OK.. The Final PvP Rogue Discussion

[PaJaMa]

Overall considering Group and Solo PvP Which builds are the most effective.. Is Thaloc still going to sport the ass/combat SS build, is Kintoun going to support a dagger build? Which gets the job done the best in PvP.. How hard is it to line up a Cheapshot and when fighting rogue vs rogue which is better... Let's get it on.

:D

[Rhoh]

Stabface probably has a pretty hawt build too. He's combat build, not Assassination / Subtlety. Stab, care to post your build?

Rhoh

[Rahvin]

thats not really a fair question. theyre both good at what they do, but what they do isnt the same thing.

kintouns build uses stealth to get behind enemy lines and take out mages/priests

Thalocs build is frontal fighter who just concentrates on dealing damage as quickly as possible to help support the warriors and such

[Real]

PvP at about 1v1 - 10v10 Rogues are good but once battle escelate into big battles Rogues dont do as well as some of the other classes.

[Jumai]

For PvP, stabface was running seal fate + preparation. The general plan is cheapshot, vanish, cheapshot, ss, cbevic, prep, vanish, cheapshot, ss as much as you can get away with and cbevisc. You don't need to hit from stealth, you get two vanishes, but you only get to prep once in 10 minutes. If you want to run this build, I would be sorely tempted to run 3/5 Seal Fate and 2/2 Improved SS. Be aware that this is very much what I call a process build, it is designed to do one thing by executing your skills in a certain order, anything that interferes with that weakens you immensely. I personally deem this less than optimal for group pvp, since after the first time you chainstun shank someone, you are a sad panda and have to wait for your timers to line up again. It's great at duels and ganking, if that's what you're into.

Myself, for pvp I am leaning towards seal fate + blade flurry. Granted BF is more of a pve talent, but the other combat talents are not. Improved SS, precision, and dual weild spec are very strong raw damage output increases, you will have to buy 3 in gouge or dodge unfortunately. I lean towards gouge, it is VERY strong in select situations + I fear overpower.

Lethality is too strong to ignore right now. You simply cannot compete using any build without lethality. The first 15 points of assassination are the best, so no matter where you choose to stack your points, there is no reason to not have the 5 malice, 3 eviscerate, and 5 lethality points. Contrary to logical thought, this is ESPECIALLY true of crit-dependant backstab rogues, even though you would think pure combat/sub would offer better results by digging deeper into sub. Trust me, you need lethality.

[Kintoun]

Yes I will be going 13 sub, 8 comb, rest in ass for seal fate and use daggers. I don't want a prep build cause I won't 1v1 as much as group PVP. I also don't want to be a front lines rogue since no matter what anyone says we CANNOT take hits and waste a preist mana.

IMO the dagger crit build gives me max damage yielding the best PVP build, but the worst PVE build (I'll 24/7 be taking aggro and can't AE). Sub/prep relies on stuns over damage, which in group PVP I don't have time to stand around, I'd rather deal mass burst damage AND insane sustained damage. No matter what I'll always have someones back in group PVP unless I'm the only one left.

I'll be posting my final exact build with explanations for everything once OB comes out and I can tweak my build to finalize it.

[Evolox]

The build I will use will rely on seal fate more than anything. This being said, do you think it would be better to get dagger spec or improved ambush? Definetely going daggers, more attacks, more crits, more combo points. Just not sure about these last 13 points should go...

[Kintoun]

The build I will use will rely on seal fate more than anything. This being said, do you think it would be better to get dagger spec or improved ambush? Definetely going daggers, more attacks, more crits, more combo points. Just not sure about these last 13 points should go...
If you go seal fate don't forget all your ambush crits give you 2 combo points. Thats what makes the dagger crit build so powerful. One ambush and 1 backstab generate 4 combo points in 2 strikes/1 energy bar over 50% of the time. Then 4pt coldblood evis for 3k damage in under 3 secs.

Priest fear is a huge disadvanage for ambush users however, which is why with this build I'm def going undead. Even if the immunity duration is now shorter with the new racial abilities.

[Evolox]

Thank you. Undead is the way to go, even if the duration is shorter. Its better than getting feared all the time. It just sounds like Blizz is gonna make you use some skill and know when to use it. :wink:

[Talanos]

Kintoun, do you think you would run into any problems if the first ambush doesn't crit? I don't know how often that would happen but would it just be delaying the inevitable (owning a cloth caster) or losing the fight?

[Kintoun]

Kintoun, do you think you would run into any problems if the first ambush doesn't crit? I don't know how often that would happen but would it just be delaying the inevitable (owning a cloth caster) or losing the fight?
With talents and raw crit, the ambush crits 65% of the time and backstab crits 50% of the time. If I MUST get a crit I can coldblood ambush. Either way it's rare for me to have neither crit leaving me with 2 combo points. When that happens I'd prolly use a thistle tea (gives energy) and backstab twice more real quick if it's really needed.

[fortysixn2]

The build I will use will rely on seal fate more than anything. This being said, do you think it would be better to get dagger spec or improved ambush? Definetely going daggers, more attacks, more crits, more combo points. Just not sure about these last 13 points should go...
If you go seal fate don't forget all your ambush crits give you 2 combo points. Thats what makes the dagger crit build so powerful. One ambush and 1 backstab generate 4 combo points in 2 strikes/1 energy bar over 50% of the time. Then 4pt coldblood evis for 3k damage in under 3 secs.

Priest fear is a huge disadvanage for ambush users however, which is why with this build I'm def going undead. Even if the immunity duration is now shorter with the new racial abilities.


I see some obvious flaws in this situation. First off, Ambush and Backstab are 60 energy each. So if you open with a Ambush, you have 40 energy and need to wait for a tick of regain in order to backstab. Lets say, the caster is a complete moron and stands there (not running away, or facing you) while you regain and lets you backstab them. You now have 0 energy. Evis costs 35 energy, so you now have to wait TWO ticks in order hit your 4 pt evis (depending on if your ambush/backstab actually crit'd, it could be 2 points). If the caster is standing there not trying to frost nova, aoe fear you, run away, you can then hit your evis. I missed the part where you did 3k dmg in 3 seconds. I also missed the part where the target was immobile and wouldn't be reacting to what you were doing (since they were never stunned, and you would have to rely on crip poison to proc). A mage can easily frost nova after the intial ambush, then blink away. A priest could could cast insta aoe fear, shield him self, or even start running away while dispelling crip posion. A druid could insta cast heal, or insta cast travel form run away. A shaman could insta cast heal, drop bind/poison cleansing totem and run away. A warlock would have time to seduce. They would not have time do this if they were locked down with a stun.

Now, is your build deadly? Yes. Is it the best PvP build? Maybe if you actually did 3k damage in 3 seconds it may be, but you don't. A Prep/CB blood isn't far off from what you just did. Only difference, I can get off a 5 point, CB /evis while the caster is stuned. Often times before cheapshot even wears off (depending on if you took imp cheapshot, and even faster if you took hemorage).