(Should I roll a) Shadow Priest

[Da'Grim]

Edit: My view on priests have changed so greatly that it's better you just read the next post I've posted and give me feedback on that instead.

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Hmm, I know there allready is a post on slightly the same subject but I think that is kind off falling out of topic. Hope I wont get flamed because I started a new thread (know I will be flamed because of the context :roll:).

Wow Europe realease is coming up and I can't really decide on which class to play. I want to have a caster with good dps and utilities, mainly concentrating on pvp and mainly group fights around 5v5 and bigger.
During beta I've played a mage up to lvl ~40, but I'm not that happy in the class. So next I rolled a priest and leveled him as a Shadow, have'nt played him as much tough.
Thing is a shadow priest seems to be exactly what I'm after - caster with good dps and utilities. So I log in to a few forums and read comments on the class and here my picture of the perfect class becomes utterly crushed and to be honest for a stupid reason IMO.

Let's look at DPS first, I want to have good focus fire dps and here mostly based on my own calculations a Shadow Priest can out dps a mage (cookiecutters template of arc31/fire20 (will use that as example even tough I think my template of fire30/arc21 is better :p)). Sure the mage gets better dps in the 15sec of fame he have turned on arcane power but outside of that. And I think arcpower is overrated anyways, to hard to actually get a full 15sec of casting time in pvp but anyways.
(Note that I'm not arguing about mages AOE damage. Mages are AOE kings.)
Next, lets look at utility: mages got two big ones - frost nova and polymorph. Frost nova is a wonderfull spell in pvp -any kind of pvp. Polymorph is great in smaller pvp fights say up to 5v5 bigger than that, in an actual zerg raid for example, it's almost impossible to have a target sheeped I suspect. Now the shadow priest have fear, dispel, pw:shield and even mana burn. Perhaps the last one is'nt such a biggie but the others is. (Edit: I will play a dwarf priest in retail and just remembered Fear Ward. That can also be a biggie in pvp.)

So then, why should'nt I roll a shadow priest? Main reason it seems is that most players (and espescially "pro players") believe that classes and roles in mmorpg is cut in rock (and perhaps it is so in many mmorpg, but not in wow it seems). No way that a class "designed" for that can be good at this -seems to be a common thinking.

Note that I don't lay any weight on healing, because that's not what I am after. Sure in instances I will heal and heal alot and ONLY focus on healing. In the instance I've done I even really enjoyed healing. BUT in pvp I want to be a damage dealer and I think I have chosed the right class for that. Now debate!

(Also replies like, you should always play what you feel like playing does'nt really help. Offcouse I play what I think is most fun and enjoyable. However, it would'nt be enjoyable to level a shadow priest to 60 and then realise that no one wants to play with me....)

[AzouN]

We've been over this before, here goes :)

When it comes to DPS, a good 31Arc/20Fire mage can and should outdamage a shadow-priest, be it in a burst scenario, 15sec or longer. We have DoTs (SW:P, Flay) and Mind Blast. Now SW:P is _good_, but it isn't exactly burst damage, same goes for flay. I won't argue it being an incredible spell, but it has 2 downsides: '1. Its a DoT, again, no bursting and 2. It has to be channeled. Mind blast has a 1.5s cast and (with talents) 4.5s cooldown. Not exactly burst either. Now, A PoM+AP'ed Pyroblast (even better if it crits and is clearcasted :D), THAT'S DPS ^^ Apart from this, I'm 99.9% certain efficiency calcs have been made a hundred times over and have proven the idea that shadow priests rival mages in terms of DPS completely wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

About utility, lets look at the priests' toolset: Dispell (invaluable), PW:S (ohshit spell, mana costy), Mana Burn (Good), Flay (snare, is channeled so only really good (as I see it) as a finisher when you've won anyways), Silence, Fear Ward if you're a Dwarf.
Mage: Poly, snares in terms of cold, AE gallore, Frost Nova (root), and one thing you forgot which is huge: counterspell with talent (being almost mandatory).
In general, yes, the priest has a greater toolset imo, but depending on the scenario it's actual utility seems severely limited. In a 5v5, it's all super, 'cept maybe for mana burn which you'll hardly have time to cast, and ofcourse the channeled Flay. In a 5v5, mages can utilize frost nova, poly and frost spells snare abilities to a great extent, aswell as counterspell. Given you'll _have_ to have another priest if you're not going to be healing, a mage would be of greater use (although the shadow priest is good) in a 5v5, imo, since fx PW:S has a weakened soul effect which applies for all PW:S'es, and because your healing priest will be dispelling too.
In a zerg scenario, why would you care for tactical offense? It's all about AE damage and fast healing. Besides, zerg scenarios shouldn't be a reason for chosing builds.

As a final, people would probably want to play with you in smallscale duo/trio PvP (if you care to throw a flash heal every now and then ^^) aswell as in 1-2 fullgroups PvP. In 1 fullgroup, there are simply too many good things about each class to choose 2 priests out of 5, regardless of their talent builsd (IMHO).

And, given the endgame raid instances' current difficulty, you'd be worthless in MC/Onyxia/Endgame raid instances to come, I'd reckon.

Just my 2cents :)

-- AzouN

[SoleSteeler]

shadow priests make fast levelers if you're not one to group often, then when you get to a high enough of level, spec holy/disc :)

when i leveled a shadow priest i NEVER dropped any shadow spells in groups... pure healing, but when soloing i was a monster :)

[AzouN]

I think most agree that shadow is the way to go to something like 40+, or maybe even all the way to 60 if you and your team know what you're doing, ie aren't diablo fanboi rookies :D Going holy/disc from the start just doesn't pay off as you'll be soloing a lot when leveling in WoW, if you want to level fast and when you have time to spend. Spirit tap is a must regardless of your spec choice, that's for sure (for leveling).

Again, this if or leveling, and I do believe the initial poster's concern was that of the endgame. As the above poster said it, respec to holy/disc ;)

-- AzouN

[Krissam]

swhen i leveled a shadow priest i NEVER dropped any shadow spells in groups... pure healing, but when soloing i was a monster :)

same, cuz even a shadow priest is a better healer than dd (unless you have a holy specced priest in the group, in which case your healing aren't needed)

[mr.toker]

Sure the mage gives out a higher DPS... but when it comes to duelling priests the thing that really pisses u off is when they fear u... and thats where the dmg over time kicks in, to tell the truth... priests in pvp is all about fear, and their power word shield which isnt even mentioned in ur little calculation up there...

[Ralgedi]

at pve up to lvl 40 i had no problem at all keeping groups alive in dungeons, even when i was quite a few lvl 's lower then the rest in instances, so up to lvl 40 i dont see they point in speccing holy, i only had improwed renew 5/5 rest was in shadow and disc .

Did not make it higher in the beta so i cant comment on 40+ :)

Anyway i enjoy small group pvp the best solo/duo/trio and i belive that a shadow/disc specced priest are very nice in those kind of groups.

As for pve, yeah holy priest are probaly alot better then a shadow priest, but i still belive i will be able to get a group once in a while... :)

Anyway on paper shadow suits my playstyle perfect, but guess ill be wiser when the retail in EU starts :)

[Da'Grim]

Europe beta closed the other day and realease is tomorow, still undecided. :p

Perhaps it's a bit egoistic to make a thread which entire topic is "help me chose a class" -but I hope there will be some posts anyway.

Still I'm undecided between mage and shadow priest. However, after borrowing a guild mates shadow priest ~40 and reading a bit of shadow priests posts and espescially Jumai priest thread thread my view on Shadow priests have changed a bit.

If playing a priest it would be for the utility but still realising my part of the job that is healing. I would like it most in a smaller pvp group 3v3 - 5v5 where utility is more needed or even better yet in a group which had another healer, most of all a holy priest but I think a paladin or druid combined with my offhealing could make it.

I would take the role as a secondary healer and still have great offensive possibilities. Notice even tough this build is a shadowbuild it is not about dps, it is about utility. I do realise priests are healers. However if there is time and need I can support my mates with a few tricks. Silence is offcourse the spell this build is going for and it is a wonderfull spell in pvp, 10seconds is hell of a long time for an enemy caster. Dispell, yeah all priests got this spell, however the healing priest will probably not have much time to actually get around throwing this so it will lay on my side. Mana burn, same thing, a healer won't got the mana nor time so this is also up to the shadow priest. Same goes with Fear. Mind Flay is a high damage spell but most importantly a channeling snare.
As I said I do remember that priests are healers and therefore will remember to throw the occasional renew/flash heal between all my dots, silences, snaring and dispells.

In instances I will most often pick up the job as the main healer. I do realise this to and will probably only focus on healing in instances.

Is this a viable way of playing the priest I ask? In the perfect group I would offcourse want another healer so I could use all my utility, most often tough it will probably healing first and utility second but still.

[Da'Grim]

(Btw this would probably be the build I would go for if chosing to play a shadow priest.

Shadow Mastery
Blackout Rank 5
Improved Shadow Word: Pain Rank 2
Shadow Focus Rank 5
Improved Psychic Scream Rank 2
Improved Mind Blast Rank 2
Mind Flay Rank 1
Shadow Reach Rank 3
Silence Rank 1

Discipline Mastery
Unbreakable Will Rank 5
Martyrdom Rank 2
Improved Power Word: Shield Rank 3
Improved Power Word: Fortitude Rank 2
Focused Casting Rank 1

Holy Mastery
Improved Renew Rank 5
Holy Specialization Rank 5
Spiritual Healing Rank 5
Improved Flash Heal Rank 2

In the shadow tree there's two talents I want to pick up and that is Silence and Mind Flay. Both add in a lot of utility to the priest. The best silence there is in the game and a snare with ok damage (:p).
In the holy I get improved renew wich will be one of the most often throwed healing spells and secondly got improved Flash heal which will be the most often thrown spell. I don't think I'm suffering greatly from not going deeper in to the holy tree.
In the discipline tree tough I do think I miss a few things Improved Mana Burn and Inner Focus most specificly. However in return I get the goodies from the shadow tree, talents that will fit in to my playstyle better.)

[Da'Grim]

I wrote the posts in school before and the post was a bit blurry. Therefore I edited my post all together now that I've gotten home and also posted my changed build.

Thanks for any and all feedback!

[kary]

Thats a nice build. Improved Mana Burn is good, but taking improved flash heal over it makes sense in a small group PvP setting. IIRC you're playing alliance -- it might be a tougher decision for a horde player where pulling the mana out of a paly is important.

You shouldn't run into problems with that spec as long as you have a fairly sizeable mana pool, and someone there to blunt intial AOE damage. Without mental strength or improved PoH you're going to have to be very careful with your AOE healing or lose 1/7th of your mana pool in one spell (though that will still be the most mana efficent way sometimes).

Vs good opponents you might be able to get silence off twice (vs bad ones they should be dead in the 45second cooldown ;), and a few flays (flay is great towards the end of fights when your nearly oom). You'll get a number of mindblasts off, and if your fighting horde your SW:P might stick for awhile as we're usually short on defensive dispellers. Blackout is great, and you'll be able to help with offensive dispelling (the alliance weakness).

You might look at warlocks as well, they're a bit undervalued right now as they haven't raised the de-buff cap yet. Their fear is excellent, dott's are best in game (clumatively anyway), and they work beautifully with priests (curse of shadows etc). Affliction tree lock's with an imp don't need shards, and basically never run out of mana which is a real asset in large group PvP [10v10 etc]. And you could always respec once they shards in PvP (which would happen once the honourable kill system is in).

It's just what you want to do though, go with what feels right.