Current Rogue Builds (updated 12/12/04)

[Deker]

With all this chat bout Seal of Fate being bugged, maybe waiting to dump points into it last would be a better bet as far as being effective in the field of battle........and is there a any ETA on the fix?


Also ater watching video im curious what Daggers you where using....your lvl and the mobs lvl.....Tnx

[Ausn]

Hey,

U can find a couple of Threads discussing the Topic
"Daggers or Swords for Rogue" ;
They always say:

- for a stealth rogue u need daggers.
- if u plan to fight in front of mobs/players than u will use ss and evi. Better Swords=more damage

why dont use both?
There is a easy way to switch swords and daggers by using makros.
Isn't that the best way? U can use your daggers for those skills who need daggers but for ss and evi u can use high damage swords.

Please give me arguments why this shouldn't be the best way to play a Rogue.

Sorry for my english I'm "just German" and thats my school english :)

[South]

Hey,

U can find a couple of Threads discussing the Topic
"Daggers or Swords for Rogue" ;
They always say:

- for a stealth rogue u need daggers.
- if u plan to fight in front of mobs/players than u will use ss and evi. Better Swords=more damage

why dont use both?
There is a easy way to switch swords and daggers by using makros.
Isn't that the best way? U can use your daggers for those skills who need daggers but for ss and evi u can use high damage swords.

Please give me arguments why this shouldn't be the best way to play a Rogue.

Sorry for my english I'm "just German" and thats my school english :)

This is the best way to play a rogue. BUT you can't have both builds so you should be using the majority of time the skills that fit with your build. And you don't have 300 energy, to open with ambush, spam SS, gouge and BS for a evis :X So.. you must choose a build. All been said, beeing a combat rogue doesnt mean you can't BS or Ambush sometimes..

[Synj]

Ok, just off the top of your head. If you have say a barman shanker, what will be the difference in dmg between your backstabs if you have opportunity vs. not having opportunity. Is there a huge change or barely any change at all?

[Tarmon Gaiden]

Kintoun,

You've been trying the hybrid build out I believe...what's your feelings about it so far? I am striving to go 30/8/13 but am considering 30/21/0. I feel like the latter could be a better battleground build...any thoughts on that?

TG

[UFTimmy]

Ok, just off the top of your head. If you have say a barman shanker, what will be the difference in dmg between your backstabs if you have opportunity vs. not having opportunity. Is there a huge change or barely any change at all?

Opportunity talent isn't great. But it does allow you to get improved ambush, which is.

[$tormbringer]

thinking of using this build, but i dunno if it works well in pvp... (its for pvp only so no remorseless ;) )



Assassination Talents (16 points)

# Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.
# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.
# Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.
# Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.



Combat Talents (25 points)
# Lightning Reflexes - 5/5 points
Increases your Dodge chance by 5%.
# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.
# Precision - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.
# Deflection - 5/5 points
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.
# Dual Wield Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 50%.
# Improved Kick - 2/2 points
Gives your Kick ability a 100% chance to silence the target for 2 seconds.
# Blade Flurry - 1/1 point
Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 seconds.



Subtlety Talents (10 points)
# Master of Deception - 5/5 points
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 4)
# Elusiveness - 5/5 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Evasion, Vanish, and Blind abilities by 1.3 minutes.



what ya guys think bout it?... could it work?.. could it work well? ^^ didnt got the time to test it coz all the beta were over b4 i reached lvl 60 :O

[Watzit2ya]

I would suggest a different talent build, your missing just about all of the good points of any rogue build. Id recomend taking a look at many of the previous pages and reading up on what your missing. While you'll probably make it though PvE fine with that build, your still goin to lvl slower than what a good rogue's potential has. In PvP with that spec your just a free kill.

Even something as basic as a 31/20 build would suit you untill you get a feel for what you want a little better.

[skizzi1234]

For rogues, my view is they are ment to output as much DMG as fast as they can. Also i dont think rogue is a group pvp class. Well first i have a 46 rogue soon to be 47 and i made my rogue for 1 on 1 pvp maybe 1 on 2 but i just wanted someone to explain to me why some rogues use duel hammers or duel swords. i mean most of the best abiltys rogues get need daggers.
2nd, when to cheap shot and when to ambush... i have my rogue set up so when i kill a mob i get 100% chance on my next ambush... or close to 100%.
3rd when i see rogues pvp why do they let there target unstuned? i mean between cheap shot and kidney shot... i mean when i pvp i start out with a cheap shot then back stab... then try and get a kidney shot off.... after that i vanish and cheap shot them again then kidney shot again. by that time they are mostly dead and if not i use a tea and get my engery to 100 and re start the fight... if they get close to having me dead i use blind and then bandage myself.... i useally dont get beat in pvp 1 on 1 but if anyone got any pointers on group pvp i would liek to hear about it....

thanks

Rubberneck

[mr.toker]

U bandage urself? isnt that like using a potion? prety cheap if u ask me i would never accept it... just like polying someone as a mage and sitting down to eat and drink...

sure i can have a big ass potion in my bag and take buffs from every single class in the game but personally i think thats not right. Its about skills, talents and tactics for your class.

[Lustt]

all is fair in love and war.

id bandage given the oppurtunity, i think nearly everyone would.

[Palmen]

U bandage urself? isnt that like using a potion? prety cheap if u ask me i would never accept it... just like polying someone as a mage and sitting down to eat and drink...

sure i can have a big ass potion in my bag and take buffs from every single class in the game but personally i think thats not right. Its about skills, talents and tactics for your class.

Try saying that to the next hord/alliance that is ganking you.

[l-c]

U bandage urself? isnt that like using a potion? prety cheap if u ask me i would never accept it... just like polying someone as a mage and sitting down to eat and drink...

sure i can have a big ass potion in my bag and take buffs from every single class in the game but personally i think thats not right. Its about skills, talents and tactics for your class.

you're a stupid nigger

[Watzit2ya]

Yea, that was a bit inappropriate...

If you dont agree with his opinion there is 100 different ways to say it w/o making yourself look like a 12 year old, but you picked just about the only way that would make people look at your post and say " Damn that kid must have skipped school or something today "

[l-c]

what the fuck?

Do you play with the profanity filter on you fucking pussy

[Watzit2ya]

Im sure middle school is rough and everything, but why the anger?

[Malifik]

Alrighty, well, getting back onto subject...

I'm torn between the PvP hybrid build and the traditional 30/8/13 build. I'm really liking the hybrid build, and as Kintoun says, I find myself wanting that crit ambush and using CB right off the bat to guarantee I have that explosive starter. Also, the fact that the crit % from dagger spec stacks with the other rogue abilities is gravy.

However, when BG comes (i'm sure all of you have heard threads start this way) I find myself wanting that 15% extra move speed from Camo, and also the fact that you will be encountering opponents frequently and not having that CB up for that ambush will hurt. The camo part is huge to me, I played DAoC and played a Shadowblade and all stealthers got the realm ability that lets you move faster while stealthed, simply because scouting out enemy positions and getting into place fast was very important and a slow stealther was either a dead stealther or a stealther that missed combat :wink:

Also, most opponents with half a brain will be using weapon chain, so your riposte talent basically becomes null. (However I see tons of rogues/warriors/pallies without weapon chain on so I could be wrong).

Basically, my question is do you guys think that going down the combat tree and getting that dagger spec and BF is worth losing IMP ambush and Camo?

[l-c]

Im sure middle school is rough and everything, but why the anger?

wow you're cool you can block all insults by saying everyone is in middle school and you're a mature adult.

fucking dork

[Asgard]

hey kintoun.

i´m really interested in your dagger crit build.
but like most (surely not all) european players, you could consider me as a noob.

so, what i am up to is, that i just do not know in which order i would spend my talentpoints for this build.

may be you could give us noobs a hint on a usefull order to spent our points.

thank you so far and greetings from germany,

Asgard

[Tarmon Gaiden]

Malifik,

It looks like you traded Vigor for a point in Improved Ambush...do you feel like it was worth it? I am using the same talent right now and love it, hard to imagine playing a rogue another way. Thanks!

TG

[skizzi1234]

does anyone use slice and dice? and if so why? i dont really think its that good... also for rogues off hand wepons that are slower or faster whats better? and why?

[skizzi1234]

does anyone use slice and dice? and if so why? i dont really think its that good... also for rogues off hand wepons that are slower or faster whats better? and why?

[Malifik]

Malifik,

It looks like you traded Vigor for a point in Improved Ambush...do you feel like it was worth it? I am using the same talent right now and love it, hard to imagine playing a rogue another way. Thanks!

TG

Actually that was a typo, I meant 30/8/13...I had just finished reading a thread on a 31/8/12 build when I wrote that, so I guess my head was in other places, hehe.

[l-c]

does anyone use slice and dice? and if so why? i dont really think its that good... also for rogues off hand wepons that are slower or faster whats better? and why?

hey you posted this twice you fuck head
FUCK HEAD!

[Malifik]

does anyone use slice and dice? and if so why? i dont really think its that good... also for rogues off hand wepons that are slower or faster whats better? and why?

For off-hand, the faster the weapon the better. The faster weapon speed will allow you to apply poisons more often with your off-hand.

[framboise]

Hi
I'm pretty new to rogue class.
I m curently aiming at this template for grinding :



Combat Mastery (21)

Improved Sinister Strike - Rank 2/2
Lightning Reflexes - Rank 3/5
Deflection - Rank 5/5
Precision - Rank 5/5
Riposte - Rank 1/1
Dual Wield Specialization - Rank 4/5
Blade Flurry - Rank 1/1

Assassination Mastery (30)

Improved Eviscerate - Rank 3/3
Remorseless Attacks - Rank 5/5
Malice - Rank 5/5
Ruthlessness - Rank 3/3
Murder - Rank 2/2
Relentless Strikes - Rank 1/1
Lethality - Rank 5/5
Cold Blood - Rank 1/1
Seal Fate - Rank 5/5


I'm lvl 20 At the moment. I use the best top End damage weapon i can find in my main hand and the fastest in my second

So as a combat rogue in wich talent should i focus from 10-35 (mid lvl ) then to lvl 60 (mid to high lvl)

I use to duo a lot with a priest so i use to be a light tank
Tx for this great thread btw

[South]

To all rogues in general. What do you think about this guide:
http://strategy.worldofwar.net/news.php?id=41

It's the Osiris guide v2.0

[l-c]

To all rogues in general. What do you think about this guide:
http://strategy.worldofwar.net/news.php?id=41

It's the Osiris guide v2.0
Its everything we already knew plus or minus some stuff. It gives an overall review of the class.

[lach]

Slice and dice and blade flurry stack, so if you have them both up that is a 50% increase in your attack speed, and two targets. It is EXTREMELY helpful on a boss mob situation where debuffs slots cant be taken up with rupture or other dot's as well as for a prolonged fight its not a blow your whole load in one shot deal.

[Braffe]

Currently level 34, and up till now I've played with my points not planning much, so going to respec.

Tryin to find a spec to get me to level 41, then possibly respec again for something different like, Improved SS, and Seal Fate,...or another build that I can put my new points into.

Thinkin about this...

Subtlety Mastery
Camouflage Rank 5
Opportunity Rank 5
Initiative Rank 5
Improved Ambush Rank 3
Subtlety Total: 18

Combat Mastery
Improved Sinister Strike Rank 2
Combat Total: 2

Assassination Mastery
Malice Rank 5
Assassination Total: 5

Total Points Spent: 25
Level Required: 34

My other ideas were...

Skip Initiative, for Remorseless Attack.
--or--
Skip Subetly all together and work towards Seal Fate now.


Any thoughts are greatly welcomed.

Thanks

--Braffe

[hellion]

i was wondering on the stealther build ... why go improved rupture instead of 5 in initiative?

my vision of a dagger critter stealther is backstab backstab death ... quick kills. i don't want to wait 14 seconds for people to die ...

someone enlighten me.

[badz]

that video of a rogue using dagger is awesome, colud someone tell me which build was used in that video, it seemed as though it could take the damage fairly well but deal out damage like a mofo.

[Sawyer]

I imagine he is using the 30/8/13 build, but any level 60 rogue can do that to yetis that are 10-15 levels below him as those were.

[Lustt]

ok, from what i can remember from watching the video, there not 15 levels below him at all, if i recall correctly it was a video to show leveling, as well the fact remorseless proc's of the kills.

Its the yeti ave in feralas as well if i remember rightly. All this information is in previous posts, please make the effort to read it.

[UFTimmy]

I imagine he is using the 30/8/13 build, but any level 60 rogue can do that to yetis that are 10-15 levels below him as those were.

He was level 44 or 45, fighting 41ish Yetis if I remember correctly.

Nice try, though.

[badz]

maybe i cant see wellor the vid was fuzzy , but how come it looked like they were 65, ahaha, no wonder he was taking them down so ez... hehe thx guys

[tyrannus]

at level 38 I'm using a Sword of Omen and a TIgerbane, both not enchanted. I use a switch that changes my Sword of oMen to my mainhand after an ambush.

Assassination Talents (14 points)

# Remorseless Attacks - 2/5 points
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 16% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.

# Improved Eviscerate - 2/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 10%.

# Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

# Murder - 1/2 point
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 3%.

# Lethality - 4/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 24%.



Combat Talents (2 points)

# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.



Subtlety Talents (13 points)

# Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

# Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.

# Improved Ambush - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 40%.

that's my current build, I wanted to get Lethality ASAP.

Was wondering, though, WHEN should I upgrade my dagger? Having difficulty saving up for my mount, was thinkign about just farming the Basalisks in Shimmering Flats, so I'm not sure about what I need to do.

[qurbitz]

Hello. I am currently at level 33 with my UD Rogue on EU and I was thinking of using the dual dagger crit-build. However the date is a little old and I guess a few changes has been made. Could someone please suggest a fine dual dagger crit-build that is up-to-date, or for that matter post a build that is better if the dual daggers has been nerfed and also what talents to use while leveling and then what to switch to when final. :) Thank you in advance. /Muggen

(Would be more then happy if the author of this thread could reply.)

Thank you!

[Vepo]

My dagger/dagger build is 21/8/22

[hellion]

My dagger/dagger build is 21/8/22

did you take 5 initiative or 2 init/3 imp rupture.

this is my hardest decision atm ;/

[Malifik]

at level 38 I'm using a Sword of Omen and a TIgerbane, both not enchanted. I use a switch that changes my Sword of oMen to my mainhand after an ambush.

Assassination Talents (14 points)

# Remorseless Attacks - 2/5 points
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 16% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.

# Improved Eviscerate - 2/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 10%.

# Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

# Murder - 1/2 point
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 3%.

# Lethality - 4/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 24%.



Combat Talents (2 points)

# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.



Subtlety Talents (13 points)

# Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

# Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.

# Improved Ambush - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 40%.

that's my current build, I wanted to get Lethality ASAP.

Was wondering, though, WHEN should I upgrade my dagger? Having difficulty saving up for my mount, was thinkign about just farming the Basalisks in Shimmering Flats, so I'm not sure about what I need to do.

I suggest maxing out your Remoresless talent. If you're getting it, don't go halfway and only get 2 out of 5 (well, sorta of half way).

As for the mount deal, I didn't get my mount till I was 42 on my first char. I had around 45 gold when I hit 40 and then farmed the venture co. (the ones around lvls 40-42) in STV. The broken electrolanterns they drop sell for some serious cash to vendors. Also, you should be grinding on humanoids whenever u do your grinding, thus getting lots of silk/mageweave drops. Turn those into bandages before you sell to vendor, a stack of Heavy Silk Bandages sells for 80s to a vendor. Or you could just try to sell on AH, but I was lazy, so sue me :P

[Malifik]

My dagger/dagger build is 21/8/22

did you take 5 initiative or 2 init/3 imp rupture.

this is my hardest decision atm ;/

I would highly recommend the 5/5 in Initiative over the Imp rupture. I only use rupture against other rogues and plate classes. (Against rogues to keep them from vanishing/re-stealthing). You will never be using rupture on cloth wearing classes, and our main objective in PvP is to take out the softies, so why get a talent that won't help you in your main objective (IMO of course :wink: )?

[hellion]

at level 38 I'm using a Sword of Omen and a TIgerbane, both not enchanted. I use a switch that changes my Sword of oMen to my mainhand after an ambush.

Assassination Talents (14 points)

# Remorseless Attacks - 2/5 points
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 16% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.

# Improved Eviscerate - 2/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 10%.

# Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

# Murder - 1/2 point
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 3%.

# Lethality - 4/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 24%.



Combat Talents (2 points)

# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.



Subtlety Talents (13 points)

# Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

# Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.

# Improved Ambush - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 40%.

that's my current build, I wanted to get Lethality ASAP.

Was wondering, though, WHEN should I upgrade my dagger? Having difficulty saving up for my mount, was thinkign about just farming the Basalisks in Shimmering Flats, so I'm not sure about what I need to do.

I suggest maxing out your Remoresless talent. If you're getting it, don't go halfway and only get 2 out of 5 (well, sorta of half way).

As for the mount deal, I didn't get my mount till I was 42 on my first char. I had around 45 gold when I hit 40 and then farmed the venture co. (the ones around lvls 40-42) in STV. The broken electrolanterns they drop sell for some serious cash to vendors. Also, you should be grinding on humanoids whenever u do your grinding, thus getting lots of silk/mageweave drops. Turn those into bandages before you sell to vendor, a stack of Heavy Silk Bandages sells for 80s to a vendor. Or you could just try to sell on AH, but I was lazy, so sue me :P

blizzard nerfed the STV lantern drops. They sell for shit now.

[hellion]

On another note, can anyone comment on this build - I plan on using sword/mace in mainhand for ss damage but still have nice utility. I didn't take seal fate because i don't plan on ss criting all that often although i could be wrong. Also I would especially like comments on Setup. The build :

Assassination Talents (21 points)

Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points

Malice - 5/5 points

Murder - 2/2 points

Ruthlessness - 3/3 points

Relentless Strikes - 1/1 points

Lethality - 5/5 points

Improved Expose Armor - 1/3 points

Cold Blood - 1/1 points


Combat Talents (2 points)

Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points


Subtlety Talents (28 points)

Camouflage - 5/5 points

Master of Deception - 5/5 points

Ghostly Strike - 1/1 points

Initiative - 5/5 points

Improved Rupture - 3/3 points

Improved Sap - 3/3 points

Improved Cheap Shot - 2/2 points

Preparation - 1/1 points

Setup - 3/3 points

[Braffe]

Had no reply to my question, but may help others if they were stuck as well.

I ended up going, at level 37 now, with this spec.


Subtlety Mastery
Camouflage Rank 5
Opportunity Rank 5
Improved Ambush Rank 3
Subtlety Total: 13

Combat Mastery
Improved Sinister Strike Rank 2
Combat Total: 2

Assassination Mastery
Remorseless Attacks Rank 5
Malice Rank 5
Lethality Rank 3
Assassination Total: 13

Total
Total Points Spent: 28
Level Required: 37

My decision to go with Remorseless instead of initiative was basic math. At my level, inviscerate only increases by 54 damage a CP. My ambushes, on crits, were doing 400-500 damage, 30% of that is another 120 damage at the least. At the time i was fighting level 34-36, a few 37's, so i thought it was just the level differences. Later though, after getting 3 points in Lethality, I went to try things out my own level. I still end up ambushing for 500+ on targets up to level 39. So I'm quite pleased.

Leveling much faster with this build, remorseless keeps you on your toes, normally after a kill without the talent I just wander aimlessly for another kill, but now, I watch that timer like a hawk and try never letting it run out. Keeps things interesting :)


--Braffe

[UFTimmy]

Also, you should be grinding on humanoids whenever u do your grinding, thus getting lots of silk/mageweave drops. Turn those into bandages before you sell to vendor, a stack of Heavy Silk Bandages sells for 80s to a vendor. Or you could just try to sell on AH, but I was lazy, so sue me :P

40 Silk would sell for 1.1 gold on my server.

[tyrannus]

since they nerfed the lantern drops, where would be a good palce to go? basalisks in Shimmering Flats aren't giving all that good XP anymore at 38.

[hellion]

since they nerfed the lantern drops, where would be a good palce to go? basalisks in Shimmering Flats aren't giving all that good XP anymore at 38.

try stv trolls or kurzen .. but ganking distracts so w/e

[Sawyer]

He was level 44 or 45, fighting 41ish Yetis if I remember correctly.

Nice try, though.

If you watch the video again you will notice they are the level 45 yeti's in Feralas and they are grey to him so he is at least 57.

Nice try, though.

[UFTimmy]

Pictures are worth a thousands words. This should QUICKLY put any swords vs dagger argument to rest for PVE:

http://kintoun.nurfed.com/Rouges_have_it_coming.avi

Lev 48 killing lev 44-46 yetis. And I was doing this long before 48, only recently made the vid.

Bttt.

This is the post from the man who made the video himself. The Yetis clearly aren't gray, as I can see the color myself.

[skizzi1234]

He was level 44 or 45, fighting 41ish Yetis if I remember correctly.

Nice try, though.

If you watch the video again you will notice they are the level 45 yeti's in Feralas and they are grey to him so he is at least 57.

Nice try, though.


if they are grey how is he getting xp?

[UFTimmy]

if they are grey how is he getting xp?

Sawyer's posted twice and so far isn't off to a good start :(

[skizzi1234]

Qucik question whats better for a combat rogue, sword or mace? Also is sword spec bugged?

also whast better adrenaline rush or seal fate? right now my build is

Improved Sinister Strike Rank 2
Lightning Reflexes Rank 3
Deflection Rank 5
Precision Rank 5
Riposte Rank 1
Improved Kick Rank 2
Dual Wield Specialization Rank 5
Blade Flurry Rank 1

Combat Total: 24

Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate Rank 3
Malice Rank 5
Ruthlessness Rank 3
Relentless Strikes Rank 1
Lethality Rank 5

Assassination Total: 17

Total
Total Points Spent: 41
Level Required: 50

any advice is welcome
Thanks

[phoboss]

ok i've not read the whole thread, so i'm really sry if this has been postet already.
so i was playing around with some addons, and found stanceset (http://www.curse-gaming.com/mod.php?addid=151).
so i dont know, if this is really legit, or if it maybe gets banned soon, but i was thinking of a build using the advantage of this addon...
i really want to hear any opinion u have about this, so plz post it.

so here's the build:

Subtlety Mastery
Camouflage Rank 5
Opportunity Rank 5
Initiative Rank 5
Improved Ambush Rank 3
Subtlety Total: 18

Combat Mastery
Improved Sinister Strike Rank 2
Combat Total: 2

Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate Rank 3
Remorseless Attacks Rank 5
Malice Rank 5
Ruthlessness Rank 3
Murder Rank 2
Relentless Strikes Rank 1
Lethality Rank 5
Cold Blood Rank 1
Seal Fate Rank 5
Vigor Rank 1 (maybe instead of vigor, ghostly strike??)
Assassination Total: 31

so here's what i was thinking about:
u open with ambush and if it crits, wich it usually should, u have 3 cpts, then as far as i know, (plz correct me if i'm wrong), initiative and seal fate stack. now stanceset changes ur mainhand weapon from dagger to sword, and u give him a SS (or GS), if u crit again u have 5 cpts now and can go of with a evis (or do another SS).
thats about it i think.
as weapons i thought about a really slow dagger, but with high max dmg, for the ambush, and for the rest some med speed swords like 2.2 -2.6 or so.
is the more normal dmg and the more SS dmg even worth the switching with the addon?
would this work? how do u think about my idea?
thx for the answeres :)

bye phoboss

[UFTimmy]

ok i've not read the whole thread, so i'm really sry if this has been postet already.
so i was playing around with some addons, and found stanceset (http://www.curse-gaming.com/mod.php?addid=151).
so i dont know, if this is really legit, or if it maybe gets banned soon, but i was thinking of a build using the advantage of this addon...
i really want to hear any opinion u have about this, so plz post it.


It's been done before, with other add ons that switch weapons for you.

It's great for PvE, but for PvP it's not needed. In PvP you can pretty much always backstab, and backstab >>> SS.

You don't have improved backstab in your build. In PvP you will want it.

[phoboss]

thats true, BUT i have a really high chance to add 3 cpts with my ambush.
couldn't that be kinda cool? :)

[UFTimmy]

thats true, BUT i have a really high chance to add 3 cpts with my ambush.
couldn't that be kinda cool? :)

Absolutely. But for PvP you will want to drop other talents to get improved backstab. The improved chance to crit will help add tons of combo points. One of Kintoun's builds, probably the dagger crit, is what you're looking for. I haven't looked them over in a while.

[skizzi1234]

See every one says crits are big with back stab.... i crit SS now for about 450ish and i can be anywhere around my target... and for pvp BS and Ambush are only good as first strikes cause u cant ambush again and BS takes to much engery

[UFTimmy]

See every one says crits are big with back stab.... i crit SS now for about 450ish and i can be anywhere around my target... and for pvp BS and Ambush are only good as first strikes cause u cant ambush again and BS takes to much engery

Backstab does more damage per energy than SS, and is more likely to crit. If you don't believe me, that's fine. But then why are you asking for advice if you're just going to say they're wrong?

[skizzi1234]

i never said u were "wrong" but i respeced from a crit rogue to combat and i do so much more dmg now then before.... and i cant BS with a sword or else i am sure i would do hella dmg on my BS but doggers dont put out as much dmg as swords... they are made for dps withc from what i understand is great for a offhand...

And i am trying to get new ideas and see how people look at rogues.. i mean i am not dumb when it comes to them... but i like to see what people think

[UFTimmy]

i never said u were "wrong" but i respeced from a crit rogue to combat and i do so much more dmg now then before.... and i cant BS with a sword or else i am sure i would do hella dmg on my BS but doggers dont put out as much dmg as swords... they are made for dps withc from what i understand is great for a offhand...

And i am trying to get new ideas and see how people look at rogues.. i mean i am not dumb when it comes to them... but i like to see what people think

Are you talking PvP or PvE? In PvE backstab isn't useful. But in PvP it's the best way to go. The damage is insane compared to SS, plus the ability to crit more often.

I'm a combat Rogue, too. I follow Ratama's build from the levelling thread. But I recognize that BS is better than SS in PvP.

[komaf]

I have seen a number of pure combat specced rogues (assassination to CB with Combat to adren rush and no sub or a few pts in camo) as well as a number of stun lock types with heavy sub.

I love what I'm seeing with combat rogues-especially in all out pvp chaotic scrambles. I love what I'm seeing with stun lock because guys on the sidelines as well as runners are just disintigrating from sight (mages, priests, rogues, whatever you are you are going to die 75+% of the time at the end of a stun lock CB evisc CB prep chain-maybe less for warriors & pallies :evil: ).

So in my observations what I see is heavy long term dps light combat + mace/sword tanks tearing up the enemy out of stealth and just spamming SS+ BF etc. and people are dropping dead-fast-regardless of an f.o.t.m. template (flavor of the month).

The stun rogues with heavy stealth imp sap prep etc are staying out of the aoe/dot spam taking out the weaker softer targets on the sidelines or obliterating rogues who are attempting to get around the battle from the outside. Question is, where are the backstab folks? Granted I might assume they are CB'ing ambushes wherever, but I'm not seeing them melee/gouge/run around or flip jump and spam a backstab in the middle of pvp conflict. So, is backstab really more for just getting behind pvp/pve targets and just stabbing them with a dagger until the backstab timer is ready> or is it solely for pve period?

I rarely have seen the so called backstab dagger types at my level. Perhaps the primary reason why I have not seen dagger specced rogues (and when I say dagger spec for my own purpose here I'm referring to backstab & ambush) is due to just what's seemingly popular on my server.

Secondarily, daggers, swords, maces- are a pain to come by in the 40+ dps dept, so getting weapons to compliment ANY template is difficult-with possibly daggers being the most difficult to attain in the form of a quality weapon.

Subsequently, if I'm going to break my back digging for a 0.1% world drop Krol blade or a plethora of scholo/strath whatever instances for that one lucky dagger roll, I want to make sure I'm doing it for a viable template. (Naturally any logical rogue with lots of time on his hands should have two top dps daggers, maces, swords, just in the advent of those items being needed as skills are nerfed or changed).

Enough spam. The question is: for those that do get their hands on good 40+ dps daggers-is a template that includes backstab really all that viable for building combo pts? I can fully agree ambush with CB is just fantastic for soft/damaged targets...but again BS seems questionable for gaining efficiently timed CBs.

This is quite the noob question because (a) I have experimented with a backstab template a few levels ago and found myself using SS to gain CB's anyway (b) if damage wasn't the issue it's far faster for me to use hemmorhage (spelling?), or SS if damage is the issue , to build CBs then it is for me to use backstab-or why not mix it up, i.e., (starting from 0 CBs) Hemmorhage/SS/SS/.

Yes the damage should be good from a template backed backstab build if it's spammable like SS...but it seems to be a pain in the rear especially in pvp getting a gouge/BS off on someone who is getting aoe damage anyway and doesn't just stand there for a convenient backstab.

Heck, if it was all about CBs, I'd use Hemm for everything-not just when I come out of cheapshot. Though the damge is sub par to SS etc.

Whew this chatter is boring me it must be hell for you folks-so last thing I'm going to ask....

What in your opinions would be the most damaging therefore fun template for just tearing through guys in a massive pvp conflict. This means..you aren't stealthed, chances are you are dotted or eating aoe's taking random arrow shots and probably have a mark over your head. What template would be best for that? My guess is pure combat specced all the way up to adrenaline rush/'blade flurry with assassination up to say CB?

Seems when the chips are down and the fires of hell are spewing death in your face...combat rogues that have riposte/DW/Heightened reflexes and 5/5 spec in swords/maces/dagger etc are going to do the most damage.

Komaf/Kel Thuzad

[UFTimmy]

I don't disagree with anything you said, really. There aren't many backstab Rogues. But I don't think that's because they're weaker. Many people see how hard backstab is in PvE and don't realize they're much easier to land in PvP.

I'm not a backstab/ambush Rogue. I'm a combat spec (without the combat tree, yet) but I plan on respeccing into one at 60. The big hit from ambush is extremely fun in PvP.

As far as building CPs, well...

1. Ambush. With remorseless and talents you have 100% chance to crit.
3 CPs
2. Regen 20 energy, backstab.
65% of 5 cps (crit), 35% of 4 CPs.
3. Regen 35 energy, evis.

Again, it's all theory craft from me. I've read through this thread and understood the benefits of it. It just doesn't fit my play style.

[skizzi1234]

Are you talking PvP or PvE? In PvE backstab isn't useful. But in PvP it's the best way to go. The damage is insane compared to SS, plus the ability to crit more often.



Well when i BS is a fight PVP first off the target is not going to stand there and take it. and when i was speced for BS and ambush i could do about 800-900 per ambush crit and 400-500 per bs crit now i do SS for 450-500 per crit for less and i dont have to make my way behind the target to do it. i mean i guess it couldbe the wepon i am useing but i can tear threw muti mobs so much faster then with BS and Ambush. i might not hit as fast but when i hit i make it count... i mean like he said above in high level pvp there is so much going on it mist of it uwill not be stealthed and if u are it will not last long...

now PVE ambush rogues are good at killing mobs faster but only one at a time i mean a ambush that drops a mobs health by 1/2 is great then have about 100% to crit again for the next one... i am not saying they are bad they just have a diffrent purpos like u said

2nd there is not really enough good daggers around... and if u try and buy them they are insane prices... so i try and stay away from them... i mean y get a good dps dagger when u can get a high dmg sword or mace?

[UFTimmy]

<< Well when i BS is a fight PVP first off the target is not going to stand there and take it. >>

Yes, they will. It's incredibly easy to backstab someone in PvP. All you have to do is run through them and hit backstab.. Don't even have to face them if you spam it in the middle of them.

Landing a backstab in PvP is not a problem. But it is in PvE, which is why I keep making the distinction.

[Kintoun]

What in your opinions would be the most damaging therefore fun template for just tearing through guys in a massive pvp conflict. This means..you aren't stealthed, chances are you are dotted or eating aoe's taking random arrow shots and probably have a mark over your head. What template would be best for that?
Komaf/Kel Thuzad
This is the exact question that I cannot answer right now. I do do theorycraft, but I DO NOT make builds based soley upon theorcraft! Battlegrouds is what PVP was made for. Noone right now knows how that will play out. The closest you can get is organized (BOTH sides) town raids, but even then Battlegrounds won't just be "another town raid".

So for the time being all my builds do not consider Battlegrounds yet. This is also the reason I don't care to come in and answer too many posts anymore. But once Battlegrounds do come out, you can be sure that I will edit/post which build I think is best for Battlegrounds; aka the build all rogues should aspire to use come 60.

EDIT: Since I haven't posted here in some time, heres some food for thought.... Players cannot dodge block or parry when hit from behind. This includes specials and normal melee attacks. Parry and dodge makes up a HUGE amount of dmg mitigation for ANY class. So even SS rogues should be trying to get behind their targets otherwise they're just plain lazy.

[hellion]

wow kin nice tip

[DronZul]

Hi, first of all i think you made some awesome builds for rogues! I am the grinding type, so i respecced to your PvE build. I swithed to 2x 20 DPS daggers and went out to kill some Venture co. Geologists at lake Nazfereti (I am level 34 and i heard that would be a good grinding spot). anyway i when i came over and started to stealth/ambush and gouge/backstab them, i realized that my damage without any special attack was on 2-10!! Withswords and with them i hitted for 50+ every time, so this really is a mystery to me :? The Geologists was 2 levels above, when i try to kill a Mistvale gorilla that is 2 levels below me, i hit it much better, with normal damage 30+, Still i cant kill the gelogist who is 2 levels above me, and thats a little too bad i think... Can you try to explain why i have that low damage with daggers please? Cause of after watching your video that prooved rogues with daggers and stealth is good, i really want to learn how to kill MOB's that fast. :P
Thanks. :)
Edit: I've fixed that problem, when i got 30 more skills in daggers, i started to hit for much more :) The PvE build works really good :)

[Dunderdon]

i like the dagger rogue but i dont know which talents are best to start with.

is the guide in the order you would advise?

[Jaman]

Hello. I am currently at level 33 with my UD Rogue on EU and I was thinking of using the dual dagger crit-build. However the date is a little old and I guess a few changes has been made. Could someone please suggest a fine dual dagger crit-build that is up-to-date, or for that matter post a build that is better if the dual daggers has been nerfed and also what talents to use while leveling and then what to switch to when final. :) Thank you in advance. /Muggen

(Would be more then happy if the author of this thread could reply.)

Thank you!

I have the same problem. I play an UD rouqe on an EU Server. I would like to make the dagger-crit template, bun im not sure if it works any more. Sry if my english isn't so good.

[Halicon]

Dagger crit still works, as no "nerfs" has been given. Doing fine with my 30/21 build (aka hybrid build). Backstab just keeps amazing me. :)

[Myrkur]

For those who are asking about how BS/Ambushes are in PvP:

Have 29/8/14 build right now (4/5 seal fate, 1/5 initiative due to a mess-up early on in my build and too lazy to respec until battlegrounds come out). I have 5/5 remorseless from grinding.

I've done nothing but PvP since getting to 60, but I am on a PvE server.

I'm using a Widowmaker (lvl 42 dagger, 31.6 dps with speed of 1.9), which is my biggest damage bottleneck right now. My ambush crits for 1-1.1k+ on cloth, backstab crits for 800+ on leather and 900+ on cloth, which is no laughing matter. With the Seal Fate bug, I sometimes find myself with 4-5 combo points after the initial Ambush + Backstab, and I basically have ~4 seconds of real exposure time before my CB + Evisc goes off -- which puts quite a bit of hurt on my target. An unprepared caster or wounded hunter / rogue are usually dead by then, in which case I simply Vanish and get the hell out (barring intercepts, DoTs, hunters mark) . If I was unable to vanish or sprint out, I have officially traded my life for my target's.

With my build, however, crits play a very important role. If my Ambush / BS didn't crit, I find myself in a much longer fight. In mass PvP, exposure time is my worst enemy. The longer I stay unstealthed, the higher chance that I am dead. This is mostly because I operate near the back of enemy lines, spending much of my time gauging my enemy's strength and casing my marks. If i'm popped out of stealth and the enemies are reasonably aware, I'm as good as dead. Backstab does quit an impressive damage output when it crits, but it really hurts when it doesn't -- that's the trade off. It's not difficult to pull off at all in PvP if you are half good at circle strafing. Remorseless + BS is nice when my side is clearly winning and is in the process of "mopping up." I can basically run around BSing wounded enemies, finishing the kill and using the remorseless gained to crit BS the next.

I know a lot of stunlock builds and combat builds can do some pretty impressive damage output as well, but as a member of a PvE server where most conflicts involve at least 10 people, those two builds have too much exposure time for my comfort -- sure, your target might not be able to strike back too well, but if his buddies have enough time to come get you, then you've just defeated the purpose. It really ends up being personal style and preference.

I've had a lot of fun doing a rogue trio where two of us were BS builds and the other was a combat build. We have enough tricks up our sleeves to complement each other and make quick work of any stragglers. The idea is most people don't know how to quickly DoT and control the battle situation when there are multiple rogues popping out. You can chase after one but that leaves 2 open to conduct massive damage to the weaker members.

I await to see the effect of the fixed Seal Fate and contemplate Preparation. Daggers, however, will still remain my weapon of choice :)

[komaf]

Thank you Kintoun very good info. Fyi for fun now that I have a 60 alliance rogue on Kel I'm really enjoying your server Archimonde atm on my new UD rogue hehe :)

This time I am going to put the stun lock template down and try a rogue with the template you posted that you said you were leaning towards :)

Thanks again.

Komaf 60 Human rogue Kel'THuzad Hel Maor Guild
Comaf 21 youngin UD rogue Archimonde Awol Guild

[Jaman]

here is my own build it would be very nice if you could comment it.

Master of Deception Rank 5
Opportunity Rank 5
Improved Ambush Rank 3

Subtlety Total: 13

Combat Mastery

Improved Gouge Rank 3
Improved Sinister Strike Rank 2
Improved Backstab Rank 3
Precision Rank 4
Combat Total: 12

Assassination Mastery

Improved Eviscerate Rank 3
Malice Rank 5
Ruthlessness Rank 3
Murder Rank 2
Relentless Strikes Rank 1
Lethality Rank 5
Improved Instant Poison Rank 5
Cold Blood Rank 1
Seal Fate Rank 1
Assassination Total: 26

[UFTimmy]

Re: Hybrid build

I understand it's a PvP build, but I thought I've seen you post that you're using it to level. Is that true? I can see the beauty of it in a PvP or instance environment where you can backstab all day, but it seems to lack the good solo talents.

Am I correct or am I over looking something?

[komaf]

It looks fun no doubt at level 60-That is almost exactly the same as one of the 8 templates I lost gold on. I'm not as "surefooted" as many other rogues so for me I hated trying to get ambush backstab in before someone would spam aoe something and I would get revealed or I'd gouge and the guy would still be on me because he was struck simultaneously by someone.

I wouldn't like losing improved sap. But that's a story for another thread here.

For pve I would wholeheartedly follow Kintoun's pve spec because hands down we solo a lot bro-and I can't think of any template that would be more effective than the one he posted that followed up his Dagger Rogue video.-which is convincing in itself.

Also, without lethality, I am not sure how much fun ambush and or backstab really is-I never tried the various versions of it until I was 58. You might just want to consider that until you are 60 you will be thinking everyday how nice it would be to level asap to get there. In the end like I did, you just might regret not doing the pve Kintoun template :)

Just my two cents.

/salute

Komaf 60 human rogue Kel'Thuzad (retired until battlegrounds is patched in)
Comaf 23 UD rogue Archimonde (Who will probably permanently retire my human rogue anyway ;p)

[South]

The weird thing is that I've seen lot's of Dagger builds vids demostrating that they grind very well but I've neven seen a Combat (or Assa) rogue making a vid. Why is that?

I'm level 46 now I've been grinding with a 30-21-0 build in head but yesterday I respected to a 7-21-5 (something like that), I don't find the combat build to be very effective. Do you still recommend a Dagger build to level up?

PD: I'll do Maraudon and I hope I get a good dagger.

Thank you :)

[jwtiger69]

Kin,

I am pretty knew to the rogue. I have taking a liking to your dagger crit build. I am curious to see what are your key combos for pvp. Thanks....

[Lustt]

south, i ground using a 30-21 build, going down the 30 tree first for sof, i played the rogue like a warrior, just running up to something and ss'ing it till it was ready for an eviscerate.

i hit 60 in 10 days played [almost] and i was afk far far too much :/ [went to work twice without turning my pc off...] so id say any build can level well really, the thing i most noticed when i respecced was the extra damage i took without parry and dodge., thats what makes the difference in the PvE builds imo, people that miss those are cutting of an arm.

[Mathom]

Not really sure if this has been posted anywhere or not, and didn't feel like slogging through 22 pages to find out, and if it is and this is old news, oh well. Was doing a little playing around with a rogue friend and he'd just gotten his barman shanker and was trying to figure out his backstab damage with his various weapons but couldn't figure out exactly what was going on, so we did a bunch of testing and found that the backstab formula is:

(with inspiration)
(avg weapon dmg x1.5 +210)*1.2+(avg listed dmg - avg weapon dmg)

avg listed dmg - avg weapon dmg is the dmg due to attk pwr, but note that it does not get the inspiration bonus dmg.

Anyhow, due to attack power bonuses and other various things, it makes the barman shanker the highest backstab weapon (even higher than felstriker, even though fel has a higher avg weapon dmg).

[komaf]

Well I think we are well into establishing (based on the few comments here) that to worry about seal fate being nerfed is really little if any issue.

Therefore, pointing to some above statements that at least to me appear to be interest stimulating....

I would love to see as I am sure others would as well, some exact numbers comparing various 35-41 or so dps. daggers.

In a perfect world it would be nice to note damage averages governed by various templates vs various armor types as well. In the end of it-it would seem after some arduous work we would in effect be privy to a cross reference guide that would in many cases put a number of questions to rest.

I can only imagine how convenient it would be to be able to find my particular talent template and be able to cross reference it to my weapon type and then finally to the armor type in question (including various rare end instance drops etc). Until we (a) are so fortunate to be able to afford the time and or money to personally compare Voone's dagger from LBRS vs say the Barman Shanker etc. or (b) be able to compile all necessary information into a data table, reconfigure it into Adobe format, and insert it into the rogue forums here-well, perhaps in another year we will start seeing such things.

Until we see such things, I am sure it would be loved by all of us for any of you out there to try to in the least post some opinions/personal experiences on

Backstab (& Ambush?):

(a) Damage numbers (crit/non-crit) in relation to various daggers used by level 60 rogues vs cloth, leather, chain, etc.

(b) Effects and % chance of occuring with a data table of damage from backstab with crusader enchant, or other viable damage increasing enchants, etc.

(c) Combinations of (a) and (b) with and without various talents, i.e., damage averages without lethality 5/5 etc.

<and specifically for some of us who would love to see the following numbers)>

(d) The difference in backstab damage between an attack power geared rogue (i.e., your armor & weapons are attack power focused vs. say agility and or stamina combinations) and an agility stamina and or agility strength based rogue.


For what it's worth I personally will be sure not to let these numbers be put to waste and will myself compile them in my "rogue-scrapbook of tricks and tips."

It's all a learning process for us here folks-can't wait to see if even a few numbers can get pressed into the forge here so to speak.

/Salute

[Myrkur]

Komaf:

http://www.utherwow.com/lib/rogue.xls

I've worked on this a few weeks back just so I can visualize some numbers better. It's nothing comprehensive, but I think it's a pretty good start.

[komaf]

Well hands down Myrkur that is a fine job and thank you for adding that valuable information to this thread. It's competent folks like you that will be the leaders of fleshing out the very things that will make us all better rogues. Thank you again.

/salute

[komaf]

Also as another note to anyone gracing these forums-please feel more than free to add even what you may consider to be a small segment of data to this. Regardless of the amount of data it is the final culmination of what is gathered at sites such as Nurfed that give us the big picture no matter how large or small the pieces of the puzzle.

/Salute

p.s. Good luck at Dire Maul =D

[komaf]

I retrained my talents in regards to doing some personal testing on backstabn ambush. Loving imp sap and camo I followed Kintoun's last rogue modely on his sticky:

Assassination to cold blood (sacrifices seal fate for 9 sub talents)
Combat for imp SS gouge and backstab..
Sub to imp sap with prep and rupture talents capped...

Cost me 45 gold to respecialize (respec) my talents to try yet another template. I don't feel it's fair to give advice on any templates for pvp/pve/instances until I have tried them myself.

So should be interesting to see if from my humble perspective a dagger rogue who focuses on backstab and ambush can with the similar sub talents compete in damage and effectiveness with my main hand sword pure stun lock spec that I have so loved all this time.

Wish me luck

/salute

[Tarmon Gaiden]

I just respeced from dagger crit build to Stealther and I love it. Very effective in PvP w/ Preparation



I retrained my talents in regards to doing some personal testing on backstabn ambush. Loving imp sap and camo I followed Kintoun's last rogue modely on his sticky:

Assassination to cold blood (sacrifices seal fate for 9 sub talents)
Combat for imp SS gouge and backstab..
Sub to imp sap with prep and rupture talents capped...

Cost me 45 gold to respecialize (respec) my talents to try yet another template. I don't feel it's fair to give advice on any templates for pvp/pve/instances until I have tried them myself.

So should be interesting to see if from my humble perspective a dagger rogue who focuses on backstab and ambush can with the similar sub talents compete in damage and effectiveness with my main hand sword pure stun lock spec that I have so loved all this time.

Wish me luck

/salute

[arctickcin]

where can i see video?

[arch]

where can i see video?

If you're looking for Kintoun's video, I suggest that you read the first post of the thread before asking stupid questions.

[Athrun]

I think he means he can't see it, because the link is broken.
Could be your right tho arch

[Andorion]

Dagger using crit build:
This build takes the heart of the rogue and enhances everything about it. The rogue is meant to be pure DPS and this is the HIGEST DPS talent build that the rogue can achieve.

Key Points:
-Highest DPS build
-Ambushes crit 65% of the time and deal 50% more dmg, it should be your main opener
-Backstabs crit 50% of the time and deal 50% more dmg, this is your main damage dealer
-Ambushes deal ~1400 on a crit to cloth
-Backstabs deal ~1000 on a crit to cloth
-All crits give you an extra combo point (seal fate)
-Sacrifice defense talents for higher DPS - rogue no matter what cannot take hits
-Guarenteed crit (coldblood)



Subtlety Mastery
Camouflage - Rank 5/5
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

Opportunity - Rank 5/5
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.

Improved Ambush - Rank 3/3
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 45%.
Subtlety Total&#58; 13

Combat Mastery
Improved Gouge - Rank 3/3
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 secs.

Improved Sinister Strike - Rank 2/2
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5.

Improved Backstab - Rank 3/3
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.
Combat Total&#58; 8

Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate - Rank 3/3
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

Remorseless Attacks - Rank 5/5
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 40% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.

Malice - Rank 5/5
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Ruthlessness - Rank 3/3
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.
Murder - Rank 2/2
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.

Relentless Strikes - Rank 1/1
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

Lethality - Rank 5/5
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.

Cold Blood - Rank 1/1
Instant cast 3 min cooldown
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.

Seal Fate - Rank 5/5
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.
Assassination Total&#58; 30


I've been using this build since I hit 60, Heartseeker in mainhand (Timeworn mace in offhand for stam/armor mostly.) Being able to ambush crit cloth casters for 1200+ damage, BS with a 50%+ crit chance for 900+ damage, gouge for 5.5 seconds (regenning almost enough energy for another BS) and save that CB for a 5-point evisc makes this a devastating PvP build.

I have no doubt the extra energy required for a BS is worth the 30% crit chance from imp. bs and the 20% increased damage from opportunity, especially considering those frequent crits will more than make up for the quicker combo point collection from SS.

In PvE, getting "behind" the mob isn't always practical, but I haven't had any trouble doing so consistently in almost all encounters (Onyxia included.)

If there's one downside to this build, it's the "streaky" nature of it - you very much rely on those BSs to crit, to collect combo points and do damage fast enough. Two or three regular BS in a row are very bad news.

[Mylar]

read most of the thread now, and im still left with this:
what would be a good grind-buildup for a rogue still lvling?

[arctickcin]

where can i see video?

If you're looking for Kintoun's video, I suggest that you read the first post of the thread before asking stupid questions.

It wasn't a stupid question, because I read the whole thread, and I do for one know that the video link is indeed at the front of the thread. Yet, the link is broken.

[arch]

read most of the thread now, and im still left with this:
what would be a good grind-buildup for a rogue still lvling?

I suggest you go for a Assasination build with some combat. Atleast that's what I've been using and I've tried both Kintoun's build and using swords, and from my experience sword build outweight it by far.

Combat Mastery
Improved Sinister Strike
Rank 2/2
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5.
Lightning Reflexes
Rank 5/5
Increases your Dodge chance by 5%.
Deflection
Rank 5/5
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.
Precision
Rank 5/5
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.
Riposte
Rank 1/1
10 Energy 5 yd range
Instant 6 sec cooldown
A strike that becomes active after parrying an opponent's attack. This attack deals 150% weapon damage and disarms the target for 6 sec.
Improved Kick
Rank 2/2
Gives your Kick ability a 100% chance to silence the target for 2 sec.
Blade Flurry
Rank 1/1
25 Energy
Instant 2 min cooldown
Requires Melee Weapon
Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 sec.
Combat Total: 21
Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate
Rank 3/3
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.
Remorseless Attacks
Rank 5/5
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 40% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike. Lasts 20 sec.
Malice
Rank 5/5
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.
Ruthlessness
Rank 3/3
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.
Murder
Rank 2/2
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.
Relentless Strikes
Rank 1/1
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.
Lethality
Rank 5/5
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.
Cold Blood
Rank 1/1
Instant 3 min cooldown
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.
Seal Fate
Rank 5/5
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.
Assassination Total: 30
Total
Total Points Spent: 51
Level Required: 60

In the order of 2 SS, then go Assassination all the way out and at last fill out with Combat.

[Tarmon Gaiden]

Dagger using crit build:
This build takes the heart of the rogue and enhances everything about it. The rogue is meant to be pure DPS and this is the HIGEST DPS talent build that the rogue can achieve.

Key Points:
-Highest DPS build
-Ambushes crit 65% of the time and deal 50% more dmg, it should be your main opener
-Backstabs crit 50% of the time and deal 50% more dmg, this is your main damage dealer
-Ambushes deal ~1400 on a crit to cloth
-Backstabs deal ~1000 on a crit to cloth
-All crits give you an extra combo point (seal fate)
-Sacrifice defense talents for higher DPS - rogue no matter what cannot take hits
-Guarenteed crit (coldblood)



Subtlety Mastery
Camouflage - Rank 5/5
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

Opportunity - Rank 5/5
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.

Improved Ambush - Rank 3/3
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 45%.
Subtlety Total&#58; 13

Combat Mastery
Improved Gouge - Rank 3/3
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 secs.

Improved Sinister Strike - Rank 2/2
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5.

Improved Backstab - Rank 3/3
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.
Combat Total&#58; 8

Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate - Rank 3/3
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

Remorseless Attacks - Rank 5/5
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 40% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.

Malice - Rank 5/5
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Ruthlessness - Rank 3/3
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.
Murder - Rank 2/2
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.

Relentless Strikes - Rank 1/1
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

Lethality - Rank 5/5
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.

Cold Blood - Rank 1/1
Instant cast 3 min cooldown
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.

Seal Fate - Rank 5/5
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.
Assassination Total&#58; 30


I've been using this build since I hit 60, Heartseeker in mainhand (Timeworn mace in offhand for stam/armor mostly.) Being able to ambush crit cloth casters for 1200+ damage, BS with a 50%+ crit chance for 900+ damage, gouge for 5.5 seconds (regenning almost enough energy for another BS) and save that CB for a 5-point evisc makes this a devastating PvP build.

I have no doubt the extra energy required for a BS is worth the 30% crit chance from imp. bs and the 20% increased damage from opportunity, especially considering those frequent crits will more than make up for the quicker combo point collection from SS.

In PvE, getting "behind" the mob isn't always practical, but I haven't had any trouble doing so consistently in almost all encounters (Onyxia included.)

If there's one downside to this build, it's the "streaky" nature of it - you very much rely on those BSs to crit, to collect combo points and do damage fast enough. Two or three regular BS in a row are very bad news.


Andorian,

You may want to give the Stealther build a shot, it has all the power of the Dagger-Using Crit build with more utility, mainly because of Preparation and Improved Sap (which I've turned out to really enjoy). It just lacks the combo point generation that you get with SoF. I just switched from your build at 60 to this one and like it much more. I think I'm more effective in both PvP and PvE.

TG

[Gorlab]

[quote="Tarmon GaidenIt just lacks the combo point generation that you get with SoF. [/quote]

That's like saying "this sword build is just like a dagger build lacking improved backstab!". Even after being fixed seal fate + imp. backstab is one of the strongest dps combos in the game.

[Andorion]

Even after being fixed seal fate + imp. backstab is one of the strongest dps combos in the game.

Preperation and Imp. Sap are VERY tempting for 1v2 and 1v3 pvp, I have to admit - being able to do multiple saps, blinds, and ambush in a single fight is huge. Even with seal fate, it's difficult to kill one player before blind wears off, making 1v3 nearly impossible, and losing that big ambush in 1v2 (blowing stealth on the sap) is unfortunate too.

As fun as they are, I try to avoid anything more than 1v2, and doubt I'd dive in even with a Stealther build, just because it's too risky (and dependant on too many variables.) Having Imp. BS without Seal Fate seems like a very big waste, especially with that CB waiting for evisc.

[Soulless]

Is 5/5 swordspec. worth dropping BladeFlurry and Dualwieldspec. down to 4/5?

Got 3/5 swordspec. atm.

[neurotic]

Is a dagger crit build still a viable option for xp grinding? Hearing so much complaints about daggers, but ambush and backstab is pretty efficient damage it seems...?

[Kintoun]

The argument between Cheap Shot and Ambush was pretty close, but now that Bliz nerfed ambush + leathality, it's more clear cut. Also backstab now does MORE damage, about 10% more damage! With no ambush, and more cheapshotting you'd think swords was an easy decision. But since backstab has increased damage and backstab was well over 50% of a dagger users damage when fighting long battles..... it only reaffirms that daggers deal more damage than swords/maces.

Basically, I'm making a new build for non-battlegrounds PVP. It's a stealther type build. And as said before, once batlegrounds comes out and we see how that plays, I can actually decide on a final talent build for myself =X.

[arch]

I can actually decide on a final talent build for myself =X.

Yeah, right, like that would happen.

[South]

Kintoun, are you sure that ambush has been nerfed? Because, the +atk power maybe is going to cover the loss from lethality.

Does someone know for sure that ambush has been nerfed? The few topics about this that I've read, say that apparently the damage has been increased. In addition, maybe with +atk power gear you could improve BS/AMBUSH perfomance. (I've seen gear that can give you 720atkpower unbuffed).

What do you think?

[Satthu]

I've heard that 650 Atk power/ambush will equal the pre-nerf ambush. So over 650 Atk would actually make bigger ambushes than before. I guess we'll know for sure once the final version goes live.

[Loarake]

I've been trying to make a stealther build that uses cheap shot instead of ambush as a main attack. What I was trying to build was a useful rogue. One that focuses more on making it easier for your group to kill things, rather than just do all the damage yourself.

I first opted not to go for cold blood, but then I realized it was only 2 talent points away from my original build (just remove vile poisons and cold blood from my assassination tree, that's what I opted for first)

What I expect this build to do on the battlefield : Cheap shot to stun, rupture for DoTage if the guy ever thinks of running away (I'm not sure if rupture can crit, can it?), improved sap for sapping fun, preparation for cooldown fun, using backstab as a main attack (and rupture as a finishing move, or eviscerate if you really need to finish your target and you have the combo points, which is why I included improved evisc).

I'd probably use crippling + deadly poison on my daggers.

The build is almost an exact replica of Kintoun's stealther build, except it doesn't take imp. ambush.

Assassination Talents (21 points)


Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.


Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.


Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.


Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.


Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.


Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.


Vile Poisons - 1/5 point
Increases the damage dealt by your poisons by 3%.


Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.




Combat Talents (8 points)


Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 seconds.


Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.


Improved Backstab - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.




Subtlety Talents (22 points)


Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.


Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.


Initiative - 5/5 points
Gives you a 75% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.


Improved Sap - 3/3 points
Adds a 90% chance to return to stealth mode after using your Sap ability.


Improved Rupture - 3/3 points
Increases the damage of dealt by your Rupture ability by 30%.


Preparation - 1/1 point
When activated, this ability immediately finishes the cooldown on your other Rogue abilities.


I'm sorry if this build has ever been posted, or ever been discussed on. I just reset my talents for the hefty cost of 30g, and I'm not a big gold farmer (and I don't plan on doing a lot of PVE anymore now that the honor system is out, so my gold income will be very low). I just want to be sure that I'm not gimping myself from lack of experience with those talents.

I'd like it if someone could maybe point anything they see wrong with my build as a stealther.

Thanks

[Phantasym]

ASSASSINATION (2)

Malice 2

---

COMBAT (28)

Lightning Reflexes 5
Improved Backstab 3
Precision 5
Improved Sprint 3
ImprovedKick 2
Dagger Specialization 5
Dual Wield Specialization 5

---

SUBTLETY (21)

Rapid Concealment 5
Master of Deception 5
Camouflage 5
Elusiveness 1
Ghostly Strike 1
Improved Sap 3
Preperation 1

---

I've been playing games competitively for quite some time and I generally know the layout of whatever character I chose to build before I make it. The preplanning of my characters attributes has always served me well.

[UFTimmy]

I've been playing games competitively for quite some time and I generally know the layout of whatever character I chose to build before I make it. The preplanning of my characters attributes has always served me well.

Not to be a jerk... but then read this thread to find out why a good number of the talents you picked are kinda worthless. :/

[Kintoun]

I know I said I was making a new build but I really don't wanna drop the cash until I get more info for large scale PVP.

I'm torn between these two builds:
Assassination down to coldblood
Combat just to backstab
Subtlety camo, MoD/Elusiveness,Init, Opp, NO ambush, down to prep and 1 pt in imp cheap shot

OR

Assassination to seal fate and vigor
Combat to backstab
Subtlety to Opp

The reason being a cheap shot + backstab crit deals 85% of the damage that a ambush crit deals. I'm torn between the DPS of seal fate or the utility of a prep rogue. We'll see with BG's...

[Indalamar]

I'm envious of the fact that you can have a 24 page debate on rogue specs.
Warrior specs are "31/20 Get MS and Enrage"

[arch]

I'm envious of the fact that you can have a 24 page debate on rogue specs.
Warrior specs are "31/20 Get MS and Enrage"

That's because warriors sucks :oops:

[South]

I know I said I was making a new build but I really don't wanna drop the cash until I get more info for large scale PVP.

I'm torn between these two builds:
Assassination down to coldblood
Combat just to backstab
Subtlety camo, MoD/Elusiveness,Init, Opp, NO ambush, down to prep and 1 pt in imp cheap shot

OR

Assassination to seal fate and vigor
Combat to backstab
Subtlety to Opp

The reason being a cheap shot + backstab crit deals 85% of the damage that a ambush crit deals. I'm torn between the DPS of seal fate or the utility of a prep rogue. We'll see with BG's...

Nice changes.. But I think that I'd miss ambush. Starting the fight vs a cloth with 50% life is awesome.

BG's are coming soon..

Kin, how are you doing with pvp honor? In your opinion, is the rogue a class that could be in the top ranks? Or the zerg hability of mages > rogues?

[Athrun]

No Indal, it's cuz u never reply in ur own sticky. People don't even have a clue what ur using now since the main site talent spec is different from ur forum talent spec.
grtz

[Loarake]

I've been using the build I posted above for a bit, and I really love it. One thing I noticed though is that rupture is not a viable finishing move, I find myself using KS and evisc way more often in most cases.

[Phantasym]

Not to be a jerk... but then read this thread to find out why a good number of the talents you picked are kinda worthless. :/

Personally, I wouldn't say that the talents that I have chosen are worthless. They're just not popular (most of them) because most others believe that there are better ways to spend there talent points.

By no means am I saying my build is the best.
However, It works wonders for my playstyle and I am very happy with it.
In fact, I am happy that the build is deemed worthless. In a way that makes my character "Unsung" an underdog. And I enjoy playing 'underdogs'.

[Blah]

I recently picked up a Mass of Mcgowan and Timmy's Cruel hand so I decided to make my own little build around mace spec 5/5.


Subtlety Mastery
Camouflage Rank 5
Subtlety Total: 5

Combat Mastery
Improved Gouge Rank 3
Improved Sinister Strike Rank 2
Lightning Reflexes Rank 5
Deflection Rank 5
Improved Evasion Rank 2
Riposte Rank 1
Improved Kick Rank 2
Mace Specialization Rank 5
Blade Flurry Rank 1
Aggression Rank 3
Combat Total: 29

Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate Rank 3
Malice Rank 5
Ruthlessness Rank 3
Relentless Strikes Rank 1
Lethality Rank 5
Assassination Total: 17

Total
Total Points Spent: 51
Level Required: 60


I'd also like to add im not a big fan of cool-downs - i've tried so many builds before and mace spec is definitely my favorite. With the Mass of McGowan I randomly hit 800 crit sinister strikes.

[arch]

If I were you I would skip the 5 in Camouflage and put them in combat for Adrenaline Rush.

[Blah]

Like I said - I'm not big on cooldowns. I'd much rather have the camo.

[arch]

Like I said - I'm not big on cooldowns. I'd much rather have the camo.

Since you're going to use maces you won't be in stealth enough to make Camo useful enough.

[I cu7 mys31f]

How effective are Kintoun's builds in PvE?

I love the idea of a full assassination/subtlety build (daggers, maxed backstabbing and ambush...you get the point) but I've never tried it in PvE. How well does it work?

[arch]

I'd say that it works okay, but a assa spec with swords is better IMO, all this sneaking up on targets is annoying and if you don't crit or miss the ambush it slows you down alot.

[Watzit2ya]

Lvling my 3rd rogue to 60, still finding that the assassination/combat just going sinister strike talents are faster for lvling.

[Kissyface]

Update 12/12/04:

I've played side-by-side with higher level sword rogues and kill the same level MOBs faster. Forget Blade Flurry for PVE. You can't get it until levle 30, but you're gimp with no power until you get leathality at 45. Dagger crit just needs ambush at 22 which takes off half their health around that level. As you get higher level tho your crits start taking off less of a chunk, but then at 37 you get leathality which puts you back in business.

[/code][/url]

dude.... you realize that lethality does not effect ambushes, right? SS, BS, Gouge, GS, and Hemo only.

Is this an oversight, a typo, or am I reading your post wrong?

[Koryu]

dude.... you realize that lethality does not effect ambushes, right? SS, BS, Gouge, GS, and Hemo only.

Is this an oversight, a typo, or am I reading your post wrong?


You're reading his post wrong and you're dumb.


Update 12/12/04

They only changed lethality to not effect ambush in the last patch.

[Odgaard]

Hi Kintoun.
I'm pretty sure that this have already been asked, and that I'm just to blind to find it, but here goes.
I'd like to know you're opinion on weather lethality is worth maxing now that it does not affect ambush. And weather ambush is worth using(though I really like it).

Edit: I've been using you're dagger/crit build untill now, and I'm very pleased with it, and I'd like to know if you have any updates on it.

Thanks!

[I cu7 mys31f]

I'm currently using dual Pearl-Handled Daggers at level 19. I was thinking of switching the off-hand dagger for a Cruel Barb (lose 2 sta/agi, gain 12 attack power). Would this be a good move, for a backstab/ambush build?

[Watzit2ya]

Although im not Kintoun, i can offer answers through my opinions. Been playing a Rogue since closed myself. You'll find that at 60, if you actively pvp you use backstab more than anything. The high hits on backstab are a must - have for me. Often breaking into the 1100-1200 range on casters, and able to spam them unlike ambush. Id say maxing backstab damage out put is a must for any dagger rogue. THEN you should decide if you want to take advantage of ambush or not. I prefer ambush on any target except a pally.

[Odgaard]

Okey, I like ambush and backstab very much, and I believe I have great advantage in PvP, although PvE is abit weakened. So I guess I'll stay with this build for now :) thanks

[Watzit2ya]

It depends on what type of mobs you fight in PvE. It deffinatly takes a bit more macro'ing, but against certain mobs you kill faster.

In PvP You can take advantage of backstab so much. Its by far my biggest damage dealer.

[Odgaard]

What kind of macroing? The way I kill mobs is by ambushing, then gouging and then backstabbing.. When I fight alone that is. Anything I'm missing out on?

[Watzit2ya]

Usually if im fighting a mob that isnt easy to kill it goes

Ambush
Gouge
backstab
SS
SS
6 sec stun
BS
Gouge
BS

Repeat for god knows how long. The only macro'ing is you have to be behind the target move around alot more. SS Rogue's you can just mash SS2win.

[I cu7 mys31f]

Question.

I have 32g at the moment. My mechanical squirrel schematic sells for 10g. A friend owes me 9g...that's 51g so far. Now, I have The Butcher (level 26 blue sword, 72 top damage, 19.# dps, +5 agi +4 sta)(from memory). I'm currently using the Cruel Barb, along with the Bite of Serra'kis. Trying to get the Meteor Shard ATM, but whatever. Anyway.

Would you use the sword, or sell it for 23g? It has a +6 beastslaying enchantment already on, if that helps.

And to keep this on-topic...do you think taking both Camo and MoD is worth it? Currently:
(I screwed the build up, but haven't used any respecs yet)

5 Malice
5 Lightning Reflexes
2 Sinister Strike
5 MoD

-level 26. I'm still undecided on builds...Ambush is really tempting (PvE), but I seem to kill faster with only Sinister Strike/Evi spam. Less DT, too. I'd be laughing at myself for days if I equiped the sword, and switched to a stealth build =\

Anyway. Camo+MoD. If I were to go Ambush/Backstab, would it be worth taking? I'm getting the speed enchantment on my boots, as well, so that's another 7%? speed.

[Athrun]

i'd just take camo and the rest of the ambush build.. MoD is useless in pve, at least i don't need it, and i suck xd, but camo rocks and lets u walk really fast in stealth, not really letting you notice it. (the fact you're stealthed i meant)

[I cu7 mys31f]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I thought MoD would be better for stealth instance runs, though. Serra'kis and the Electrocutioner =P

Guess I'll go Camo.

[Athrun]

In a pure PvP perspective would it be better to use the dagger crit build but then use 5/5 lightning reflexes instead of imp SS and imp gouge? It would still give enough points to get backstab up 3/3.
Tell me your thoughts plz, will 3/3 imp gouge and 2/2 imp ss really contribute that much in pvp, or not?
(I know in stunlock builds it will, but then would a stunlock build be as necessary with 5% improved dodge?)

[arch]

I'd say that if you're going to be a backstabber, you still need Imp. SS and Imp. Gogue isn't bad, I actually have gotten to have it in every spec I have since it helps alot.

[evl_]

In a pure PvP perspective would it be better to use the dagger crit build but then use 5/5 lightning reflexes instead of imp SS and imp gouge? It would still give enough points to get backstab up 3/3.
Tell me your thoughts plz, will 3/3 imp gouge and 2/2 imp ss really contribute that much in pvp, or not?
(I know in stunlock builds it will, but then would a stunlock build be as necessary with 5% improved dodge?)

I don't see the point in putting points in +dodge for PvP, it's only useful against paladins anyway, with all the MS warriors with reapers having high dodge is like begging for that overpower crit.

[Athrun]

thanks for the replies ;), idd i agree evl_

[HolyDemon]

Assassination Talents (30 points)

# Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

# Remorseless Attacks - 5/5 points
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 40% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike.

# Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.

# Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

# Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage abilities by 30%.

# Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

# Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.

# Seal Fate - 5/5 points
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.



Combat Talents (8 points)

# Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 seconds.

# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.

# Improved Backstab - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.



Subtlety Talents (13 points)

# Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

# Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.

# Improved Ambush - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 40%.



I would like to know how other people think of this build :) I am now using a Sword build, but I wanted to have some more strategy, instead of just smacking the SS button till I win. So with an Ambush / Backstab build I hoped to be needing some more strategy while playing, and to be more effective in PvP.

[Athrun]

Kintoun have you decided on a BG build yet ;)?

[Kintoun]

Kintoun have you decided on a BG build yet ;)?
Stealther, 100%. Though right now I'm dagger crit (seal fate) so I'm more useful for raiding.

If used correctly the DPS of a prep rogue is higher than any other build for burst and a short amount of time. And the survivability is better, AND the utility is better. Thats exactly whats needed in BG's.

[Kaen]

Hmm since lethality got nerfed that ambush build is still good for PVE ??
One more question : Ambush+gouge+bs is faster than cs+ss+ss spam combo ?

Thnx in advance.

P.s : yeah i got caught by that dilemma too :P ambush or ss spam...

[Teldrius]

Hey guys. Teldrius from Banned here. I'm making a Rogue alt, and I'm looking for some advice from you folks. You know your shit, so I thought I'd come to you. I've come up with this build, which I think looks good on paper, but I'll let you all pick it apart and tell me what you think. Advice, tips, and suggestions would be awesome. Thanks a lot.

Assassination Talents (17 points)


Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.


Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.


Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.


Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge,
Backstab, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage abilities by 30%.


Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.



Combat Talents (29 points)


Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.


Lightning Reflexes - 5/5 points
Increases your Dodge chance by 5%.


Improved Gouge - 2/3 points
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1 second.


Precision - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.


Deflection - 5/5 points
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.


Improved Sprint - 3/3 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Sprint ability by 90 seconds.


Riposte - 1/1 point
A strike that becomes active after parrying an opponent's attack. This attack
deals 150% weapon damage and disarms the target for 6 seconds.


Improved Kick - 2/2 points
Gives your Kick ability a 100% chance to silence the target for 2 seconds.


Blade Flurry - 1/1 point
Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional
nearby opponent. Lasts 15 seconds.


Aggression - 3/3 points
Increases the damage of your Sinister Strike and Eviscerate abilities by 6%.



Subtlety Talents (5 points)


Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

Threw this together on WoWVault yesterday. I'm going combat spec btw. Two swords are the way to go, however I don't want to completely rule out daggers, and I will most likely carry one around with me incase I ever feel the need to sneak up behind someone and stab them between the shoulders.

So yeah, pick it apart please. Thanks in advanced.

[Tr0fast]

I'm wondering how will the imp. rupture interfer with gouge/backstab?
The way I've figured it out is that imp. rupture is meant to be used against high AC targets, and kidney shot/backstab against low AC targets (cloth,leather,mail).

Is imp rupture worth the three points, as it's only suitable for PvP vs warriors. KS with 5 point is enough to get two crit. backstabs, and that is way more dmg than rupture.

If I would remove imp. rupture I would put them in initiative so I can get the crucial combopoint when ambushing or cheap shotting.

What's your opinions?

[Tr0fast]

Another questiong, sorry for double posting, but I cant edit my post.

I was farming SM and when I tried to sap two mobs the first I sapped returned to "un-sapped" modus.

What is this?

[evl_]

Kintoun have you decided on a BG build yet ;)?
Stealther, 100%. Though right now I'm dagger crit (seal fate) so I'm more useful for raiding.

If used correctly the DPS of a prep rogue is higher than any other build for burst and a short amount of time. And the survivability is better, AND the utility is better. Thats exactly whats needed in BG's.

How can Seal Fate > Dagger Spec + Precision for raiding when Eviscerate does poop damage and you can't run Rupture because of 8 debuff limit... and that 5 points you have to stuff in some poison talent is too often resisted in high-level instances that an Elemental Grindstone ought to outperform it.

Discuss! Debate! Bring the ruccus!

[UFTimmy]

Another questiong, sorry for double posting, but I cant edit my post.

I was farming SM and when I tried to sap two mobs the first I sapped returned to "un-sapped" modus.

What is this?

http://thottbot.com/?sp=6770

What is read the tooltip, Alex?

[Andorion]

I don't think I've found a difinitive answer on this yet:

Is the 5% from Precision seperate from the 5% "cap" on to-hit gear we're affected by?

My miss rate is 24% with no to-hit gear on... when I equip 5% tohit gear, I go to 19% miss rate. If I put on 9% tohit gear, I stay at 19%, meaning that extra 4% did nothing for me.

My question is, if I have 5% in tohit gear, plus 5% from my atlent, will I drop to 14% miss rate, or is that 5% from the talens included in the tohit cap?

If it's 5% max for both, that's pretty dumb - Precision is required to get DW spec, and it's almost impossible to avoid tohit gear (it would be a complete waste if the cap includes the talent.)

Thanks for anyone who can shed some light on this!

[shikuu]

Chance-to-hit scales based on level difference; it would make sense that your overcapped +%tohit would come in to play when dealing with mobs of higher level, or players with higher defense, than the normal cap provides for.

Theorycraft, yes, but logically sound.

edit: oh yeah, it's blizzard we're talking about here so, it's safe to assume they may not have coded in a scaling system such as this--thus negating 5 "necessary" talent points for many rogue builds, and insulting rogues with excessive +%tohit bonuses on Tier-0+ items.

Probably hardcapped now that I realize it's "the new blizzard" we're dealing with :roll:

[keboman]

I don't think I've found a difinitive answer on this yet:

Is the 5% from Precision seperate from the 5% "cap" on to-hit gear we're affected by?

My miss rate is 24% with no to-hit gear on... when I equip 5% tohit gear, I go to 19% miss rate. If I put on 9% tohit gear, I stay at 19%, meaning that extra 4% did nothing for me.

My question is, if I have 5% in tohit gear, plus 5% from my atlent, will I drop to 14% miss rate, or is that 5% from the talens included in the tohit cap?

If it's 5% max for both, that's pretty dumb - Precision is required to get DW spec, and it's almost impossible to avoid tohit gear (it would be a complete waste if the cap includes the talent.)

Thanks for anyone who can shed some light on this!

Yeah, basically they'd need to change it to -5% to DW miss rate to have any affect.

[big_boi]

i've heared that agility has deminishing returns past 300 for rogues. is this true?

[big_boi]

doesnt anyone know the answer? :>

ok, then i'll just ask some more ^^

if i am using a weapon like the felstriker, and use a skill, like SnD to boost my attack speed, would it enhance the probability for the procc or not?

if i have a weapon with the damage range of lets say 60-100 and enchant it with +5 to damage, does it mean, that this weapon now has the damage range of 65-105 or not? or just simply asked, whats in your opinions better to enchant, +x dam, crusader or +15 agi? :>

[Cleaver]

Could anyone rehost Rouges_have_it_coming.avi? I would love to watch it

[Cleaver]

What do you guys think of:


Assassination Talents (19 points)

Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Remorseless Attacks - 5/5 points
After killing an opponent that yields experience, gives you a 40% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike. Lasts 20 seconds.

Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ghostly Strike, and Hemorrhage abilities by 30%.


Combat Talents (10 points)

Lightning Reflexes - 5/5 points
Increases your Dodge chance by 5%.

Deflection - 5/5 points
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.


Subtlety Talents (22 points)

Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

Master of Deception - 5/5 points
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 4)

Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.

Improved Ambush - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 40%.

Improved Vanish - 3/3 points
Increases your movement speed while vanished by 30%.

Preparation - 1/1 point
When activated, this ability immediately finishes the cooldown on your other Rogue abilities.

[evl_]

Improved Vanish - 3/3 points

wtf? :D

[Cleaver]

Improved Vanish - 3/3 points

wtf? :D

Well, I'm thinking me vs. group pvp. Maybe I want to kill mage and priest, I pwnz0r priest fast, and then maybe the mage tries to run when I vanish, which at which I gotta move fast to get him. What would be better in your openion?

[evl_]

Naturally Initiative is a far better choice than most of the crap you got in Sub.

[Cleaver]

Naturally Initiative is a far better choice than most of the crap you got in Sub.

Why is that naturally? Could you please explain why, instead of just being conservative at state that's how it is. I see extra combopoints are good, but what use are they if you don't get to use them (ie. not get close to your opponent)

[Yeniceri]

If you want to kill a group (hopefully you mean 2 guys and no more :)) then the OP 21/8/22 is the best but requires alot of practice, timing and skills and uber gear to kill 2 guys your own lvl.

Use improved sap and then ambush the guy you want dead first. Although chances will allways be against you

The other builds from OP are also good if the guys your killing are classes where you can use normal sap on one guy and then a fast vanish cheapshot or just pwn the second guy dead with ss spam and evis.

Your own spec is okay but the others are better value for your talent points really

Tbh though most classes are hard to kill 1vs1 at lvl 60 if the player is decked out and skilled. Why you want to kill a "group"? :P

[Cleaver]

If you want to kill a group (hopefully you mean 2 guys and no more :)) then the OP 21/8/22 is the best but requires alot of practice, timing and skills and uber gear to kill 2 guys your own lvl.

Use improved sap and then ambush the guy you want dead first. Although chances will allways be against you

The other builds from OP are also good if the guys your killing are classes where you can use normal sap on one guy and then a fast vanish cheapshot or just pwn the second guy dead with ss spam and evis.

Your own spec is okay but the others are better value for your talent points really

Tbh though most classes are hard to kill 1vs1 at lvl 60 if the player is decked out and skilled. Why you want to kill a "group"? :P¨

Because killing one dude = fun, killing two dudes = twice as fun, killing three dudes = tripple fun ect :wink:
Thanks for you advices, I'll look into it.

[komaf]

Kintoun, if you are still out there and playing your rogue (not just your mage ;p) that perhaps you could update this sticky. Considering some of the rogue weapon changes this would be particulaly helpful. We'd all appreciate it.

/salute

[komaf]

Kintoun, if you are still out there and playing your rogue (not just your mage ;p) that perhaps you could update this sticky. Considering some of the rogue weapon changes this would be particularly helpful. We'd all appreciate it.

/salute

[big_boi]

just go for 18/33 /0 with imp. kick if you are wearing full epic and viskag in the mainhand and like to grp pvp and raid instances.

21/3/28 with hemo and imp gouge if you like to duel the most. this specc is very good, regardless of you gear.

31/8/12 with only 2 points in imp ambush, if you have 5 NS and like to 2-3 shot ppl in alterac or in the open.

[komaf]

Hehe totally agreed..based on my time as a rogue since opening day. However, one thing I've learned after I canceled this ever stagnant slighlty more mmo than guild wars game...if you don't have a guild with 40 solid 60s you are never unless you have pals from other guilds going to see the MC gear in any timeable fashion. Wandering around watching some rogue with full nightslayer, perditions, etc...gets pretty old especially when your guild has never even seen Ragnaros...


Got in one guild that was good then the leader stepped down and it went to poo sadly. I think WoW can be pretty rewarding if you do have a good guild like this. Also I suppose if you can lock a rogue with al these toys down and pop him with two cold blood eviscerates you can pretty much win more times than not even if you are using crap like krol or barman lol.

WIsh the game would expand enough to make it have longer play value..but this is off the topic.

I do agree with your post on specs and what they are good for.

/salute

[evl_]

just go for 18/33 /0 with imp. kick if you are wearing full epic and viskag in the mainhand and like to grp pvp and raid instances.


And where are the points spread in this? Ruthless + Relentless or Murder +Ruthless or Remorseless?

I've been taking a break for a while, is Seal Fate still a good leveling spec?

[big_boi]

Seal Fate is the best lvling specc imo, if you dont power up your rogue alt with the best equipment you can buy for him on the ah for his lvl or something. but if you do so, i would stick to combat instead.

the 18/33/0 specc includes:

malice 5/5
lethality 5/5
ruthlessness 3/3
relentles strikes 1/1

the other points are up to you, wether you put em in imp eviscerate or imp SnD or imp expose armor. with 18/33/0 you will use this 3 finishers almost equally often.

[Ishra]

i could not be arsed to read all these damn forums for an answer but how does the 30/8/13 build works for PvE? and wich skills should i be talenting pre-40 to get out most of it?

[big_boi]

all u have to read is the first post by kintoun, young padawan.

[Asp]

I think Lethality is not that important any more for SOLO LEVELING. Maybe it's time to change it? I know it was asked already, but we haven't recieved clear answer based on facts.

[big_boi]

I think Lethality is not that important any more for SOLO LEVELING. Maybe it's time to change it? I know it was asked already, but we haven't recieved clear answer based on facts.

why do you think, that more damage isn't that important for solo grinding?

[Asp]

So I found that formula and I'm not fully understanding it.


&#40;with inspiration&#41;
&#40;avg weapon dmg x1.5 +210&#41;*1.2+&#40;avg listed dmg - avg weapon dmg&#41;

avg listed dmg - avg weapon dmg is the dmg due to attk pwr, but note that it does not get the inspiration bonus dmg.

Things Like is it include Opportunity and Lethality. And what' is Ispiration? The same thing as Opportunity?

With my little brain I figured out that *1.2 is opportunity, but it's not enough to figure out where should I include Lethality, witch was left out (or wasn't it?)

[big_boi]

where did u find that formula in the first place?

[Asp]

In this topic o_O

[Asp]

Please post the correct formula, if you have it.

[big_boi]

i dont like formulas :X

[Asp]

Are those correct ones?
http://www.sk-gaming.com/wow/rogue/

[RubiksCube]

I'm currently in the process of creating a dagger/premed build and I'd like to know your opinions on the build I'm thinking of right now:

Assassination (12 points)

3/3 Improved Eviscerate
5/5 Malice
3/3 Ruthlessness
1/1 Relentless Strikes

Combat (8 points)

3/3 Improved Gouge
2/2 Improved Sinister Strike
3/3 Improved Backstab

Subtlety (31 points)

5/5 Rapid Concealment
4/5 Master of Deception
5/5 Camouflage
5/5 Opportunity
5/5 Initiative
3/3 Improved Ambush
2/3 Improved Sap
1/1 Preparation
1/1 Premeditation


Might exchange Malice for Remorseless Attacks, especially with Rapid Concealment in this build.

Thoughts?

[big_boi]

isnt there a bug, which leaves you in combat for aprox 5 secs after u killed someone? that would render rapid concealment + remorseless rather useless, would it not?

[ScHr0t]

So...is that first build for dagger rouge the BEST??? :roll: :roll:

[big_boi]

depends on your definition of "BEST"

[NurfedRogue]

YAY ! NICE BUILD YOU GOT THERE :D

Darn, and im a member of: Caps Lock Killers, lol!

[Andvarion]

A couple people have asked, though Kintoun hasn't answered... about the PvE build still being viable due to the Lethality nerf.

It's certainly not as good as it used to be, but I don't know how it would compare to a combat build as I've never played a combat rogue. Most rogues I see these days grinding use a combat build, so maybe that's better now than Kintoun's build.

Shame, I loved huge ambush crits. =(

Any opinions on this Kintoun?

[Mita]

he doesn't play anymore, and there's a new stickied thread up top.