Power of the Fiery Rogue

[SandDemon]

Alright, I want to hear what you guys have to hear about this...I'm a level 57 rogue and have started dueling with a friend of mine online. I'm your classic 30/8/13 build - using Searing Blade and Thrash right now (waiting on barman shank, haven't had time to solo it yet).

I decided to go toe to toe with my buddy and then go PvE with him just to see the difference of builds...he's a mace stun build (not sure the exacts). Now the first thing I noticed when I met this guy...was he was wearing cloth. I was laughing so hard at him saying "what are you doing! Cloth is for mages, silly rabbit!"......

Damn did I get owned.

With his +fire gear, a volcanic hammer and bonechill hammer with fiery enchants (I have a HUGE respect for these enchants now)...I got raped silly. Even in PvE, the pure speed at which he could kill was amazing. Seeing all those numbers from procs/fire, it was insane.

Has any of you seen this or tried this? I'm *seriously* considering trying it out, but it's gonna be costly (25g for respec, 4g for hammer - probably go searingblade/hammer for the beginning, and god knows how much for 2 fiery enchants...)...and I've never tried a combat build. Now that I'm reaching almost level 58, grinding is gonna be pretty much pointless so I'm not sure I need the ambush build. Until they start getting battlegrounds in, maybe a mace build is the way to go for pve instances....

Anyone?

[Ladro]

mayb your skill is just much lower then his..

[Watzit2ya]

Ive heard of a few people trying the "Fiery Rogue" but most get smashed because of the cloth offering god-awful defense. Havent got to fight one. The stats you would lose from using mainly + fire damage cloth gear is insane, the Stamina, and agility you would lose would be tremendous. You would almost do less damage overall because of a lack of crits, and you take a tremendous amount of more damage, you have drastically less absorb, and a lot less chance to dodge.

In a 1v1 fight with your spec you should have NP getting the jump on him and then it should be down hill for him from there. But you never know till you try it! Tell me how it works out :P

[RubiksCube]

I don't see a way a cloth wearing mace rogue can even come close to beat a leather wearing dagger rogue, considering the amount of agi you get from good leather gear he sacrifices a lot of damage/dodge%/crit% for damage that relies on his procs only.

Maybe you just didnt fight him like you'd fight a cloth wearer or weren't taking it to serious seeing as how you were still laughing at him for wearing cloth.

[Traumatize]

I don't see a way a cloth wearing mace rogue can even come close to beat a leather wearing dagger rogue

What are you implying? :P

[SandDemon]

1) I'm pretty damned skilled. I use everything in my arsenal during pvp - tea, gouge, vanish, blind. it was a pretty close match-up just because even though i could frontload such high damage in one hit (if I got it - using distract on an ambush thief makes it real hard), soon as combat started he'd vanish/cheapshot immediately - and that's a few seconds of pure rapage. I'm really less concerned about his pvp ability, but more of his pve ability anyways since I know I wouldn't go cloth in pvp.

2) He's not sacrificing that much. At level 60, you can get some really nice enchants and mix the gear a bit. If I remember right, he used a helm of fire and like 5 items of fiery damage - the rest is your standard +crit/agil/stam items. He's also using the slots that really dont give much in the way of stats anyways.

Going off pure memory:
bonechill hammer (ice and fiery enchant)
Volcanic Hammer (big fire and fiery enchant)
Green Lens of Fiery Wrath (+32 fire, +10stam) - switches to helm of fire for duels
Some fiery wrath belt (+24fire)
Fire Striders (+22fire, +15fr)
Mageflame cloak (+15 fire,+10fr)
Flameweave Cuffs of Fiery Wrath (+15fire,+10fr)
= +108 fire, +10sta (my math might be off)

The rest was standard thiefy gear, like devilsaur, blackhand, etc. With enchants on those, he's really not sacrificing that much - especially for a level 58. So granted if he uber gear, this probably wasn't a smart build...but when you're seeing over 200 damage every 4 hits or so (easily, one time I took all procs on the first 3 hits..OW), that's quite impressive...

I bid on a volcanic hammer, I'll see how this fares out if I can find some of these things. Anyone on Ner'zhul want to make a donation to see it work? :)

[Ladro]

I'm pretty damned skilled. I use everything in my arsenal during pvp - tea, gouge, vanish, blind.

U dont have to be skilled for that ^^

[RubiksCube]

What I'm implying was that a dagger rogue will most likely be able to pull of a win vs a mace rogue anyways, but when the mace rogue is wearing cloth which WILL in some way sacrifice agi, no matter how much, it shouldnt be even close.

It maybe "Teh Uber" IF he gets his procs, but thats the entire problem basically, he focusses his built around proc chances.

Fiery Enchant procs a lot, I'll give you that, but I still don't like relying on a % chance.

A dagger rogue on the other hand relies on backstab crits and the chance for a crit on backstab is pretty high with talents.

I was NOT trying to imply he sucks in the PvP department, my guess is he was suprised how well it went for the other rogue. I'm pretty sure it would just take some training and that rogue pretending to be a fire-mage shouldnt be a problem for a dagger rogue who's "pretty damned skilled" though.

[eo]

RubiksCube, have you dueled a Fire Rogue? or are you just theorycrafting? Unless you have proof of your information about how such and such template can beat someone else's I say STFU. The original poster at least dueled this template while the rest of you are flat out talking without experience. Either find someone with this template and duel them or make it yourself and see how it does, dont kneejerk react with 'blah blah blah my epenis is big blah blah i know more than you blah blah blah".

There were tons of different and creative templates in Shadowbane that totally switched the way people thought. I remember people dogging those templates like you guys are here but then everyone found out those templates rocked and switched over to them.

dont get me wrong, I have no idea about how good the fire rogue template/build is but Im not gonna act like I do because my brainless anyone-can-do-it dagger build is woopin up on people.

Personally I could see this type of template working well for certain bosses who are subject to 1 type of elemental DMG. Raid leader says "alright rogues, this guy's weakness is frost, so I need you to get your frost gear on and I need the enchanters in the guild to put the proper enchants on their weapons so we can drop this mob". but who knows, its all just theory ATM.

[Anonymous]

Hey EO:

Original Poster asked for opinions. RubiksCube stated his.

He did not state that he plays a dagger build rogue, neither that his penis is of extreme size.

If you cannot life with somebody stating an opinion, i suggest you should go life in a country where "freedom of speech" is not enforced.

I do not see the big deal your making about cube saying that he does not see a way how this could have worked.

I suggest you calm down a little.

[Watzit2ya]

Eo Said
""There were tons of different and creative templates in Shadowbane that totally switched the way people thought.""


Anyone who brings Shadowbane into a conversation immediatly loses ALL credit they had, or may have obtained in the future.

[RubiksCube]

Jeez, a lot of people in this forum need to calm down a lot.

I quote from the original post


Alright, I want to hear what you guys have to hear about this...

I wasn't dissing anyone or showing off my superior skills. In fact my quoting him how he says he's "pretty damn skilled" was my way of saying I'd liked a more modest form of stating it.

Of course, my thoughts come from theory as I have never dueled a fiery rogue. It's thought and theory based on ingame knowledge though.

Agi based stun rogues with maces can beat agi based crit rogues with daggers AND the other way around.

In my experience the mass stun works better against armored targets than the dagger crit, whereas the dagger crit works better against cloth targets than the stun mace.

The only thing I was saying though was that I THINK (as in "it is my impression") it should only require some training and you should beat a cloth wearing rogue.

Of course that's theory and of course that's only my opinion, but that's all he asked for right?

I didnt see no sign anywhere that says "Only answer if you have dueled a +fire dmg, cloth wearing, fiery proccing mace rogue".

You know why? Because chances are that he wouldnt have gotten any answer at all if there was such a sign.

Of course, you stating "my" dagger based rogue is an "anyone can do it" build as opposed to the mass stun "cheapshot - sinister strike - kidneyshot" build the fire rogue was using, while you obviously have NO clue about my talent build, shows that you have, indeed, no clue.

[eo]

First of all this is a Forum of Nurfed, a guild from SHADOWBANE, so I guess they dont know much since that was the game they started in...


Of course, my thoughts come from theory as I have never dueled a fiery rogue.

My point was made. Have a good days boys.

[eo]

Also Shadowbane more than any game before or after had the most options with what you could do with each class. I wish WoW had that flexability with the classes.

[Anonymous]

Of course, my thoughts come from theory as I have never dueled a fiery rogue.

My point was made. Have a good days boys.

What exactly was your point? "Do not state your opinion on matters, even though you were asked to?"

If you think that opinions are only viable if you have experienced the exact same situation as the Original Poster, you will:

a.) never get any opinions, because situations will always, hold your breath, be situational.

b.) highly unliked, because you are not even the Original Poster in this case. how you know he didn't want to hear cubes numbers?


If you would have gone Ninja on the ass of the guy who just said :"maybe your not skilled enough" , okay i would have understood.

But Cube was reasonable and you cannot even admit you were a lil' too outrageous. But on the other hand i did not expect a replay at all, and if so one like this.

[eo]

You people are overracting to my wording. I know it wasnt the best but get over it.

I just get a chuckle out of people who talk like they know whats up when they are basing their points on theory.

I have watched stun templates kill dagger templates and what not. Maybe you guys are just wanting to argue? Hell if I know but Cube's info outside of his knowledge about the 'fire rogue' isnt that informative...

Anyways Im done here.

/exits the old woman's section of the forum.

[Traumatize]

Ok, I see where eo is coming from on this one.
But myself I agree with RubiksCube.

DISCLAIMER:
No I have not dueled a fire-rogue.

A well geared Rogue(leather) can get pretty sick crit/dodge chance, so i dont see how, even with alot of fire procs, a fire-rogue can "outdo" the "original" rogue even in the damage department.
And besides that, lets add in the fact that the original Rogue can get his hands on some pretty sick weapons.
Krol blade, Deathstriker, Barman Shanker etc etc.

Not to hijack the thread but...
RubiksCube:
I do believe a Mace Rogue does have more chance, in theory, do take down a dagger counterpart.
Simply because his talents are more geared towards open combat, and not relying as much on stealth.
To throw up some examples;
Blade Flurry, Adrenaline Rush, Riposte, parry/dodge adding talents, weapon specs.

Of course, a rogue using daggers can go for a combat build aswell, but honestly, why pick a dagger over a mace/sword with this kind of build?

[RubiksCube]

Well, I PvE wise I agree with you, cuz mobs instantly turn to face you.

In PvP you can still have a combat built, but implementing daggers into it will give you chances to boost your dps, simply by hitting backstab each time he turns his back on you and a skilled player WILL find ways to get in your back.

That's my view of it. Sure, in a straight up face to face fight a mace rogue WILL win. The thing is a dagger rogue can get some serious burst dps especially on cloth targets.

Actually I'm not all that much pro-dagger or pro-mace, if you have an exceptional dagger drop you might as well use it, same for a sword/mace. There are talentbuilds which dont restrict you to one choice.

Maces/Swords take some utility from you at times, whereas dagger take some damage. Each rogue should either choose what he wants to use or use an addon to change the mainhand weapon and carry a dagger around.

Edit: Oh and btw: there's some sick gear for mace rogues, too ;)

[South]

Isnt better a 30-21-0 (assa/combat) build if you want maces or swords?

[Traumatize]

Isnt better a 30-21-0 (assa/combat) build if you want maces or swords?

I would take Blade Furry, Adrenaline Rush, Aggression and weapon specs anyday over Vigor, Seal Fate, Coldblood and Imp. KS.

RubiksCube:

Yes, on cloth targets dagger wielding rogues will have the upper hand.
What Im talking about is a 1v1 duel, Mace/Sword vs Dagger.
Why? Just because :P

[South]

Isnt better a 30-21-0 (assa/combat) build if you want maces or swords?

I would take Blade Furry, Adrenaline Rush, Aggression and weapon specs anyday over Vigor, Seal Fate, Coldblood and Imp. KS.

Why? I'm probably going to follow 30-21 (coldblood, seal of fate, blade flurry, DW spec) to level up and maybe to raid at 60. Why do you prefer a heavy combat build?

[Traumatize]

Isnt better a 30-21-0 (assa/combat) build if you want maces or swords?

I would take Blade Furry, Adrenaline Rush, Aggression and weapon specs anyday over Vigor, Seal Fate, Coldblood and Imp. KS.

Why? I'm probably going to follow 30-21 (coldblood, seal of fate, blade flurry, DW spec) to level up and maybe to raid at 60. Why do you prefer a heavy combat build?

First and foremost, I just love Adrenaline Rush.
Thats just 15 seconds of pure ownage, every 6minutes.
Got a pally fight coming up?
Switch on Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry and see the mofo face the dirt before he could even lift his finger to push the "Divine blah blah" button.
Aggression is a nice talent too.
Weapon specs are great, especially mace, procs alot.

Imo, the top talents of assa goes alot better with daggers, due to being centered around critical strikes.
My build doesnt really depend as much on critical strikes, and I don't intend to change that.
Sure, I still pick up Malice and Leth. from the assa tree.
Im not saying the assa tree is bad or anything, most of the talents rock, especially Seal Fate.


The Swashbuckler feel about Combat fits my playstyle perfectly though^^

[SandDemon]

Always nice to see your post become a flaming war, only to come back to a normal conversation.

I coughed it up and tried out the build - bought a volcanic hammer, found 3 pieces of fiery wrath, and got fiery enchants for my volcanic hammer and searing blade. Switched my talents to a 21/30/0 build....

It's...well I'm not sure I've decided how I like it or not. The sustained DPS is higher just because it's a combat build, with the mace sinister strikes and such doing more damage than the dagger user...but frontloading or spiking is the power of the build right?

Well the funny part is my build spikes quite a lot....I'll have sustained dps with the maces and then you'll see a bunch of small explosions fire off and it'll look like I just backstabbed him fire. I dont have the god sets of equipment mostly because I'm now broke from the respec, weapons, enchants - but this build does have some promise. The mace stun definately helps with the build since I dont get hit as much in my cloth pieces, although I am tempted to see how the build would fare with 2 searing blades and a dagger crit build....

Which will probably be my next test.
Improved Instant Poison
2 Searing Blades with Fiery Enchants
dagger crit, blade furry, slice and dice, seal fate.....

Think it might be stronger than this mace version. Either way, it's a pretty even match-up so far. I've got more sustained damage than a dagger build, but spike way more than a normal mace build. It's kinda the best of both worlds...with mediocrity. I'm gonna try the dagger build maybe later, gotta find another searing blade though...hmmm

[Watzit2ya]

I did spend a while with the combat/mace spec. It was nice for PvE and although i loved it for PvE, it wasnt that good in PvP. All of the good players would just CC me or manage to get away while adrenaline rush was up. Now against a good pally you are not gonna kill them before they immune with adren rush. You need to muster 1 large hit not many average hits to drop them before they shield.

My best advice is to try both out, I did alot less dps with the combat build, than with the 30/21 build. Cold blood, and seal fate come through alot more often than adrenaline, its nice but just not as good as cold blood imo.

[RubiksCube]

RubiksCube:

Yes, on cloth targets dagger wielding rogues will have the upper hand.
What Im talking about is a 1v1 duel, Mace/Sword vs Dagger.
Why? Just because :P

Well, in 1vs1 duel, I'd still prefer daggers, but thats just me. Basically you can duel a mace rogue like you duel a pally, just gouge and get aways from him to restealth without having to use vanish. That actually works, so you can land a whole lotta more ambushes on people as you would think.

Just be sure to have crippling poison on your main hand dagger and either finish your first move with a rupture or have deadly poison on your 2nd dagger, so he won't be able to bandage on your second way in.

I like to think both builds are pretty much even in 1on1 duels, though getting the jump on someone who's fully prepared for it and may have inspected you before dueling is a whole lot tougher that jumping on another target.

Not to highjack SD's Post though, I'd really like to hear how the fiery dagger rogue will come out, though chances are you'll get the same amount of procs on much more swings, since thats the way procs are balanced.