Seeking Nurfed's Opinion on mass mages..

[Ramius]

Alright, before you simply laugh and dismiss this post please read and consider because I am being serious.

My guild is in the middle of a difficult choice atm, we all are classes we like (why we picked them I guess heh), but recently we were challenged to a 5v5 group PvP in the arena in stranglethorn vale. Of course being decent PvP guild ourselves we agreed and took our best 5 against the best 5 of our challengers.

We took our guilds main warrior who is utterly devistating, a druid (myself, the run away healer! heh), a priest, a shaman, and a rogue. We usually win most pvp encounters even when outnumbered, however this fight was like no other. (we are all 50-52 btw and same with the other side)

When we got to the arena what classes did the challenger pick? 5 mages. Odd combo I thought, but ok, warrior and rogue should 2 hit kill them.

Some people who were watching counted down and we began. Immediately presence of mind polymorphs goes off... 5 of them instantly. My entire team is polymorphed. the mages do a /laugh emote and then open fire on our sheeped priest, he dies very quickly from the arcane missile fireblast spam of 5 mages. Then they pick the next target, then the next and the next. That was the entire battle, 5 on 1, the rest of us were insta sheeped.

Later I looked up in the AH for any possible way to counter mass polymorph, a potion, an ability, anything.. the best that I know of is dispel magic from a priest, however he was insta poly'd and then killed first.

Now this next part didnt actually happen, im just doing a bit of theory work here.. but what if those 5 mages all used swiftness potions and ran into our group and used arcane explosion instant cast. Even though a mage has very low life and dies quickly, if they are ice mages with ice barrier and mana shield and a 200+ damage arcane explosion per mage.. they could be doing 1000+ damage a second to my entire party. Our warrior would die in 4-5 seconds, I would die in 3 seconds, the priest and rogue in 2 seconds, etc.. I am not sure if there would be enough time to actually kill any of the mages in this situation.

It seems that the more mages you add into the "mass mages" theory, the worse it becomes for any other class. With enough mages, 1 click of arcane explosion would finish an area of enemy players before the mass mage group blinked onto your next clump. If any of them was near death there is ice block invulnerability.

We were baffled at the effectiveness of simply massing a single class in group pvp, and are faced with the choice of continueing the characters we enjoy and normally do very well in pvp with, or having the entire guild reroll as mages and form a mage supremacy guild where we would arcane explosion groups of alliance and poly anything else so that we outnumber even larger groups.

Of course I dont want to reroll mage, but the effectiveness of the arena battle and the fact that I havent seen any items to counter poly is a strong case for going straight mages.

I hope some nurfed members wouldent mind sheding a little light on this subject since I know you have been a level 60 pvp guild since closed beta.

[Trixx]

Next time you fight them, select mage #1, assist him to see who he's gonna poly, if he has anyone but you selected, continue till you find the one. Have your mage silence or sheep that one ASAP, meaning you won't get sheeped at the start of the fight. Dispell your group, own them, rinse and repeat.

If they still beat you, post how they did it here, and we'll run the new scenario over =] If you have a warlock, you can use the felhunter to devour magic on any poly'd allies as well.

[Sintor]

Uh, if there was a countdown, how the hell did you and the rogue get poly'd? AFAIK, When you are shapeshifted, you are immune to poly. The rogue could've stealthed during the countdown and you could have either done the same in cat or just stayed in travel/bear. That group would die so fast to you two ravaging their ranks it wouldn't even be funny.

Sap one, gouge one, you and he kill another, then the gouged one, then the standing ones, and so on. They would've been so rattled that their super cheese tactic got screwed that they would have fallen apart instantly. They may have killed one or two of your groupmates with focus fire, but they would be too busy trying to keep you two off of them.

I know you said they PoM'd it, but there is a 1.5s delay after they hit the button, and chances are they used it during the countdown, so you should have taken the initiative and stealthed/shifted.

Yes, mages are effective in zerg combat with AE, but they wouldn't last very long in the middle of a smart zerg. Balance is always important.

[Sintor]

Next time you fight them, select mage #1, assist him to see who he's gonna poly, if he has anyone but you selected, continue till you find the one. Have your mage silence or sheep that one ASAP, meaning you won't get sheeped at the start of the fight. Dispell your group, own them, rinse and repeat.

If they still beat you, post how they did it here, and we'll run the new scenario over =] If you have a warlock, you can use the felhunter to devour magic on any poly'd allies as well.

First trick is a little risky with PoM. He said they all got insta-sheeped, so it's a twitch button mashing contest with no "real" countdown. There are also a lot of groups that could totally smash them using that strat. If pots were allowed, whoever gets unsheeped can down an invuln and then they waste mana trying to kill him. If it's the priest first, they lose.

[Trixx]

Yea, that would cause so much confusion too, that by the time they figure out what to do, poly would wear off your teammates. A plan like theirs is full of holes, and quite predictable just by their pick of classes.

Just in case though, I'd drink a free action potion so you can keep chasing them should they frost nova + blink.

[Tlear]

Funny thing to try is invis pots, just gulp some to break sheep targeting. Problem is with only one dispeller (priest) you gona be hard pressed to have more then 2-3 people active at any one time.

You can also do some cheesy things, like be engineers and use rocket helmets. That thing seems to be pretty buggy though, incredibly retarded too. There is a bomb that does aoe silence and mana burn, they want to cheese with sheep run in invis pots then cycle bombs, gonna waste TONS of arcanite though.

Great thing about alliance is that we can bring in couple paladins + priest. Paladin invulnerability stops sheep, and dispell removes it.

The massed mage aoe zerg is very viable especially with Undead mages who can "I WIN" immune themselves to fear which can normally be used to counter it.

Thinking about this makes me go back and play daoc. Which is scary :(

[Ramius]

If pots were allowed, whoever gets unsheeped can down an invuln and then they waste mana trying to kill him. If it's the priest first, they lose.

Im not an alchemist, could you tell me if this potion of invuln would make you immune to a repoly once they realized you drank it? The potion of limited invulnerability I looked up on thott said it grants you immunity to physical attacks only. Assuming the mages learned and targetted priest last because of the strat you gave so that he cant drink the potion and dispel his group.

The felhunter seems like an awesome counter.. demons cant be poly'd and if the warlock is in the group with the priest then the felhunter will dispel the priest and the priest can dispel everyone else in othergroups. I like this counter. How many times can a felhunter dispel?

How would you fight 5-10 mages all using arcane explosion with 5-10 any other class (except mages heh). The dps the mages would put out if you tried to engage them would be 1-2k area of effect instantly with no cooldown that can be cast over and over. Send in 1 at a time? how does a mixed group of say warrior, rogue, priest, druid, etc... fight that?

[Dendriath]

Could you record your next battle? As lame as it may sound I'd love to see something hilarious as this. What's next? 5 shamans doing the Banana Dance in a 20 totem lightshow? :P

[Jumai]

You're not gonna count on hitting more than 2-3 people with arcane explosion, especially once your opposition realizes what you're up to.

As said above, no reason not to start the encounter stealthed. That makes it a 2v4 to start with assuming you get a sap off, but if you last 15 seconds your other group members should start popping out of poly.

IF you knew this was coming and could arrange it, carrying a violet tragan into the duel (quest mushroom, unlimited use, poisons you for like 25 damage over 9 seconds or something, start "the thirsty goblin" in gadgetzan if you haven't finished the quest already), setting it off during the countdown so poly breaks 3 seconds in. If they're gonna cheese, cheese back. I dunno if there's another way to put a weak dot on yourself but the tragan is easy.

[Trixx]

The felhunter seems like an awesome counter.. demons cant be poly'd and if the warlock is in the group with the priest then the felhunter will dispel the priest and the priest can dispel everyone else in othergroups. I like this counter. How many times can a felhunter dispel?

Felhunter's devour magic removes 1 negative/positive buff every 8 seconds. If a buff is removed, it heals the felhunter for around 800hp.

[Dashiva]

IF you knew this was coming and could arrange it, carrying a violet tragan into the duel (quest mushroom, unlimited use, poisons you for like 25 damage over 9 seconds or something, start "the thirsty goblin" in gadgetzan if you haven't finished the quest already), setting it off during the countdown so poly breaks 3 seconds in.

The dot from that mushroom doesn't break sheep, sap, gouge, or fear. In fact it does nothing anymore except damage you.

Neither does the dot effect from Orc's Blood Fury.

As far as I know this was changed between beta and retail, because I know Blood Fury used to break anything, you could even use it during Sap.

[Sintor]

For the low cost of 1/3 of your life bar!

[Ramius]

The felhunter seems like an awesome counter.. demons cant be poly'd and if the warlock is in the group with the priest then the felhunter will dispel the priest and the priest can dispel everyone else in othergroups. I like this counter. How many times can a felhunter dispel?

Felhunter's devour magic removes 1 negative/positive buff every 8 seconds. If a buff is removed, it heals the felhunter for around 800hp.

So wait.. a felhunter does not counter this mage tactic then. If the felhunter can only dispel once every 8 seconds then the mage can just repoly, and there is no garantee that the dispel would be on the priest. If this mushroom doesnt work, and the felhunter cant dispel fast enough to keep up with polys.. then what is the counter to this 5 mage insta poly strategy? What if you dont have a rogue to stealth and sap them or if they simply use rank 1 arcane explosion to destealth the rogue.

How can you beat it?

[Wyvvy]

back in the invisibility/pyroblast days 5 mages were equal to something like Arthas coming down from Northrend and opening a can ow whoooopa$$ on you.

=)

those were the days!

[Firecrak]

Blood Fury does break sheep...at 30% of your hp cost...which is quiet honestly OUCH.

Your forms are immune to poly, no reason why you can't start in cat or travel, hell even bear.

While this is a cheese tactic by far (they have ample time to prep, choose targets etc) in a normal battlefield this just won't work. Not even with Voicecom. No one is that fast, I don't care how good you are. Then theres resist rates, you could just don some pimp arcane resist gear (i know, it sucks but hey) and maybe hope for a pre-poly smack down. Pots of Invis would work also, as would invuls (i believe u need the greater, not the lesser, which is a bitch to get).

Too bad there are no arcane resist totems/auras in this game, they are seriously needed.

[Palmen]

The felhunter seems like an awesome counter.. demons cant be poly'd and if the warlock is in the group with the priest then the felhunter will dispel the priest and the priest can dispel everyone else in othergroups. I like this counter. How many times can a felhunter dispel?

Felhunter's devour magic removes 1 negative/positive buff every 8 seconds. If a buff is removed, it heals the felhunter for around 800hp.

So wait.. a felhunter does not counter this mage tactic then. If the felhunter can only dispel once every 8 seconds then the mage can just repoly, and there is no garantee that the dispel would be on the priest. If this mushroom doesnt work, and the felhunter cant dispel fast enough to keep up with polys.. then what is the counter to this 5 mage insta poly strategy? What if you dont have a rogue to stealth and sap them or if they simply use rank 1 arcane explosion to destealth the rogue.

How can you beat it?

Bring rouges and Druids

[Trixx]

So wait.. a felhunter does not counter this mage tactic then. If the felhunter can only dispel once every 8 seconds then the mage can just repoly, and there is no garantee that the dispel would be on the priest. If this mushroom doesnt work, and the felhunter cant dispel fast enough to keep up with polys.. then what is the counter to this 5 mage insta poly strategy? What if you dont have a rogue to stealth and sap them or if they simply use rank 1 arcane explosion to destealth the rogue.

The felhunter's devour magic is controlled by the warlock, and never on autocast. which means the warlock can select the priest, and dispell him on his own.

[Ramius]

So wait.. a felhunter does not counter this mage tactic then. If the felhunter can only dispel once every 8 seconds then the mage can just repoly, and there is no garantee that the dispel would be on the priest. If this mushroom doesnt work, and the felhunter cant dispel fast enough to keep up with polys.. then what is the counter to this 5 mage insta poly strategy? What if you dont have a rogue to stealth and sap them or if they simply use rank 1 arcane explosion to destealth the rogue.

The felhunter's devour magic is controlled by the warlock, and never on autocast. which means the warlock can select the priest, and dispell him on his own.

Unfortunately that does nothing to counter the fact that its on a 8 second recast time while poly has a 0 recast time.. and after the first recast of poly the warlock is going to be the first to die before the 8 seconds are up for another devour magic.

[Myrsnipe]

Well, it sounds cheesy. You can relax though, duels and arena fights are synthetic fights, it just doesnt work out that way in real pvp meaning that it wont impact the game too much. And if it gets common, people will prepare for it, as the plan does seem like it's full of open holes.
My guess is that you just got caught with your pants down, no defence against it. just learn from it and be prepeared the next time you see 5x mages :p

[alcaras]

Too bad there are no arcane resist totems/auras in this game, they are seriously needed.

Thank god there aren't. They're needed as much as melee resist totems/auras are...

[Shamiko]

Too bad there are no arcane resist totems/auras in this game, they are seriously needed.

Thank god there aren't. They're needed as much as melee resist totems/auras are...

/agreed

I'm melee and even I know you gotta watch out when it comes to resists. How would you like it if i could chug a "i win" pot, that makes you harmless, and me still able to unleash?

[Inconsiderable]

Two words:

Grounding. Totem.

[Vanadium]

back in the invisibility/pyroblast days 5 mages were equal to something like Arthas coming down from Northrend and opening a can ow whoooopa$$ on you.

=)

those were the days!

damn that woulda been fun :(

i missed those days ...i joined beta right after mages got nerfed.

[IN-QQQQ]

Errrrrr GROUNDING TOTEM???

=)

[Laches]

Well, it sounds cheesy. You can relax though, duels and arena fights are synthetic fights, it just doesnt work out that way in real pvp

Yep. Which is why I've been ice/arcane instead of arcane/fire for over a month now and haven't looked back. It's one thing to perform well in a duel, but quite another to perform well "in the wild."

Oh and yeah. Grounding totem. :) Even though one of the mages could wand it, it still gives you time to do . . . something.

[Ramius]

My guess is that you just got caught with your pants down, no defence against it. just learn from it and be prepeared the next time you see 5x mages :p

Which is what im trying to do with this post, unfortunately most the ideas given so far simply do not work well.

a rogue or two to sap mages just = 1 mage using 75 mana rank 1 arcane explosion to destealth the rogu before anything really bad happens.

Felhunter cannot use devour magic if the warlock himself is poly'd, which means he is basically just as useless as a priest getting poly'd for a dispeller. The warlock cant give his pet commands when poly'd.

Druids shapeshifting is fine to not get poly'd but if your the only one not poly'd it just means your the target of 5 arcane missiles/fireblasts.. if you shift out your sheeped. And as every druid knows, it doesnt matter if your in cat form because you cant really do damage anyway.

If you get lots of druids to counter the mages by using shapeshift, then your still screwed because of arcane explosion x5 when you try to melee the mages. Same with rogues once they are unstealthed, since they have to melee, they will die in a second or two too arcane explosion x5.

Grounding totem is probably the best counter, however you only get to absorb 1 spell and then its gone, the mage can just wand the totem and take 1 second before the insta poly hits, in 1 second there isnt much you can do to stop them from doing an instant cast poly once the totem is delt with.

The more mages they have, the stronger their combo gets since arcane explosion stacks infinitly and healing doesnt. Eventually if you have enough mages, one single click of arcane explosion will be enough to take entire groups of melees down. Those you stay at a range suffer the wrath of poly.

I was hopeing there was some trinket, some potion, something that would temporarily make you immune to polymorph, but it seems blizzard doesnt want a counter to this spell.

[Sintor]

Not true. If two of you are unsheeped that presents a larger problem for them than you realize. Sure that one mage can sit there and level one AE, but then, he's already out of the fight. Similarly, which one does it? The one assigned to poly him? You didn't mention them stacking on one spot, so chances are he could still sap the end-man. Even if he can't, he can run up and gouge one then tear into another. They have no healing and they have to worry that if they do not start eliminating people 5v1, the other sheeps are going to break.

You underestimate the panic you would cause by foiling their little tactic. Making sure all five of you are properly CC'd with zero threat to themselves is all that holds them together. They have no healing capacity and they've already wasted PoM.

Similarly, you don't understand how a grounding totem works. Every ten seconds a buff is applied to your group that will absorb the next negative spell. If this is a DAMAGE spell, then the totem takes the damage into itself and dies. If this is a STATUS effect spell with no damage, the totem stays up to recast the buff. In this case, it would eat all five poly attempts.

[Myrsnipe]

great, horde side has a 5 second lasting answer...

[Lodekim]

Honestly the only reason the rogue stealthing and confusing them like that should work is if they do panic and start messing up, I don't know what a good rogue can do but one of my friends plays a mage and has lost maybe 3 fights to a rogue ever and thats to the one he taught specific anti mage tactics and he still beats the rogue most of the time.

Can a rogue and druid really take out 3 mages before they die? I would think that one good mage should be able to solo the rogue and i don't know about druid vs rogue.

[Sintor]

A good rogue could easily kill one of them, especially if they DONT panic and try to use their old strategy of 5v1. The whole strategy centers around a focus-fire nuke fest. They don't even have to KILL two of them, just make them worry about what happens next. If they stick to the original plan, while they focus 5v1, the druid and rogue could easily pick them off one at a time.

Each mage off of dps is a chance for people to come out of sheep, a higher probability that they won't be able to pile enough dps on the priest to kill it before it dispels other group members, and a chance that one or more of them will die. They have no damage recovery aside from pots. They have to count on the strategy coming off without a hitch, otherwise they will have serious problems facing a group with two healers.

[hellion]

5 paladins.

oh yeah .

[Firecrak]

I propose...5 paladins vs 5 paladins....i think they should finish around june, maybe july if they start now.

[Myrsnipe]

Omg, thats the matchup you'd outa stay away from. It would be like watching the two most booring soccer teams matching up and nobody could care less. 5vs5 palas only can't end period, unless one team all has ironfoe and they all proc/crit at the same time gg.

[Ejsu]

Well, shamans grounding is instant, shouyld that alone be enough to asorb the poly for every last group member? Its not a damaging spell so it doesnt destroy the totem.\


I guess there is always that split second that they may actually hit the button first. They are both instant, and you do get the buff from grounding instantly.

[Inconsiderable]

Grounding totem is probably the best counter, however you only get to absorb 1 spell and then its gone, the mage can just wand the totem and take 1 second before the insta poly hits, in 1 second there isnt much you can do to stop them from doing an instant cast poly once the totem is delt with.

No. The grounding totem will absorb any polymorph until it is destroyed
if they wand it.. it takes like.. 1 second of clicking and 2 seconds until it is destroyed. All time you need.

[Ramius]

Grounding totem is probably the best counter, however you only get to absorb 1 spell and then its gone, the mage can just wand the totem and take 1 second before the insta poly hits, in 1 second there isnt much you can do to stop them from doing an instant cast poly once the totem is delt with.

No. The grounding totem will absorb any polymorph until it is destroyed
if they wand it.. it takes like.. 1 second of clicking and 2 seconds until it is destroyed. All time you need.

Unless of course one of the mages tosses a rank 1 fireblast as his grounding totem killer, then sheeps. The time to do this would be delayed by 1 second since the spell bar would need to refresh. So grounding totem would buy 1 second. I doubt anything could be done by then.

[Wyvvy]

back in the invisibility/pyroblast days 5 mages were equal to something like Arthas coming down from Northrend and opening a can ow whoooopa$$ on you.

=)

those were the days!

damn that woulda been fun :(

i missed those days ...i joined beta right after mages got nerfed.

yeah, we could 1 shot kill most classes =p well that is a combo of critc pyroblast/fire blast but they're pretty much instant.

[Selm]

palas can counter the mage combo easily
especially if you have 2 of them
the palas invuln immediately

and they have 12 seconds to continuosly dispel the poly's while you get your shit together and counter the mages
actually 24 seconds if the palas take turns
and yah a rogue should def be present and vanish when it kicks off
after the poly is dispelled a few times correct me if im wrong but wont it be useless for a few min, as the time it lasts becomes less and less the more polyed

[rjah]

It seems to me that the only thing you really need to do is get a warrior or priest to live through the initial Poly. They can drop a PBAoE fear, and you will have plenty of time to unpoly.

I woudl also like to mention purge. If they are retarded enough to PoM before the countdown (and you know they did) why not just purge it off of them? Or dispell it off of them? It can be dispelled, and it can be purged. Just like NS can be, etc. How happy do you think that would make them?

Purge + Grounding + PBAoE Fear + Fellhound = win.

Your only other bet is to all use deviate fish and hope the mages think you all died at once (feign death effect, but it is random). Then jump up and own them (ok I was joking, but if someone falls for that I am going to laugh).

Seriously, no counterspell options? Imp counter = silence. No shadow spec priest options (also /w silence)? Mages are a 1 trick pony. You just need to stop they only form of, well, useability. And that is casting.

You could even bring a freaking lock/w succubus, and just charm one. Thats 1 CC + sap = 2 CC, more than enough /w a ground etc.

I really don't see the issue with this fight. The more balanced the group, the better off you are.

[Myrdin]

You can also have a stealthed rogue with:
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=5224

Thats what we did against that same tactic, the rogue unsheeped the priest who dispelled.

The only annoying thing is that it requires engineering, has 10 charges and involves doing a quest to get the schematic.

[diZpenZer]

How about grounding totem for a tauren shaman whilst rushing towards with War Stomp, if u have 2 tauren shamans u then have a 4 sec stun,and purges + earth shocks wich ensures noe mora instacast polys`? Add in 2 fira novas during the stun and theyre a bit low on HP also.

Depends on gettin in the Grounding and reaching the mages tho....does a tremor totem wake party from poly? In that case one shaman could drop Grounding and the other Tremor, thats 3 targets for the mages, and theyre on a one sec cooldown, maybe enough for the tremor totem to wake the group ?

Its not i situation any of us is likely to encounter,but an interesting post anyhow.

diZpenZer

[tradewindrider]

Since they have 5 mage, how about 5 shammy for your team?(yea too bad you gonna sit out since you are a druid)

1. Grounding Totem
2. Charge in!
2. NS(While Charging)
3. Chain Lighting(Instra)
5. Earth Shock(Instra)
6. Fire Nova Totem
7. Eart Shock (Finish off the fresh)

Shammy should focus fire and this might give you guys a chance.