) with Hunt Tracker Blade (35-66 dmg, 33.7 dps, speed 1.50). are my daggers just too low damage or am i missing something? i'm sure my ambushes are supposed to deal more than 700-800 at lvl 55 vs same level mobs.

Urborg

Damages on Ambush are not calculated on your dps but on the damage range of the dagger.Use a slower dagger in main hand with higher damage range will help a lot.Also on this video Kintoun is killing some really low armor mobs, if you wanna do more damages stop hitting elementals. :twisted:

[Kintoun]

Hi all,

Kintoun can you tell me why my ambushes are not dealing as much damage?
i am a lvl 55 undead rogue on a pvp server "warsong", using your excact version of "daggers using crits" (without seal fate yet). however, my ambush crits only deal around 700-800 damage on same level mobs. is this because my stats are not high enough, or because my daggers are not good enough? :?
i am currently wielding Enchanted Azsharite Felbane Dagger (37-70 dmg, 35.7 dps, speed 1.50) with Hunt Tracker Blade (35-66 dmg, 33.7 dps, speed 1.50). are my daggers just too low damage or am i missing something? i'm sure my ambushes are supposed to deal more than 700-800 at lvl 55 vs same level mobs.

Urborg
They rasied the armor of those yetis after the patch, and top end dmg is all that matters for a main hand dagger.

[Murdock]

Kintoun,

Thank you for an excellent post and your informative replies. You builds and explanations started to make me think in other directions. I was originally heading towards a Yojack type of build where the rogue keeps the victim helpless before delivering a coldblooded fivepoint eviscerate. I guess this should be working very well ganking various people out in the frontier (but why should I?) but certanly quite worthless on well-populated battlegrounds. This build has a 100% chance of providing a twopoint ambush, or a 75% threepoint ambush. Positioning isn't as crucial either except for the opener which should appeal to the non-FPS people. Preparation is easy to come by sacrificing some combat or assassination if one were so inclined.

My question is:

Is improved backstab an acceptable loss for the 75% chance of an additional combopoint from Ambush, 10 more energy and skipping the trouble of finding the enemy's back in the heat of the battle (which might be quite laggy)? A macro will swap the highdamage dagger to a sword or mace after the initial Ambush.


Kintoun's Dagger using crit build, modified:

Assassination Talents (31 points)

# Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

# Remorseless Attacks - 5/5 points
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 40% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.

# Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

# Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.

# Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

# Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.

# Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.

# Seal Fate - 5/5 points
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.

# Vigor - 1/1 point
Increases your maximum Energy by 10.



Combat Talents (2 points)

# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.



Subtlety Talents (18 points)

# Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

# Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.

# Improved Ambush - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 40%.

# Initiative - 5/5 points
Gives you a 75% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.


Thank you.

[Kintoun]

Kintoun,
My question is:

Is improved backstab an acceptable loss for the 75% chance of an additional combopoint from Ambush
You want a group PVP rogue for constant PVP on the battlegrounds, you'll need backstab. It'l be 60% of your dmg I'm guesstimating. Even when I PVP 2 on 1, I'll sap one, and kill both with about 8+ backstabs. Sure I could sini also, but looking at the dmg numbers over time, backstab > sini.

Once again it comes down to playstyle. Battlegrounds large scale group PVP most of your damage will be while not stealthed. Small skirmish PVP 5v5 and less, stealthers own. This isn't to say stealthers aren't welcome on battlegrounds. You can wander around choosing your battles looking for those small fights. Not to mention low-skill PVP most ppl won't stack anti-stealth things on you so you're free to vanish or restealth as needed.

[Urborg]

so when you backstab, do you use gouge first then stab em? or do you just run through them and do it?

[Miragul]

Gouge wastes a good deal of energy. I suggest you use it sparingly (i.e. opponent who continually backs up while fighting you). I'm not a fan of circle strafing around someone, but I do use my twitch skills to get behind them as much as possible whether it be running through them or simply goading them into overshooting through me.

[Bovinity]

Yeah, gouge is definately a tool to be used with discretion. I'll usually only use it against casters when kick is down and I really need to interrupt a spell (Incoming Poly, etc) or when I'm fleeing.

It's good to see someone with real experience talking about that Hybrid build, Kintoun. It's almost the exact same build I was thinking about running with, but it was a real pain finding any feedback on it from anyone. I guess no one had tried it before, and I didn't have a clue either, the newb that I was. =D

[Brian]

haven't tried this "solo pve" build yet, but i'm thinking about trying it when i get home from work. Just have a couple things i want to ask/point out.

Right now i'm only lvl 34, and i spent all last night grinding/questing in shimmering flats on the turtles, scorpions, crocs, and birds (range from lvl 33 to 35). On average against these yellow-con (armored?) mobs i range around 120-150 dps (more if i pop cold blood, obviously) using a regular lvl 34 green mace mainhand (something like 33-59 dmg, 21.4 dps) and a swinetusk shank offhand (23 dps, forget dmg range). And this is without using an opener, i usually just pull with a bow and spam ss/evis till the mob dies. I find that the decrease in dps is offset by the increase in pulling speed. With a mace my only openers are cheapshot or garrote. Cheapshot really doesn't increase my dps, and garrote's dps is pretty minor since fights are so short anyways.

So anyways, if i did respec to the solo/pve build and started opening with a crit ambush every time, that'd basically just stack on about 500 dmg or so at my lvl to start every fight off.

Basically my question is, why not just set up a simple macro that switches from a dagger to a sword/mace after you ambush, then switch back when you stealth to go after the next mob? You'd still get the huge dmg opener, and you'd still get the hard hitting ss's... sounds like exp grinding heaven to me.

Like i said i'm at work so i'll test it out when i get home, but if i'm averaging around 130 dps now, i'd think with this method i think i'll be ranging from like 140-160. Not too shabby at lvl 34, heh.


EDIT: as of right now my talents are all in the assassination tree, except for 2 in combat for improved ss. So we'll see if the extra dmg from ambush makes up for the loss of the extra assassination talents. Also i realize i'm at a pretty bad level to be testing this build, since i won't be able to max out leathality until 39.

[SandDemon]

I used to use that macro, from switching from dagger to a hard-hitting weapon for sinister strike. Know what I noticed? It didn't help - why?

Instant Poison

My build, if you've read it a bit lower down the forum (and Kintoun pointed out), http://www.nurfed.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1005

Essentially it uses imp backstab over ambush which is way better in the 40s because of Seal Fate, and improved instant poison and dagger crit later on. The small increase in damage on sinisters, is nothing compared to a higher crit rate on everything and more damage from poisons.

[Brian]

well, that's all well and good once you can get seal fate + imp backstab, but that's not really an option till the late 40's (as you stated).

As for kintoun's "pve build": Well i tried it out, and dps-wise i'm a monster when i'm grinding on low armor mobs, fighting a camp of lvl 32-34 centaurs at lvl 35 i parsed up to 411dps for a single fight, with an average of around 180. Mobs tend to die before stealth even refreshes (and this is with only one point in leathality). My exp. average was right around 24k per hour (not including running to town to sell and crap). It's kinda neat, but now i'm almost completely locked into one style of gameplay which can be a little frustrating.

My overall dps in instance groups has dropped drastically (since you can't ambush every mob), and i'm not as potent in pvp either (losing coldblood hurt quite a bit, although opening up a fight with a 500 dmg ambush is kinda nice.. when it actually crits). Anyways it's got me debating in my head whether I should go for leathality or improved backstab next. Leathality would help my solo killspeed quite a bit because ambush would be that much more potent, but imp. backstab would help everything else (pvp, instance groups, etc).

At the moment i'm leaning towards getting backstab first since i'm starting to get SM groups and right now i only average around 100dps in there (maybe this isn't so bad for a lvl 36? i dunno never did SM with my other build). Either way i'll have both imp bs and leathality by the time i'm 45. (basically dagger crit build, heh)

[Dimas]

How much damage do your non-critical ambushes and backstabs do?

I’m also interested in the whole daggers vs. mace/swords argument, what’s your take on that? I see a lot of people claming mace/swords have a higher SS damage, so they make up for not having ambush or backstab (some claiming they more then make up for it).

EDIT: I know you said before that daggers have higher DPS because of backstab and ambush, but I was wondering if you could toss out some numbers.

[Ghetto]

i find gouge to be very useful, i have improved gouge and seal fate so gouge gives me 20 energy and a free combo point, or if it crits, 3 combo points

i also use gouge to put people in stun lock, i have vigor so i can preform CS + SS then gouge right before cs wears off, with initiative that usually gives me 5 combo points, and the option to pull off a 5 point kidney shot and keep the stun lock going, or a 5 point cb evisc

[Kakarot]

Does Dagger Specialization increase the chance to crit when using Backstab, Sinister Strike etc., or does it only effect the "normal" hits?
Same question about Precision, in order to hit...

Greetings and a happy new year to all of you.

[Captain_Redbeard]

Hi there people.
I'm currently trying to work a good PVP-build and i have some questions.
How useful is ambush (REALLY) in PVP?
I mean lets say you're taken by suprise when grinding in a contested territory, will the rogue be able to finish of his opponent even without the advantage of ambush?
I can see how a warrior will be extremly hard due to his plate and the same goes for the paladin. but what about the rest? Such as the Shamans etc?
If any of you feel you have the time to, please have a look at this build and tell me what you think. The purpose of this rogue is: use ambush as much as possible but still beeing able to whack your foes crazy with sinister strike if the ambush strategy fails. Anyways here it follows:

Subtlety Mastery

Camouflage Rank 5
Opportunity Rank 5
Improved Ambush Rank 3

Subtlety Total: 13


Combat Mastery

Improved Sinister Strike Rank 2
Lightning Reflexes Rank 5
Improved Backstab Rank 3
Deflection Rank 5
Dagger Specialization Rank 5

Combat Total: 20


Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate Rank 3
Malice Rank 5
Murder Rank 2
Lethality Rank 5

Assassination Total: 15


This build also leaves me with 3 points i'm not all that sure where to spend, any suggestions are welcome.
I'm now lvl 30 and so far this build is working out fine. but what about when he's in his 50's and even 60's?

Sincerely
/Captain_Redbeard[/b]

[South]

Hi all :D

I've been reading rogue forums for a long time (vn boards, rpgforums, ign, nurfed, blizz forums,..) and I've found lots of differents builds. I'd like to know 2 little things please :P

What do you think about a Stun build? (21-4-26|assa/combat/sub) Do you think it would be viable for RAID PVP?

Another thing, What is the "best" RAID PVP BUILD? I guess that those ambush/backstab builds are nice for solo pvp, maybe for 5vs5 and rarely for mass pvp. Just guessing, but in raid pvp you can't rely on STEALTH (not vanish -if they are smart ull have a dot always-).

I wanted to follow a STUN BUILD but I've been thinking about highend PVP and I don't think it would be possible to always select your targets (you stun your prey, the rest of ppl is gonna kill u in no time :x).

Thank you very much :P

PD: If I'm not wrong, you're going to lvl up with a 30-21-0 and at 60 u'll reset your talents to your final build, Am I correct?

[Halicon]

Had to register just to see the response on my build, which is based on SandDemon's build a few posts up. Would especially love to get your (kintouns) response on it.
SandDemons build really got me thinking in a completely new way.


Assassination Talents (30 points)
# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points

# Malice - 5/5 points

# Ruthlessness - 3/3 points

# Murder - 2/2 points

# Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point

# Lethality - 5/5 points

# Improved Instant Poison - 5/5 points

# Cold Blood - 1/1 point

# Seal Fate - 5/5 points

Combat Talents (21 points)

# Improved Gouge - 3/3 points

# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points

# Lightning Reflexes - 1/5 point
Increases your Dodge chance by 1%.

# Improved Backstab - 3/3 points

# Deflection - 5/5 points

# Riposte - 1/1 point

# Dagger Specialization - 5/5 points

# Blade Flurry - 1/1 point

Basically I am dropping Remorseless for one extra point in poisons, ruthlessness and relentless for obvious reasons.
Remorseless appears to be bugged/or not needed, as you don't gain exp from killing players? Haven't really understood how this skill works, can anyone clarify this for me?

I will respec to this build from earlier using kintouns solo pve build, as I realized while raiding and pvp'ing that ambush just doesn't work well with other classes.

[Ralrra]

Remorseless procs off every kill in PvP, no matter what their level.

[Intrigue]

What do you guys believe is the best leveling setup for rogues?

I just started the game 2 days ago for the first time and my friend said to come to this website for talent templates and tips.

Currently I have a level 23 Rogue with none of his talent points invested so that once I learn where its most useful to invest them I can do so.

I've been playing MMOs for years, but this is my first time playing WoW so I appologize if I sound a little clueless asking for help here, but I figure it pays to ask for help from those who know much more than I do than to create a major hole in my characters pockets by investing in skills that are not useful and then forgetting them.

I primarily use sinister strike and then eviscerate as my finish move, although I do mix things up occasionally when its beneficial, but as I said above this is for a leveling rogue, hence PvE, so this isn't for the most lethal PvP template.

Anyway if you guys have any tips I'd really appreciate it.

Thankyou,

Intrigue

[Brian]

i'd suggest putting 2 points into improved ss, that's a given for any rogue who wants to solo for exp.

After that, it's probably easiest to just keep dumping points in assassination all the way up to seal fate. Just make sure you always go for the hardest hitting main-hand weapon you can find. (usually maces/swords.. pay attention to the DAMAGE, not just the dps.. slower, harder hitting weapons are much better for your mainhand if you're using ss for dmg). That's basically what i did up to 35 and it worked just fine.

Kintoun's pve build may be more efficient for grinding mobs (mobs go down faster), but it takes a bit more work to stealth up and ambush every single mob. Either build is very good for levelling up.. just decide which playstyle you'd enjoy more.

I found assassination w/ maces/swords to be more FUN to play when i was grinding out mobs. But i find daggers/backstabbing to be more fun for pvp.

[Intrigue]

also if I were to reroll to Horde would you recommend Trolls or Undead for rogues?

[Palmen]

Undead all the way.

Will of the forsaken for the win ^^

[Iscariot]

Just as a counter voice from someone who does have Adrenaline Rush. Despite the 6 minute timer, this ability really is an ace in the hole for me. Where many rogues struggle against Warriors and Paladins, Rush gives me the upper hand against them in terms of pure, consistant, damage output. Its animation is very subtle (looks alot like Thrash blade proc) and therefore its hard to spot in pvp to get the CC laid down on you.

Adrenaline Rush, I think, definately deserves a place in pvp rogue builds as I have great susccess at taking down other melees and have yet to encounter problems with casters.

[Brian]

it's a tough choice though to give up 2 good skills for 1.

adrenaline rush vs Cold-Blood AND seal fate.

especially with seal fate being bugged atm so it gives +2 points instead of +1.. if you have 50%+ chance to crit on backstabs, plus a guarunteed crit on either an ambush or an evis, that's a lot of extra cp's being built up over the course of a fight.. i think it would outweigh the extra 150 energy you get from adrenaline rush..

(20 extra energy every 2 seconds over 15 seconds = 150.. tho i'm not sure if it splits that last tick in half or not to give you 10 instead of 20, heh.. maybe someone could test ;P)

[South]

CB + 5 point eviscerate (done with a stun combo = no damage dealt to you) x 2 with preparation = a lot of damage

Am I wrong?

PD: I posted one page before a stun build for pvp, asking for your opinions, what do you think about it?

[Filth]

Small question.... if i pop cold blood as i sneak up on someone, will it take me out of stealth?

[Jekal]

Small question.... if i pop cold blood as i sneak up on someone, will it take me out of stealth?

no

[Filth]

cool, thanx

[South]

Just to sum up:

- While leveling to 60: hybrid build (assa/combat)
- Low/mid level pvp: BS/AMBUSH builds
- High level pvp (raids, battlegrounds,...): The one you prefer?

Am I right?

Thank you :roll:

[Xodus22]

I'm making a rogue for a PVE server and here's my model so far, please tell me what you think.

Assassination Talents (30 points) :

Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points

Malice - 5/5 points

Ruthlessness - 3/3 points

Murder - 2/2 points

Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point

Expose Armor - 3/3 points

Lethality - 5/5 points

Improved Instant Poison - 2/5 points

Cold Blood - 1/1 point

Seal Fate - 5/5 points


Combat Talents (21 points) :

Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points

Lightning Reflexes - 4/5 point

Improved Backstab - 3/3 points

Deflection - 5/5 points

Riposte - 1/1 point

Dagger Specialization - 5/5 points

Blade Flurry - 1/1 point


Basically I used the Hybrid model as a basis and took out Remorseless Attack in Assassination in favor of 3/3 points in Expose Armor and 2/5 points in Vile Poisons. Also, I took out one point from Lightning Reflexes and Precision in Combat in favor of 2/2 points on Improved Sinister Strike.

I figured that Remorseless Attack wouldn't be all that great in PVE and I've heard that Expose Armor is good for helping parties in high level instances where the mob has a lot of def. Please comment if you can! :D 8)

[Ralrra]

remorseless is awesome for PvE. You'll get a lot of kill shots simply from raw damage output when grouped, and it's really awesome for solo.

[Xodus22]

remorseless is awesome for PvE. You'll get a lot of kill shots simply from raw damage output when grouped, and it's really awesome for solo.


Hmm, so even in PVE I should take 5/5 Remorseless instead of 3/3 Expose Armor and 2/5 Vile Poisons? Can you confirm or deny if Expose Armor is a usefull skill on bosses in PVE instances? Thanks in advance :D

[ro_forums]

remorseless is awesome for PvE. You'll get a lot of kill shots simply from raw damage output when grouped, and it's really awesome for solo.


Hmm, so even in PVE I should take 5/5 Remorseless instead of 3/3 Expose Armor and 2/5 Vile Poisons? Can you confirm or deny if Expose Armor is a usefull skill on bosses in PVE instances? Thanks in advance :D
Expose armor does not stack with sunder armor, and in instances warrior will be mostly in defensive stance doing exactly that, so expose armor loses it's effectiveness there. I much rather rupture if it's a high AC boss. 2/5 vile poisons are not really worth it.

[Xodus22]

Expose armor does not stack with sunder armor, and in instances warrior will be mostly in defensive stance doing exactly that, so expose armor loses it's effectiveness there. I much rather rupture if it's a high AC boss. 2/5 vile poisons are not really worth it.


I see. Sorry if these are sounding like newbie questions, but I only got to level 20 in open beta and haven't started retail yet, so I don't know a whole lot. But I have one more question: if the 3/3 Expose Armor isn't worth it, then would 5/5 Vile poisons be better than 5/5 Remorseless Attack for PVE? Thanks again!

[Brian]

i'd still go with remorseless attacks, if you ever solo a camp of mobs, you can open up *every single* fight with a crit ambush and drop half the mobs hp right from the get-go.

And in group pve, if you get the killshot your next backstab on the next mob will be a crit, too. I usually do about double the dps of anyone in my group, so i get quite a few killshots and i've found remorseless to be quite nice for lvl'ing up. My poisons only account for a pretty small percentage of my damage, and in a lot of instances you'll be using crippling poison on one of your weapons anyways, so i don't think it would help you as much as remorseless would.

/shrug

[South]

Just to sum up because with all those posts I am a little confused,

- While leveling to 60: hybrid build (assa/combat)
- Low/mid level pvp: BS/AMBUSH builds
- High level pvp (raids, battlegrounds,...): The one you prefer

Please, am I right?

:roll: :roll:

[Kintoun]

Just to sum up because with all those posts I am a little confused,

- While leveling to 60: hybrid build (assa/combat)
- Low/mid level pvp: BS/AMBUSH builds
- High level pvp (raids, battlegrounds,...): The one you prefer

Please, am I right?

:roll: :roll:
It's not that hard, for PVE to 60.... use the PVE build. For PVP, use any of the PVP builds depending on your preference.

[South]

Just to sum up because with all those posts I am a little confused,

- While leveling to 60: hybrid build (assa/combat)
- Low/mid level pvp: BS/AMBUSH builds
- High level pvp (raids, battlegrounds,...): The one you prefer

Please, am I right?

:roll: :roll:
It's not that hard, for PVE to 60.... use the PVE build. For PVP, use any of the PVP builds depending on your preference.

Ok, Thank you very much. I was a little confused because I read that you were trying the Hybrid build and that you liked it for PVE (you were talking about adds and blade of flury).

Thank you! And great post Kintoun.

[Kasper]

I am leaning towards using the very first build, but I am rathier a noob with the rogue. Right now my rogue is lvl15 and I haven't spent any talent points yet and was wondering if someone could put the first build in a good order to get the talents that would help me the most.. i.e. get more combat talents first. Anway, thanks for your help.

[deadfuse]

What I don't understand is why there is such a huge discussion of dagger vs. mace/sword? The majority of the crit talents apply just as much to swords/maces as they do to daggers, so why not use both?

With all the macro tools out there, it is extremely easy to make a macro that will switch your weapons for you. Ambush with a dagger, flip over to the mace. Feel like backstabbing? Gouge, flip over to the dagger, and there you go.

The slight delay during weapon switching is a fraction of a second (and during a gouge it doesn't matter anyway), and according my (albeit limited) research, I don't lose any swings.

So why the big debate? Is the discource limited to the 50+ levels? If so, then I guess I'd have to put my vote towards the daggers due to the extremely powerful poisons that are available at such levels. :P

[deadfuse]

Also, as far as Kintoun's hybrid dagger combat build, since the build considers the player to be level 60, wouldn't it be more effective to drop the 5 ranks of remorseless for 5 ranks of instant poison? As I see it, remorseless is a PVE-only talent, and you won't be grinding MOBs at 60, and in instances you won't be getting the killing blow that often. Wouldn't the much improved chance to lay on that Rank VI Instant Poison be far more useful?

Correct me if I'm wrong. :P

[Ralrra]

Also, as far as Kintoun's hybrid dagger combat build, since the build considers the player to be level 60, wouldn't it be more effective to drop the 5 ranks of remorseless for 5 ranks of instant poison? As I see it, remorseless is a PVE-only talent, and you won't be grinding MOBs at 60, and in instances you won't be getting the killing blow that often. Wouldn't the much improved chance to lay on that Rank VI Instant Poison be far more useful?

Correct me if I'm wrong. :P

Remorseless procs off every PvP kill also (regardless of level)

[Tarmon Gaiden]

Kintoun,

I am a big fan of this board and have learned a lot about the rogue character since reading this message. I am fairly new to the game and have leveled up a rogue, my first character, to level 35. I am using your Dagger using crit build which I love thus far and am finding it to be very effective at level 35.

To this point, I have put 24 points into assassination and am one point away from starting my Seal Fate series, which I am excited about. One question I have though is why you don't recommend Vigor in any of your templates. It seems that 10 points of added energy and 30 points of assassination as a rite of passage would make Vigor a highly desirable skill??? I was wondering if you would exchange a point in Vigor for a point in Improved Backstab (Combat school) for a PvP rogue build? Thanks very much for your feedback!

TG

[Ralrra]

Vigor is worthless IMO. You should only ever be at full energy once in a fight (before it begins.) The question isn't really why Vigor sucks, but why anything you'd drop is far superior. For example, Improved Backstab is very very nice for PvP, it's very easy through simple movement to get backstabs off in large scale pvp, and having them crit more often is far better than an extra 10 energy.

[Kintoun]

The only time I will be looking at vigor again is when I get 5 pieces of the Nightslayer set. It yields +10 energy also, so with a total of +20 energy some pretty wicked combos can be made out of stealth.

[LuNaTiC]

Great job all that builds
I play for Eu Closed beta and my primary char is 60lvl warrior tauren
I start to play recently a Troll Rogue
Compared to my warrior ....I LOVE THAT SPEED :PP

My question is ...i see all that builds...and if dont make a mistake ... u dont use at any build the extra crit from daggers ....

I think at retail if im gonna play rogue ...to dont spend any point on subt talent tree... So what u suggest to put my points?

My rogue is --> http://www.wowrankings.com/viewb.htm?name=Djredalert&s_id=58
As u can see i play dual maces and i have mace special 6% Stun ...
I find it pretty nice on PVE so start with cheap shot , max combo points kidney and the mace stun sometimes let me kill a mob without any damage taken

I dont know if that works on PVP and i cant try it at the moment cause my PC and Connection line isnt that good to let me have a good fight

My talents --> http://www.wowrankings.com/viewb.htm?c=view_talents&id=7023&tab=2

Now my think is ...after i max out aggresion...3/3 --> 29 Combat Talents
So i have 22 Talent Points for Assasination
I plan to have
Improved Eviscerate 3/3
Remorseless Attacks 2/5
Malice 5/5
Ruthlessness 3/3
Murder 2/2
Relentless Strikes 1/1
Lethality 5/5
Cold Blood 1/1


Now ... thats how i plan to build my rogue
so far i have good damage and some high ratio crits due to my high agility (for my level)

Now tell me if change weapons to daggers ...and remove stun sepcial and add a Dagger Specialization if my rogue gonna have many and high damage crits

also add me some suggestions ^^
see ya ...
4 THE HORDE !!

[Palmen]

Imo All hord rouges should be UD, WoF is to good not to have, i totaly stomp Priests and Warlocks becous of it.

So my suggestion to you is reroll as a UD ;)

[LuNaTiC]

i dont really know...i like trolls cause berseker ( free slice )
+5 beast ( good for solo)


from the other side orc have the best agility ? is that worth to pick him?

[Palmen]

the starting bonus to agil isent worth it, in the end it wond to that much anyway.. And orcs ony got crap racial skills for a rouge.

UD on the other hand got the best racial a rouge can ever want, a kill Priest/Wralock button :P

[LuNaTiC]

i see...so ...no orc...
ok
what about my first post?

[Sajber]

Ok, I have a question... Which build, of the Dagger Crit one and the Stealthier one (first build and third build), would be best at all three things: PvE (mostly solo), PvP 1v1 and PvP group?

[Palmen]

i see...so ...no orc...
ok
what about my first post?

If your not going to play UD rouge, it dosent mahter if your Troll or orc imo... Troll got the beast slaying thing that might be nice when your lvling but nothing that dosent make the superior to Orc if you ask me.

UD is the best race for Rouge hands donw tho ^^

Your talent build looks fun and nice to me (going to test a mace Rouge my self ^^). the only lame thing whit mace builds is that when you have all the nice talents you need 2 more points in crap to get mace mastery (i dont like imp gauge, i dont see why you should use gauge in a mace build and dual mastery isent that good >_<). I dont like to spend talent points in skills i wont use >_<

[LuNaTiC]

but i dont use mproved Gouge
see my talents again?

[South]

One question please :P

How does the crit chance add to ie: 65%crit chance to ambush? Is it 65%+18%? (If I had a 18% chance to crit)

[phor]

the 65% comes from the assumption that you have 20% base chance to crit.

you get 45% better chance from improved ambush talent.

so if you had 18% instead of 20% base chance to crit, then your ambush crit chance would be 18+45 = 63%

[South]

Thank you :D

[Palmen]

but i dont use mproved Gouge
see my talents again?

i know, im only reflecting over how ther is no good place to spend the last points befor you get mace mastery =/

[Nerus]

Based on that vid, the only thing Rogues got comming is a buff.

Your fighting stuff atleast 4 or 5 levels lower?
Everyone knows Yeti have low AC.
Your miss rates are shit, first fight was a joke, like 5 good crits to kill the mob and had like 14-15 misses.

There is no better build than a sword build, dagger rogues are gimps and always will be gimps. You have to take into advantage the biggest thing rogue has, which is Instant attacks that have 75? Dmg on them, not including the weapon.

[Miragul]

Did you grind to 60 and quit? Saying dagger rogues are gimped is the most ignorant statement I've seen on these boards to date. Dagger Rogues are better than Sword/Mace Rogues by a decent margin.

If decent dps daggers were available, why would a Rogue choose a weapon (mace/sword) that would only allow them to use two of the special damaging skills that Rogues use on a normal basis (SS and Evisc). Why not take advantage of BS as well? If anyone is gimped, and I don't think its possible to be gimped as a Rogue no matter what you choose, then it would be sword/mace Rogues.

To gimp oneself you must bypass things that are free to you as a Rogue...such as backstab and ambush. Personally, I think ambush is a waste of energy since cheapshot and backstab with one SS thrown in while the target is still stunned will effectively outdamage ambush and do it much more efficiently. Especially if ambush were to miss.

So explain to me how dagger Rogues are gimped again?

[South]

Based on that vid, the only thing Rogues got comming is a buff.

Your fighting stuff atleast 4 or 5 levels lower?
Everyone knows Yeti have low AC.
Your miss rates are shit, first fight was a joke, like 5 good crits to kill the mob and had like 14-15 misses.

There is no better build than a sword build, dagger rogues are gimps and always will be gimps. You have to take into advantage the biggest thing rogue has, which is Instant attacks that have 75? Dmg on them, not including the weapon.

Good point but I assume your talking about PVE. In PVP things would change. Beeing able to open with a crit(65%) ambush + gouge + crit BS (50%)+ gouge + BS (50% so 1/2 well lets say u dont crit)+ crit evis (CB) = a lot of damage quite quickly. Is not that bad. One last thing, I'm a firmly fan of /saveset 1 /loadset 1 etc You MUST have 2 sets of weapons in order to be take advantage of the 2 good things rogue has: big damge bursts (BS; AMBUSH) and big damage hits (SS).

What do you think?

[Nox]

assassination rogues rely on getting the drop on their target. If the target is aware, or denies them the opportunity to do this, they are largely blunted.

They also rely on killing the target in one massive combo. If this fails, they are left hanging with 20+ skill points in trees that don't help them.

IMO assassination rogues are too stacked for solo pve grinding. Yes, remorseless is just dandy for killing one mob after another with your massive ambush - especially same or lower level mobs.

I don't believe in either extreme, personally. I feel the sword rogues, especially adrenalyne sword rogues who rely on overpowering their targets once every 6 minutes are somewhat overstacked as well. I think the tree benefits them more up to that point, but they can still be relying on the easy win from adrenalyne.

Most of what the rogue does is situational. Maximizing impact in the situations a rogue finds themselves in to me makes tem more potent and more survivable.

For me, I carry a one-handed sword and a dagger. In some situations, I swap dagger into main hand, and others I swap sword in to main hand. My enchantments are going to be weapon chain and frozen, to free up my swords for instant poison. My build is a combat build with improved backstab and instant poison and master of deception. I tend to open with cheap shot instead of ambush, and rely on the stun and combo points rather than the one-hit-kill.

So, for me - rather than being a one-trick-pony who can do specific things, I'm more about broadening my tactical options. I feel a rogue is a finesse class, and for sure when I run into a rogue who I think is stacked for one good thing, I disable that and then I fight then without their specific intended advantage.

It works for me.
.

[South]

My enchantments are going to be weapon chain and frozen, to free up my swords for instant poison.

What's weapong chain? I've heard it so much times and I still don't know what it is. Thank you in advance :)

I think that you must follow the build that fits your playstile. Some love to select fights (you don't have to rush into combat without thinking before, you're a rogue not a warrior), others enjoy keeping targets stunned and etc.

[Ralrra]

My enchantments are going to be weapon chain and frozen, to free up my swords for instant poison.

What's weapong chain? I've heard it so much times and I still don't know what it is. Thank you in advance :)

I think that you must follow the build that fits your playstile. Some love to select fights (you don't have to rush into combat without thinking before, you're a rogue not a warrior), others enjoy keeping targets stunned and etc.

Weapon chain means you can't be disarmed. Pretty sure it's a Blacksmith enhancement (like counterweight, etc.) not positive on that thought.

[partoN]

I really like you builds, especially "Dagger using crit build"... but my guildies just say that i _have to_ get imp sap and MoD for instances etc...

Is this a good move? And if i got those two, what should I remove?

[deadfuse]

If you want improved sap and are willing to go that far up in the subtlety tree, might as well go with the stealther rogue build. Since your concern is a PVE one, moving the points from Camo over to MoD won't harm you too much.

Losing Seal Fate is harsh, but if you're running instances with your guild members, you don't want to be dealing THAT much damage THAT fast... they'd have to always be pealing aggro off your ass. :P

Of course, if the mob you're targetting evaporates in a mist of blood and gore, you don't have to worry much about aggro. So, if you really really want to keep Seal Fate, and since Improved Sap still has a chance to fail, just move the points from Camo over to MoD and use Sap + Vanish.

[Miragul]

I really like you builds, especially "Dagger using crit build"... but my guildies just say that i _have to_ get imp sap and MoD for instances etc...

Is this a good move? And if i got those two, what should I remove?

Imp Sap is not that important once you reach level 55+...just about everything gets mobbed by raid groups or AEd to death. Use the points somewhere else.

[arch]

I'm thinking of going Hybrid Build. Now leveling there is another thing, how would you specc from level 10 - 55?

[Crixalix]

For the first build, can you do the Sword of Omen in the offhand and a nice dagger in the main, so you can still get the ambush off? Or do you recommend just going dual dagger?

[Andaren]

correct me if im wrong, but as long as the build isn't using dagger mastery, I beleive you can use whatever offhand you want and not be penalized. Just grab whatever has best speed/dps combo.

[partoN]

I also wonder what is the best... Dagger in main and sword in off or daggers in both? :roll:

[deadfuse]

I don't think it really matters what goes in your off-hand as far as damage is concerned... the damage done is pretty negligible anyway. So just take whatever the fastest thing is for those interrupts and poison proccs. Of course, if you find something a bit slower but with much better damage and/or nice proc, go ahead and use it.

[Miragul]

Yep, as I was leveling up I went with the fastest available weapon (while maintaining the best dps possible) for my offhand that I could find. Then I used the highest max damage range or decent dps weapon I found regardless of speed in my mainhand.

Now that I've been 60 for a while and found two pretty good daggers I am sticking with that. It's personal preference really. With the build I have I can generate CPs very fast with backstab crits so daggers are what I'm using right now. It would take some seriously wicked dps swords/maces to make me switch.

Experiment as you level up and figure out what your preferences are. Then look on Thottbot or some other search and figure out where to go to find the weapons you want. Both dual daggers and sword/mace combos do similar damage. Playstyle and your preference should ultimately be the deciding factor (and your talent build of course).

[Koryu]

I'm interested to hear you guys' thoughts on this build.


Assassination Talents &#40;30 points&#41;

# Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

# Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

# Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.

# Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

# Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.

# Vile Poisons - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt by your poisons by 15%.

# Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.

# Seal Fate - 5/5 points
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.



Combat Talents &#40;8 points&#41;

# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.

# Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 seconds.

# Improved Backstab - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.



Subtlety Talents &#40;13 points&#41;

# Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

# Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.

# Improved Ambush - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 40%.





Basically all it replaces is remorseless with vile poisons. With a fast hitting dagger in offhand, I'd have ~200ish damage proccing every few seconds. Remorseless just doesn't seem to be that great for me. It was great for leveling to 60, don't get me wrong, but it seems like a waste of 5 points to me. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

[phor]

as far as the math is concerned, you'll get way more added poision damage if you go with imp instant poison instead of imp vile poisons.

at rank 6, instant does 112-148 dmg and has a 20% proc rate.

over 100 hits, with imp vile poison you get on average:
(112*1.15)*20 = 2576 to (148*1.15)*20 = 3404 dmg

over 100 hits with imp instant poison you get on average:
112*30 = 3360 to 148*30 = 4440 dmg

so on average over 100 hits, the dmg is 2290 with vile and 3900 with imp instant.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're using instant poision, i think it's a no brainer which one is better.
vile does help with deadly poison though, but I don't know many people that actually use deadly poison over instant.

[Nox]

Well, just like the guys who want to quote the theoretical damage of repeatedly hitting someone with sinister strike being the highest maximum damage output - I'll say this about instant poison ... it's entirely situational.

I've seen a lot of invalid number crunching from people who want to justify rogue builds that are merely paper theory builds. Again, I'll say this - the rogue has a huge array of tools and those tools when applied at the right time, leverage the rogue into creating opportunities for major effect.

It is NOT how you theorize it, it's the application of those theories which make the rogue. The rogue is not so much any one skill being used repeatedly, but rather designing a build in which various elements of the build support one another.

[phor]

If the choice was between vile and imp instant poisions nox, which would you pick?

I dont' understant how anyone in their right mind would pick vile poisons over imp instant. The only reason would be if you used deadly poisons often (which i have yet to see a single rogue using deadly in the first place).

Even though the math may be theoretical, you can't just blow off the results as if they were not applicable ingame. The results show that if you use instant poison, you'll get more dmg out of imp instant than you will out of vile, which is 100% true ingame, just as it is on paper. Where is this "invalid number crunching"?

now if you're talking about picking imp instant over remorseless, i didn't say a single word about that, and THAT is a situation where the math would be "invalid" because each talent respectively is effective in different situations.

but if you're just talking about which talent adds more dmg to instant poison(which i clearly was), my math is anything but invalid.


Well, just like the guys who want to quote the theoretical damage of repeatedly hitting someone with sinister strike being the highest maximum damage output - I'll say this about instant poison ... it's entirely situational.

I've seen a lot of invalid number crunching from people who want to justify rogue builds that are merely paper theory builds. Again, I'll say this - the rogue has a huge array of tools and those tools when applied at the right time, leverage the rogue into creating opportunities for major effect.

It is NOT how you theorize it, it's the application of those theories which make the rogue. The rogue is not so much any one skill being used repeatedly, but rather designing a build in which various elements of the build support one another.

Instead of taking a childish stab at my post (which is the only purpose that your post could have possibly had because it sure as hell didn't answer any part of his question), why don't you try to actually help him decide.

[Lustt]

weapon chaining = having your weapon equipped with a weapon chain (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=11284)
which stops it being disarmed :]

learn something new everyday ;D

*answering post on previous page*

[rjah]

I was wondering if I could get some feedback on a build I am considering. I am at that stage of gear farming and instance running to prepare for Raids etc. As such I almost never solo any more, and I because of the grouping, and dots on mobs, I am not always garunteed the kill hit on most mobs. I would say I get the kill 1 in 3 times. Well here is the build.

Assassination Talents (21 points)


Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.

Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.

Improved Instant Poison - 1/5 point
Increases the chance to apply Instant Poison to your target by 2%.

Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.


Combat Talents (30 points)

Lightning Reflexes - 5/5 points
Increases your Dodge chance by 5%.

Deflection - 5/5 points
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.

Precision - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.

Improved Backstab - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.

Riposte - 1/1 point
A strike that becomes active after parrying an opponent's attack. This attack deals 150% weapon damage and disarms the target for 6 seconds.

Improved Evasion - 2/2 points
Increases the effect duration of your Evasion ability by 4 seconds.

Dagger Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to get a critical strike with Daggers by 5%.

Blade Flurry - 1/1 point
Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 seconds.

Aggression - 3/3 points
Increases the damage of your Sinister Strike and Eviscerate abilities by 6%.


Subtlety Talents (0 points)

None


Basically my current playstyle is to rely on Eviscerate pretty heavilly. I would open most fights with a CS (unless they are immune of course), then drop an evisc right away. I try to chain Evisc as much as possible (milking the 60% chance of a free combo point). My reason for this mentality is that my rank 1 evisc does more dmg than a SS does, but costs 10 less energy (before SS talents). When I do not get the 'free' combo point I save up for a BS and then start the chain Evisc again.

I have VERY little burst DPS, but I am hoping my sustained DPS over the fight will be strong.

I have been trying to see if I can proc a posion on an Eviscerate, and so far my results have been inconclusive (sp?). Does anyone know if you can get a poison proc when you use an ability?

Well, if you can give any insight to point allocation changes I could make it would be appreciated. I really think the extra dmg increase from Aggression will help me overall, which is why I sunk so many points into Combat. As for the 2 points I have in evasion, I generally can feint aggro away but in the circumstances where I have to sap, or they are immune to feint... was that a waste of points?

My brain is fried, any feedback would be nice.

[Nox]

This is very close to my build -

I'm iffy on improved evasion and dagger spec, I am leaning towards improved kick.

Blade flurry is cool, but adrenalyne which is another 1-pointer in the right situation is incredibly brutal (i.e. cheap shot, adrenalyne, ... into kidney )

[rjah]

This is very close to my build -

I'm iffy on improved evasion and dagger spec, I am leaning towards improved kick.

Blade flurry is cool, but adrenalyne which is another 1-pointer in the right situation is incredibly brutal (i.e. cheap shot, adrenalyne, ... into kidney )

Wow, that was really a good point... In fact I can barely remember the last time I have used Cold Blood. I RARELY build up the 4-5 point evisc to make it worth my time, and quite frankly the dmg from Ambush (even critted) is fairly lacking without Seal of Fate...

So I drop Cold Blood, and move that point into Adrenaline... (ponders)

As for improved kick over evasion, that would be awesome against those damn Arcanists... uhg. Hrm... I do use kick more than evasion. Also a good point.

Let me try and explain my reservations with this though. It's Backstab. The skill just costs SO much energy. I mean, its nuts. Also I am dumping 8 talent points to make it worthwhile (3 imp BS, 5 Lethality), which offer absolutely NO DPS increase to my standard playstyle. Is it worth it for me to even put so much into a skill that I want to be a non-focal point of my build?

I wish I wasn't so addicted to daggers, I don't even know what I would use in my mainhand if it wasnt a dagger. (As in which sword/mace) And I love the extra 5% crit on daggers... Wait does that even increase my crit % with eviscerate? Because if not that would make me feel a lot better about swapping those talents elsehwere..

Once again, any feedback is awesome. I have been trying to sort this out for quite some time now.

[Nox]

I'm clearly torn about the whole dagger spec thing.

I am really not a fan of these 'Put all your eggs in one basket' rogue builds, like the 5-dot cold blood evisc sword builds, and the 'massive attack out of stealth' builds.

I see the rogue as being a class that has a lot of tools it can use in the right situation, such as backstab when presented the opportunity and short stuns, silence, daze and other effects.

My strategy in general is to get the most ouf of every point I put in talents by trying to arrange that they build on one another, or are 'as good' as I can get them without sacrificing too much else.

My particular build is a set of tools that I have carefully and deliberately chosen to help me defeat other players in pvp, as that is my main reason for playing wow. It's clearly far inferior to builds stacked for maximizing soloing - but it was never intended to be.

Damage, with rogues is clearly situational. Beware of people who number crunch theoretical damages without remembering what every fight is like for a rogue. I am never, ever in one place longer than it takes me to move to another place in a pvp fight unless I'm dead or can't move. I am all over the place, and my biggest concern is generally to try to avoid getting locked into a toe to toe fight with someone when their help is on the way, coming unsapped, about to come out of blind...

I've had people ridicule my choice of improved gouge, for instance without realizing that I use that all the time in many different ways to stun/immobilize/mini-mez single and multiple opponents. It's a tool, like others which is only as valuable as your application of it.

so, rambling on.. =)

[Xeylik]

Awsome video, and really nice explenation for builds. I was going to take a strange talent build based on defense/parry/stealth, build was going to be Combat/Subtlety strange and ugly uh? but o well, i made that build thinking about EverQuest rogues, they are uber nice dps, they based on their AGI and AC (armor class) and all that.

Now i have decided im taking stealther build, after looking at that video, im surprised about rogue dmg and soloing type :P
Thank you for build examples :) :lol: :wink:

other thing: for stealther build wat is preffered Dagger/Sword or Both Dagger ?

[Miragul]

I find dagger spec and seal fate to be the most effective way to crit for combo points which then allows me to either stun as much as possible (2 points in imp kidney shot) or eviscerate/dot/etc.

I honestly haven't tried Adrenaline Rush and I'm sure it is great for sword/mace users, but when it comes to daggers I don't see any benefit to choosing AR over SF. Backstab crits happen extremely often with my current crit percentage (25.25%) and many times I'm left with 5 CPs on my second attack after Cheap Shot.

I agree with a lot of the things Nox said. I'm not a fan of Gouge for the simple fact that it uses so much energy. It is a great stun though and I imagine having Imp Gouge really helps survivability. I replace that with having Imp Kidney and no matter what spec I end up with in the future, I can't imagine being without it. Great for PvE and PvP alike.

Still, it doesn't matter how many times I change my spec...trying to get that perfect balance. I always end up wishing Bliz would give me another 10 points to use 8)

[rjah]

I'm clearly torn about the whole dagger spec thing.

I've had people ridicule my choice of improved gouge, for instance without realizing that I use that all the time in many different ways to stun/immobilize/mini-mez single and multiple opponents. It's a tool, like others which is only as valuable as your application of it.


Improved gouge is something I had not truly considered, and that made me wonder why. I think perhaps our raiding is a little too hectic (sp?). For as you say it is a great tool to use as a mez, not only in PvP but also in PvE. Even though it can be bothersome to get placement on a player/mob that is running away... grr.

Thankfully I am still re-considering the build. As such I had to ask myself why I am using 3 talent points for BS. I think that your utility/dmg output with Adrenaline rush would be more suited to SS, especially since I now lack Seal Fate (oh how blissful its bugged state is). If I swap from Imp BS, to Imp SS, that frees up 1 talent point straight up...

Well here is the revision so far, tell me if you think you see any weak spots. I seem to be as focused on sustained dmg and versatility as you are. I have had 60 levels on 4-6 second kills (massive stealther), but I am done with that.

So uhh (finds himself also rambling..) here it is:

Assassination Talents (17 points)

# Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

# Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

# Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.

# Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

# Lethality - 3/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 18%.


Combat Talents (34 points)

# Lightning Reflexes - 5/5 points
Increases your Dodge chance by 5%.

# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.

# Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 seconds.

# Deflection - 5/5 points
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.

# Precision - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.

# Riposte - 1/1 point
A strike that becomes active after parrying an opponent's attack. This attack deals 150% weapon damage and disarms the target for 6 seconds.

# Improved Kick - 2/2 points
Gives your Kick ability a 100% chance to silence the target for 2 seconds.

# Dual Wield Specialization - 1/5 point
Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 10%.

# Blade Flurry - 1/1 point
Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 seconds.

# Sword Specialization - 5/5 points
Gives you a 6% chance to get an extra attack after dealing damage with your Sword.

# Aggression - 3/3 points
Increases the damage of your Sinister Strike and Eviscerate abilities by 6%.

# Adrenaline Rush - 1/1 point
Increases your Energy regeneration rate by 100% for 15 seconds.


Subtlety Talents (0 points)

# None



Final note:

The 5/5 sword spec could honestly be put into any weapon spec, not putting it in daggers might weaken my BS, but then again I don't plan to use it often.

As for the 3/5 Lethality... well honestly I strangely am having a hard time placing all of my points. I actually, uh kinda find I have an excesses. Basically after I put 2 into a weapon spec (or anything else in the Combat Tree) that allows me to grab Adrenaline Rush, and then I just ditched the 3 into lethality because if I am going to SS (which I will have to do so) I might as well make it count for a little more.

Nox, can I ask where you posted your build? (As I go to check this thread...)

[Nox]

I don't think I have a current build posted, I have about 8 pts in flux right now as I waffle in and out of a weapon spec, kick and imp gouge.

[Miragul]

If I were going dual swords I would choose something more along these lines...

Assassination Talents (19 points)


Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.


Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.


Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.


Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.


Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.


Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.




Combat Talents (32 points)


Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.


Lightning Reflexes - 5/5 points
Increases your Dodge chance by 5%.


Precision - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.


Deflection - 5/5 points
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.


Dual Wield Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 50%.


Sword Specialization - 5/5 points
Gives you a 6% chance to get an extra attack after dealing damage with your Sword.


Blade Flurry - 1/1 point
Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 seconds.


Aggression - 3/3 points
Increases the damage of your Sinister Strike and Eviscerate abilities by 6%.


Adrenaline Rush - 1/1 point
Increases your Energy regeneration rate by 100% for 15 seconds.




Subtlety Talents (0 points)


None


I'm a firm believer that 5/5 Lethality has a place in any Rogue build.

[rjah]

Well Nox, I think I finally came to admit that I am addicted to daggers, so this will probably be my final. It is easy enough to swap out the 5 points in dagger spec for anything else. IMO what finally sold me on them (again) was their blending with adrenaline rush. If you wanted to you could drop a BS each tick of adrenaline rush... Since BS is dagger based I must assume that dagger crit% affects it, which would give me another 5% crit on them... and I am stacking crit % gear (should have over 30% I am hoping).

So I dunno if this will help you make your choices on what talents etc, but uhhh here it is?

Assassination Talents (14 points)

Malice - 5/5 points
Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Murder - 2/2 points
Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point


Combat Talents (37 points)

Lightning Reflexes - 5/5 points
Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Improved Gouge - 2/3 points
Deflection - 5/5 points
Precision - 5/5 points
Improved Backstab - 3/3 points
Improved Evasion - 2/2 points
Riposte - 1/1 point
Improved Kick - 2/2 points
Dagger Specialization - 5/5 points
Blade Flurry - 1/1 point
Aggression - 3/3 points
Adrenaline Rush - 1/1 point

Subtlety Talents (0 points)

None

You know why what points are where, so uhm, no explanations nessecary. Enjoy.

[Palmen]

Miragul i would love to see your talent spec ^^, is ther any chans that you would post it here (or is it posted somwher else?)?

[Miragul]

Accidental double post. Feel free to delete this one.

[Miragul]

Yeah I don't mind posting it. The last two extra points are kind of a toss up with me as I really haven't been able to find a solid place for them yet, but here is what I'm currently using.


Assassination Talents (30 points)


Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.


Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.


Remorseless Attacks - 2/5 points
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 16% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.


Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.


Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.


Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.


Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.


Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.


Improved Kidney Shot - 3/3 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Kidney Shot ability by 5 seconds.


Seal Fate - 5/5 points
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.




Combat Talents (21 points)


Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.


Lightning Reflexes - 5/5 points
Increases your Dodge chance by 5%.


Improved Backstab - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.


Precision - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.


Dagger Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to get a critical strike with Daggers by 5%.


Blade Flurry - 1/1 point
Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 seconds.




Subtlety Talents (0 points)


None




The whole premise behind my build is to keep my target stunned as much as possible and to build CPs quickly by using every Crit% increase talent and Seal Fate. Backstab crits with a minimum of 4/5 Seal Fate builds CPs faster than anything I have seen to date (this will change one day when they fix the SF bug). Adrenaline Rush may rival it by using SS rapid fire, but I have yet to test that out since I am a firm believer in daggers. AR is only useable if it is up though. SF works on every skill that crit strikes and has a chance to add a combo point.

In this example I went ahead and put another point into SF bringing it to 5/5 and tossed the last point into Flurry. I can't say that I'm real happy with Flurry but there aren't many places to put the extra few points. The only other alternatives I would really consider is putting the last two points in Camo and leave SF at 4/5 or using them both in dual wield spec (not really worth it). Once BGs are out I will most likely be putting them in Camo.

There it is. I'm still trying to tweak it some, but overall I am pleased with this build. The only thing I really miss is Camo.

[Nox]

Well Nox, I think I finally came to admit that I am addicted to daggers, so this will probably be my final.

Yes, I think we are very likeminded on this one.

The only point of divergance I think is that I put a sword in offhand and swap in for ss when I can chain ss for effect, and I might skip on dagger crit %

The reason dagger crit % might be worthwhile while the other weapon abilities aren't IMO is that dagger crit is cumulative and builds crit % for all other situations when used with the dagger. 5% bonus crit from daggers brings my backstab crit % to something like 60%.

The other abilities are being applied to slow weapons, so there are fewer chances in a given fight for them to trigger.

[rjah]

The reason dagger crit % might be worthwhile while the other weapon abilities aren't IMO is that dagger crit is cumulative and builds crit % for all other situations when used with the dagger. 5% bonus crit from daggers brings my backstab crit % to something like 60%.

The other abilities are being applied to slow weapons, so there are fewer chances in a given fight for them to trigger.

That was my reasoning for going for that particular talent. Aside from that I could honeslty not justify putting the points anwhere else really.

Edit: Might I ask what dagger/sword combo you are planning for? (assuming you don't find epics)

[Nox]

The reason dagger crit % might be worthwhile while the other weapon abilities aren't IMO is that dagger crit is cumulative and builds crit % for all other situations when used with the dagger. 5% bonus crit from daggers brings my backstab crit % to something like 60%.

The other abilities are being applied to slow weapons, so there are fewer chances in a given fight for them to trigger.

That was my reasoning for going for that particular talent. Aside from that I could honeslty not justify putting the points anwhere else really.

Edit: Might I ask what dagger/sword combo you are planning for? (assuming you don't find epics)

Well at my current level I have gut ripper in main hand, and am getting thrash blade for offhand . That 80 top end damage really counts.

I'm still looking for what comes after.

[rjah]

I have a Barman shanker in my main right now, 95 top end, 2.0 swing speed. I am still unsure what I want for my offhand for final though. (I am open to replacing the barman, but I am not in a hurry to do so)

I have been pondering farming Finkle's Skinner for my offhand, but that would leave me with 2 daggers. Mayhap I will just stock a sword in my inv for SS spam, bleah.

[Kissyface]

Anyone have comments as to why nobody gets premed?

[Kandrar]

I know you're probably sick of seeing all these build. But here's mine;

Assassination Talents (25 points)


Remorseless Attacks - 5/5 points
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 40% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.


Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.


Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.


Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.


Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.


Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.


Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.


Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.



Combat Talents (2 points)


Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.



Subtlety Talents (23 points)


Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.


Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.


Improved Ambush - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 40%.


Ghostly Strike - 1/1 point
A strike that deals 125% weapon damage and increases your chance to dodge by 15% for 7 seconds. Awards 1 combo point.


Initiative - 3/5 points
Gives you a 45% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.


Improved Sap - 3/3 points
Adds a 90% chance to return to stealth mode after using your Sap ability.


Improved Cheap Shot - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Cheap Shot ability by 20.


Preparation - 1/1 point
When activated, this ability immediately finishes the cooldown on your other Rogue abilities.


While it might not be the best, I think it'll be the one I'll have most fun with. Just not sure about Ghostly Strike - is it even worth putting 1 point into?

I'd also like general comments on my build, thanks.

[Andaren]

Anyone have comments as to why nobody gets premed?

Pretty sure it is because to get 31 points in subtlety you have to get a lot of pretty crappy pvp skills... in group pvp you are really only going to get maybe 1 opener off before you are dotted and marked. There's much better places to spend 31 points.

[Miragul]

Kandrar: Ghostly Strike is pretty worthless in my opinion after testing just about every build available to a Rogue. That talent point would be better served just about anywhere.

Maybe put it into MoD or something.

[Vepo]

I've been using 21/8/22 build since taking part in the US open beta and I'm loving it. Never lost any pvp fights yet and I'm able to take out creatures/npcs that are 3 levels highers then me :)

[Synj]

I'd have to say the most appealing build has to be the combat using daggers hybrid. One thing I'm curious about is, is Imp Gouge worth getting, even for 1vs1 it seems the 1.5 seconds helps a little bit, not sure if it helps enough to warrant 3 talent points though. In group pvp I guess gouge isn't as important as someone is probably going to break with damage.

Anyone have any feedback on this?

[Edit/typos]

[South]

With the release of WOW in Europe I'm looking for a PVE build that fits both solo PVE grinding and PVE in instances. I've read a lot of forums but I haven't found anything convincing.

While leveling you won't find extremly good daggers (you can but it's easier to find a good sword or a mace). I think that maybe a combat/assa build would be better (it helps a lot while grinding). What do you think?

Thank you!

PD: At 60 for PVP I'd like to get 30-8-13 or maybe 21-8-22 (not sure :x).

[Miragul]

I'd have to say the most appealing build has to be the combat using daggers hybrid. One thing I'm curious about is, is Imp Gouge worth getting, even for 1vs1 it seems the 1.5 seconds helps a little bit, not sure if it helps enough to warrant 3 talent points though. In group pvp I guess gouge isn't as important as someone is probably going to break with damage.

Anyone have any feedback on this?

[Edit/typos]

I doubt I will ever use Imp Gouge. The points are better spent elsewhere.