Warlocks or Priests?

[Mashton]

i was condidering what i was going to play come Eu retail.....

I was wondering what class has the better Dot over all.

Considering i would be making a shadow spec priest healing would not be number 1 on my list of things to do in combat. However as a warlock you get infernals and also dots, tough choice or is it?

[Watzit2ya]

Do you want to heal at all? Or do you really just care about the dot/damage utility

[Mashton]

Just damage really ;), although the ability to heal would be usful damage is my main aim!

[Krissam]

priest get an extra dot (which also heals yourself) as undead.

and if they go shadow, they should be very meen, but i still think warlock will have the highest dps.

[Watzit2ya]

Its pretty simple, if you would rather have healing as a backup but have slightly less options on the damage side go priest. If you want slightly diverse damage, and soulstones, and a pretty decent pet ( at least for PvE ) Go Warlock. Soulstones are invaluable for whipes. Dont take my advice though, I dont even play a priest/warlock, but I have a few really good guildies who are 60 priests and warlocks.

[Mashton]

quote Envy


I miss shadow a LOT... I mean, it's addicting and an excellent pvp tool (don't take that to mean they are uber... a shadow priest is still by DPS standards, a watered down warlock with no pet).


Hrm any one else think this?

[Microdave]

I tend to disagree with the statement that warlocks will be stronger in a damage dealing sense. Assuming an excellent talent setup a priest can dominate an enemy through status effects and self-buffs.

Keep in mind I play a rogue and only have a vew low level priest and warlock, but from a PvP standpoint Warlocks are fleshies, in other words they seem to pose absolutely no threat to me at all, I destroy warlocks about 5-8 levels higher than me and this is true even when they jump ME. Priests however seem to have some staying power. I find myself being mind-controlled and walked off the nearest cliff as they shield and heal themselves then assault me from afar. I have slaughtered many priests and I kill them even when much higher level than me when I get the initiative, but when one sees me first and decides to attack, I have had a low success rate.

Their status effects make them stronger imo.

[Envie]

Just damage really ;), although the ability to heal would be usful damage is my main aim!

Warlocks have higher DPS, by far, regardless of DoTs.

You answered your own question. Please go warlock as you'd be a priest out of mana when your group needed healing from all the 'damage' focus you'd have.

:roll:

-

[Envie]

I tend to disagree with the statement that warlocks will be stronger in a damage dealing sense. Assuming an excellent talent setup a priest can dominate an enemy through status effects and self-buffs.

<snip>

Their status effects make them stronger imo.

Please, play a priest and warlock to 60 before you make statements like these. "Do the math" if you insist, but I promise you warlocks outdamage priests AND they have the pet. Your problem is, you've probably never gone up against a well played warlock.

A shadow priest is pretty simple and yes, has lots of tricks and defensive tactics, but excuse me for just one moment to remind you:

PRIESTS WERE DESIGNED TO HEAL.

If you want "Teh awesome UBAR pk template of DOOM" please play something else and research your facts first. This kind of garbage doesn't belong on Nurfed forums and sounds more like Blizzard General forum cesspool arguments.

If you're here, it's because you want to play a class smart, not because you're looking to be the "Pwnz0r Priest of Whoopass."

Priests are healers, first and foremost and regardless of how awesome you think shadow priests are, when you're invited to a group, it will be to HEAL, not to Mind Flay, Mind Blast and jackass around with your subpar dps spells. Warlocks and Mages are the dps role, learn this and understand it.

I played shadow priest this time around, after playing a pure holy/disc priest in beta. I assure you, the shadow priest does NOT outdamage the other two pure caster classes. Play them instead please. Save the healing class for those who do it well.

-

[Envie]

quote Envy


"I miss shadow a LOT... I mean, it's addicting and an excellent pvp tool (don't take that to mean they are uber... a shadow priest is still by DPS standards, a watered down warlock with no pet). "


Hrm any one else think this?

My name... is Envie. Not Envy. You will never understand why.

EDIT: Your location says France, surely you know the meaning!

- 8)

[Rekuul']

Warlocks suck =(

-Rek

[Lustt]

just because mashton lives in france doesnt mean he has culture :]

assume nothing envie :D

[Prometheus]

I tend to disagree with the statement that warlocks will be stronger in a damage dealing sense. Assuming an excellent talent setup a priest can dominate an enemy through status effects and self-buffs.

<snip>

Their status effects make them stronger imo.

Please, play a priest and warlock to 60 before you make statements like these. "Do the math" if you insist, but I promise you warlocks outdamage priests AND they have the pet. Your problem is, you've probably never gone up against a well played warlock.

A shadow priest is pretty simple and yes, has lots of tricks and defensive tactics, but excuse me for just one moment to remind you:

PRIESTS WERE DESIGNED TO HEAL.

If you want "Teh awesome UBAR pk template of DOOM" please play something else and research your facts first. This kind of garbage doesn't belong on Nurfed forums and sounds more like Blizzard General forum cesspool arguments.

If you're here, it's because you want to play a class smart, not because you're looking to be the "Pwnz0r Priest of Whoopass."

Priests are healers, first and foremost and regardless of how awesome you think shadow priests are, when you're invited to a group, it will be to HEAL, not to Mind Flay, Mind Blast and jackass around with your subpar dps spells. Warlocks and Mages are the dps role, learn this and understand it.

I played shadow priest this time around, after playing a pure holy/disc priest in beta. I assure you, the shadow priest does NOT outdamage the other two pure caster classes. Play them instead please. Save the healing class for those who do it well.

-
Finally someone that shares my exact thoughts :)

[Mashton]

Hey since moving to paris i think ive become very cultured, ( cheers ant ;) ), Interesting hrmmmm choices choices.

[Straem]

Shadowpriest > warlock imo

But Shadowpriest will be nerfed soon I think. I imagine they will do something like put the imp shield lower in the tree so you cant have imp shield, imp fear, silence all in the same spec. (Shadow/Disc combo)

Thats what makes priests overpowered atm. Being a Disc/Holy priest I have no problem with this happening. I cant stand seeing a priest nuke in my group while I am blowing all my mana healing.

If you want damage dont even look at the god damn priest because if they nerf my disc line making me lose any of the toys i love Ill come to your house and kill your pets!

seriously though, I would be so pissed if they made so i lost imp shield or they nerfed it.

Shadowpriest IS fun and it IS almost unbeatable in duels. If thats what you want go for it. But no matter what you hear about how good their heals are, your not going to drop 3k+ heals. Will you outdamage a warlock? In shadowform with proper gear you just might. You will only be nuking though, since you cant heal or even dispel I believe.

[Envie]

Shadowpriest IS fun and it IS almost unbeatable in duels. If thats what you want go for it. But no matter what you hear about how good their heals are, your not going to drop 3k+ heals. Will you outdamage a warlock? In shadowform with proper gear you just might. You will only be nuking though, since you cant heal or even dispel I believe.

I will accept that argument. :wink:

Here's the thing... in ONE vs. ONE duels, a well played shadow priest is indeed pretty lethal, but is that what PvP in WoW is about? No... it's rarely EVER a fair 1v1 same level fight. This isn't a game of dueling, so having the most uber template doesn't mean squat. It's how well you play your character.

I think someone who goes through all the trouble/effort to build a high damage shadow priest in full shadow gear is really pushing things and you're right... they can't afford to cast a single heal or dispel.. they are basically a watered down mage or warlocks. So why the hell go priest in the first place? *Boggle* :roll:


-

[Devilnaut]

"A shadow priest is pretty simple and yes, has lots of tricks and defensive tactics, but excuse me for just one moment to remind you:

PRIESTS WERE DESIGNED TO HEAL. "


The shadow tree is not a player mod. Shadow priests were designed to do damage.


"Please, play a priest and warlock to 60 before you make statements like these. "Do the math" if you insist, but I promise you warlocks outdamage priests AND they have the pet. Your problem is, you've probably never gone up against a well played warlock. "


Are you sure about that? I'd be surprised to find out that warlocks outdamage shadowpriests. Even so, DPS isn't the be-all-end-all of pvp as shadowpriests get plenty of other very powerful tricks like dispell, snare, and silence.


"Priests are healers, first and foremost and regardless of how awesome you think shadow priests are, when you're invited to a group, it will be to HEAL, not to Mind Flay, Mind Blast and jackass around with your subpar dps spells. Warlocks and Mages are the dps role, learn this and understand it. "


Shrug. It seems you're thinking solely in terms of high level instances. How is a shadowpriest a "Watered down mage or warlock" anyway? And who says the game is not about one on one? IMO the game is about whatever you want it to be. Not everybody wishes to grind a shadow priest 1-60, respec holy, do instances for months to get geared out, then hop into zerg PvP.

Here is the way I see it: for the solo pvper, shadowpriests are hands-down awesome. I don't think there's a class they will lose to in a duel (assuming all other factors are equal) and for solo pking they are very lethal.

However, and I guess this is where you're drawing your opinions from, they really have no place in instance groups. Warlock is better because they don't run out of mana and have AE's (silence, mindflay, dispell OTOH are way less useful in a PvE situation). For 5 on 5 pvping though, if you already have a healer priest, I don't think it's *that* crazy to consider a shadowpriest as a valid member (I'd probably take one over a lock, perhaps not a mage though).

[Straem]

"if you already have a healer priest, I don't think it's *that* crazy to consider a shadowpriest as a valid member (I'd probably take one over a lock, perhaps not a mage though).


I agree with this statement. Provided the 2nd priest will save at least half their mana to back me up with heals should I require it. I know the priests Ive ran with were full shadow and I had no problem since they wouldnt mind adhering to this quest.

[Jumai]

A warlock has 3 DOTs, a shadowpriest has 1 (+ 1 on a long timer if you're undead). While a shadow priest that mana dumps, using mind blast at every opportunity, can for about 30 seconds pull more raw, single-target DPS than the warlock, add a second mob to the equation and suddenly the priest can't even compete. If you're nuking for efficiency using just pain and flay, a warlock will outdamage you withi his 3 DOTs + pet.

While the shadow priest can and is played as a nuking class, it's only even remotely logical on paper. They don't have the range of the other nukers, and they don't have AE, and they can't stand up to melee. A rogue, warlock, mage, or hunter will come out on top every time in a real scenario.

[Envie]

A warlock has 3 DOTs, a shadowpriest has 1 (+ 1 on a long timer if you're undead). While a shadow priest that mana dumps, using mind blast at every opportunity, can for about 30 seconds pull more raw, single-target DPS than the warlock, add a second mob to the equation and suddenly the priest can't even compete. If you're nuking for efficiency using just pain and flay, a warlock will outdamage you withi his 3 DOTs + pet.

While the shadow priest can and is played as a nuking class, it's only even remotely logical on paper. They don't have the range of the other nukers, and they don't have AE, and they can't stand up to melee. A rogue, warlock, mage, or hunter will come out on top every time in a real scenario.

Thanks Jumai, I was starting to think I was losing a lopsided argument here! :wink:

Just kidding, but seriously, people should play whatever makes them happy and not focus on numbers and mathmatical equations and tweaking templates down to the nitty gritty percents. Play what -feels- right and be good at it. I have nothing against well played shadow priests, I ran around with one in beta (Hessian) who was simply amazing. The only problem I have is with players who really believe the shadow priest can be a higher dps and pvp master at 60 than the warlock or the mage when it's clearly comparing apples and oranges and trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Priests are healers. The shadow priest is a freak of nature nuking hybrid that runs out of mana for heals! *evil grin* :twisted:


-

[Microdave]

I tend to disagree with the statement that warlocks will be stronger in a damage dealing sense. Assuming an excellent talent setup a priest can dominate an enemy through status effects and self-buffs.

<snip>

Their status effects make them stronger imo.

Please, play a priest and warlock to 60 before you make statements like these. "Do the math" if you insist, but I promise you warlocks outdamage priests AND they have the pet. Your problem is, you've probably never gone up against a well played warlock.

A shadow priest is pretty simple and yes, has lots of tricks and defensive tactics, but excuse me for just one moment to remind you:

PRIESTS WERE DESIGNED TO HEAL.

If you want "Teh awesome UBAR pk template of DOOM" please play something else and research your facts first. This kind of garbage doesn't belong on Nurfed forums and sounds more like Blizzard General forum cesspool arguments.

If you're here, it's because you want to play a class smart, not because you're looking to be the "Pwnz0r Priest of Whoopass."

Priests are healers, first and foremost and regardless of how awesome you think shadow priests are, when you're invited to a group, it will be to HEAL, not to Mind Flay, Mind Blast and jackass around with your subpar dps spells. Warlocks and Mages are the dps role, learn this and understand it.

I played shadow priest this time around, after playing a pure holy/disc priest in beta. I assure you, the shadow priest does NOT outdamage the other two pure caster classes. Play them instead please. Save the healing class for those who do it well.

-

I definitely didn't deserve such a bitch-out for stating my opinion, if you care about these forums being civilized unlike the general forums as you put then act like it yourself.

On to other things, I can only judge from my experience and even though I wrote this earlier apparently it didn't get through to some people. Yes, I AM looking for an excellent PvP build and I AM looking for an incredible combo to kill opposing faction members...if your here looking at class forums I think you are along similar motives or just generally interested. In my PvP experience --- and it has been extensive --- warlocks die, and fast. I am going to start one and see how well I fare in PvP with one. The shadowpriest I currently have is excellent but the mana efficiency is ridiculous, in 1 on 1 pvp it doesn't necessarily matter but yes it definitely matters on larger-scale attacks.

Also, with enslave demon being pushed up to 5 minutes warlocks get a very nice end-game pet.

There is a lot of talk about shadowpriests not having any mana left over to heal, but warlocks cant heal at all...aside from stones they can conjure (and the pet stuff).

It isn't apples and oranges because its all about the same topic: PvP with a caster class. YES they fight differently, otherwise there would be no debate, but NO they aren't completely different, the two can be compared. I would be willing to bet that a 60 shadowpriest would be able to kill a 60 warlock in 1 on 1 pvp, but in a larger-scale situation this would not be the case. (Also the priest may die afterward from pending DoT).

The best reference I have is my RL friend who is an extremely high level warlock (~60), he claims he can beat an equal level priest, even if they are specced with shadow.

[fer]

I tend to disagree with the statement that warlocks will be stronger in a damage dealing sense. Assuming an excellent talent setup a priest can dominate an enemy through status effects and self-buffs.

<snip>

Their status effects make them stronger imo.

Please, play a priest and warlock to 60 before you make statements like these. "Do the math" if you insist, but I promise you warlocks outdamage priests AND they have the pet. Your problem is, you've probably never gone up against a well played warlock.

A shadow priest is pretty simple and yes, has lots of tricks and defensive tactics, but excuse me for just one moment to remind you:

PRIESTS WERE DESIGNED TO HEAL.

If you want "Teh awesome UBAR pk template of DOOM" please play something else and research your facts first. This kind of garbage doesn't belong on Nurfed forums and sounds more like Blizzard General forum cesspool arguments.

If you're here, it's because you want to play a class smart, not because you're looking to be the "Pwnz0r Priest of Whoopass."

Priests are healers, first and foremost and regardless of how awesome you think shadow priests are, when you're invited to a group, it will be to HEAL, not to Mind Flay, Mind Blast and jackass around with your subpar dps spells. Warlocks and Mages are the dps role, learn this and understand it.

I played shadow priest this time around, after playing a pure holy/disc priest in beta. I assure you, the shadow priest does NOT outdamage the other two pure caster classes. Play them instead please. Save the healing class for those who do it well.

-

I definitely didn't deserve such a bitch-out for stating my opinion, if you care about these forums being civilized unlike the general forums as you put then act like it yourself.

On to other things, I can only judge from my experience and even though I wrote this earlier apparently it didn't get through to some people. Yes, I AM looking for an excellent PvP build and I AM looking for an incredible combo to kill opposing faction members...if your here looking at class forums I think you are along similar motives or just generally interested. In my PvP experience --- and it has been extensive --- warlocks die, and fast. I am going to start one and see how well I fare in PvP with one. The shadowpriest I currently have is excellent but the mana efficiency is ridiculous, in 1 on 1 pvp it doesn't necessarily matter but yes it definitely matters on larger-scale attacks.

Also, with enslave demon being pushed up to 5 minutes warlocks get a very nice end-game pet.

There is a lot of talk about shadowpriests not having any mana left over to heal, but warlocks cant heal at all...aside from stones they can conjure (and the pet stuff).

It isn't apples and oranges because its all about the same topic: PvP with a caster class. YES they fight differently, otherwise there would be no debate, but NO they aren't completely different, the two can be compared. I would be willing to bet that a 60 shadowpriest would be able to kill a 60 warlock in 1 on 1 pvp, but in a larger-scale situation this would not be the case. (Also the priest may die afterward from pending DoT).

The best reference I have is my RL friend who is an extremely high level warlock (~60), he claims he can beat an equal level priest, even if they are specced with shadow.

Depends on player skill, I think he will have a hard time vs an Undead priest @ equal skill level.

[Envie]

I definitely didn't deserve such a bitch-out for stating my opinion, if you care about these forums being civilized unlike the general forums as you put then act like it yourself.

On to other things, I can only judge from my experience and even though I wrote this earlier apparently it didn't get through to some people. Yes, I AM looking for an excellent PvP build and I AM looking for an incredible combo to kill opposing faction members...if your here looking at class forums I think you are along similar motives or just generally interested. In my PvP experience --- and it has been extensive --- warlocks die, and fast. I am going to start one and see how well I fare in PvP with one. The shadowpriest I currently have is excellent but the mana efficiency is ridiculous, in 1 on 1 pvp it doesn't necessarily matter but yes it definitely matters on larger-scale attacks.



Ok, disclaimer time: 1) I'm an outspoken opinionated bitch and some of my own guildmates don't even like me. 2.) You're going to have to have a little thicker skin then that if you're going to debate with me.

That being said, I apologize if you took my disagreement to your disagreeing opinion personally as it wasn't meant as a 'bitch out' against you the person.

You see, I have a serious problem when players try to utilize the priest as a pvp only tool because they're looking to 'pwn' everyone and have no intentions of being a group friendly or instance powered healer. I am not implying this is the mindset you have... but explaining to you why I said what I said in my disagreeing reply. There were many players in beta and now in final, who leveled up priests quickly and had a great time with the shadow-mage aspect of them... then they got to 50 and hit the glass ceiling with a bang, suddenly realizing the role they were being asked to play for endgame content, raids and groups and they either got frustrated and quit/rerolled something else... or they went on the forums and bitched and bitched about how the priest is just a heal bot and 'pigeon-holed' into only one role at the endgame.

I want people to understand something... the MMORPG concept is based around dynamic grouping tactics and the developers made traditional roles for the classes and then gave them 'flavor' with template options. This means, you CAN be a damage dishing shadow priest and you CAN win in pvp with it, but don't expect to be higher DPS than a warlock or a mage in instance raids or groups and don't even try to insist that's the role you're going to play and healing is for someone else. This is EXTREMELY frustrating for priests who enjoy full on healing and uphold standards of play regarding our instance and group powerhouse healing role. I can't tell you how many people in beta gave me a hard time when joining a group because they had had bad experiences with nuking/shadow only priests who let the group die in favor of trying to achieve that elusive high dps they insisted they can achieve.

PvP is a different issue, but again, your pvp groups will much prefer you're shielding and healing them rather than running off to nuke someone to death while the rest of the group is getting killed by other enemies. This just looks sloppy and weaksauce in my book. My pvp groups do not die even when vastly outnumbered by twice as many alliance (example are fights we did in hinterlands with groups of alliance). The only time we died was when I, the priest, was taken out first and the fight was scattered at that point. A good enemy will always go for the priest first!

I can't tell you how frustrating it is for me now that I gave up my shadow spec and reverted back to holy/disc. .. luckily for me I have an awesome fulltime group who keep me protected most of the time so that I can do my job and keep them healed up during fights.

I gave up shadow for the betterment of my group because I chose a priest to be an awesome healer. I very rarely need a backup healer, other than in instances where status effects such as sleep/fear/silence would be catastrophic to the group were I to be taken out of healing.

I hope you understand where my smartass criticisms come from and what I'm trying to achieve here. Whenever I see someone post that they're tossing around caster classes based purely on damage and PvP desires, I try very hard to convince them to play a warlock or mage, not a priest. The priest class IS pvp viable and tons of fun, dont' get me wrong, but it's also THE primary healer role in this game and it would be best if players understand that long before they hit 55-60 and suddenly cannot function in high end instances because they spent 55 levels nuking and soloing.

You pointed out, in your frustration at me, that this is not the general forums and I should act like it. This is our guild forum and I speak here as a member of Nurfed who understands the concept of playing a role to support and benefit the whole, not the individual to achieve greater things in the game.. cooperatively played tactics and teamwork. If that's not what you're playing WoW for (and I'm not saying that's the only way to play the game) then you either understand and accept my point of view on it, or you don't. If you don't, then the Nurfed style raiding/pvp/guild/group attitude isn't for you. That's ok too.

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[Coldfire]

If you're here, it's because you want to play a class smart, not because you're looking to be the "Pwnz0r Priest of Whoopass."

Priests are healers, first and foremost and regardless of how awesome you think shadow priests are, when you're invited to a group, it will be to HEAL, not to Mind Flay, Mind Blast and jackass around with your subpar dps spells. Warlocks and Mages are the dps role, learn this and understand it.I think I'm in love. =P It's nice to see someone with credibility saying flat out what I've been thinking for a long time.

Ironically enough, one of my best buddies is a shadow priest :D

[Microdave]

I've since rolled a warlock :P

[kenoki]

quote Envy


"I miss shadow a LOT... I mean, it's addicting and an excellent pvp tool (don't take that to mean they are uber... a shadow priest is still by DPS standards, a watered down warlock with no pet). "


Hrm any one else think this?

My name... is Envie. Not Envy. You will never understand why.

EDIT: Your location says France, surely you know the meaning!

- 8)

As aggressive and pedantic as a parisian lady stuck in a bus.You picked the good name. :twisted:

[Envie]

HAH! That's the first time I think I've ever been called pedantic. Nox will get a real chuckle out of that one.

:oops:


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[lethial]

Heh, Gosh I love this forum :)

Anyway, Envie, you are lucky to have perma grp all the time :) (I wish mine didn't break up because they join a guild... but I digress)

I too am one of those holy priests, actually now 27/24 disp holy build (little different from the one posted here) IMO holy tree need some love, but in general I love the aspect of being able to help others as much as I can (aside, I absolutely hate the thought that Druids have better heals and buffs and what not!!! :roll: HoT that is :) ) Though in my experince being a non-shadow priest on a PVP server can be rough. Esp. since I am the type that never attack first :(

With that said, I have to say that being a non-shadow priest is not as bad as ppl say. Most ppl that post on the blizz forum complain because they assume dmg is everything, but I can assure you that our heals can get us through many 1v1 pvp encounters, you just have to trust it and use it more :)

[Scorpicore]

Till the mid 40s my priest was shadow specced and was still able to be the main healer and sometimes the only healer in my sm and uldaman groups but I respecced for zul'farrak/maraudon to holy/disc - in the beginning of your priests life and when you are running around solo most of the time then the shadowtree is your friend the 1g for respec later on won't hurt you ;)

[Jumai]

Absolutely agree and <3 Envie, a priest is a class for someone who wants to keep the group alive. I get much more thrill out of timing a perfect greater heal and being able to dance circles around the poor warrior trying to kill me while my freshly recharged groupmates slaughter him than I ever would trying to spam sinister strike on said warrior and hope my priest could keep me alive while I do it.

I don't want to give the impression that a shadow priest can't play healer though, just not nearly as well. If you're specced solo for leveling, depending on skill you should be fine main/solo healing until you start hitting the 60 instances. I was able to pull off solo healing BRD at 57 with 31 shadow 17 holy in a group of warrior/warrior/rogue/mage/me, not a truely epic feat but just pointing out it can be done. Respeccing at higher level is definitely an option to keep in mind.

[Coldfire]

I don't want to give the impression that a shadow priest can't play healer though, just not nearly as well. I'd like to testify that my guild's only level 60 priest is shadow specced, and he is still one of the most awesome healers I've ever grouped with.

[Envie]

I don't want to give the impression that a shadow priest can't play healer though, just not nearly as well. I'd like to testify that my guild's only level 60 priest is shadow specced, and he is still one of the most awesome healers I've ever grouped with.

These kinds of testimonies are good and I'm always happy to see a shadow priest who can pull their weight effectively at level 60 in both PvE and PvP. Yes it can be done, and as long as you understand your healing power is significantly weaker than a holy/disc spec priest in instances and you're ok with that, then by all means keep your shadow spec all the way.

The problem is, too many unskilled players -don't- know how to focus their talent to fit the situation. It's like shamans who forget to back off and backup heal and continue to melee and nuke throughout a fight while the primary healer is out of mana or dying. I hear this happens with paladins on the alliance side too... getting focused on being some kind of weaker tank and not using the skills their class is focused on. I've just personally met too many shadow priests who spend 3/4 of their mana bar nuking and shadow putzing and then run out of mana to heal when the poo hits the fan. I personally found myself using my shadow talents less and less and less by the time I hit 45 and so I voluntarily gave them up so that my group (again, rarely do we have a backup healer) could survive in instances.

So long as each class player understands his/her role to the GROUP, I could care less what you choose to do when you're on your own soloing or PvP ganking from the shadows. Go for it and have fun!

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[Jumai]

I thought it was undrestood that if you're playing main healer you don' nuke, ever, shadow spec of otherwise.

I have respecced also now, because shadow was just to help me grind. I'm just saying you won't be a so gimped at healing that you can't do instances while leveling up. Make an alchemist friend though as you will go through 3x as many mana potions.

[Prince]

A smart shadowpriest would out DPS PVP wise a warlock easily imo. Did you forget about spirit tap when it comes to mana regen for priests also?

Shielding, flash heal, mindflay, and undead dot.

A warlocks pet is average at high levels and he'll be taken out by any good priest worth its weight.

[Gigashadow]

A warlock has 3 DOTs, a shadowpriest has 1 (+ 1 on a long timer if you're undead). While a shadow priest that mana dumps, using mind blast at every opportunity, can for about 30 seconds pull more raw, single-target DPS than the warlock, add a second mob to the equation and suddenly the priest can't even compete. If you're nuking for efficiency using just pain and flay, a warlock will outdamage you withi his 3 DOTs + pet.

While the shadow priest can and is played as a nuking class, it's only even remotely logical on paper. They don't have the range of the other nukers, and they don't have AE, and they can't stand up to melee. A rogue, warlock, mage, or hunter will come out on top every time in a real scenario.

A warlock can outdamage a shadowpriest, even over just 30 seconds, depending on how you speccced.

Improved Imp + Improved Firebolt = 114 dps from pet for 20 seconds (more if you are using Curse of the Elements).
Chained 2.5 sec cast shadowbolts = 192 dps
Curse of Shadows = ~ +15% average bonus on shadowbolts
Then there's also your Immolate + Corruption
Then you likely have either shadow mastery (+10% shadow damage) OR devastation/ruin (+5% crit, double crits), which averages either 10% or 8% more damage, depending on which of the two specs you picked.
Every 15 seconds you can insta-shadowburn for 500

Total warlock dps 114 (pet) + 192*115% (shadowbolts) = 334 dps, not even counting immolate or corruption, or shadowburn. Or deathcoil.

Shadow priests meanwhile have mind flay 142 dps, +10% darkness + 15% shadow weaving (after it builds up), 179 dps in total, and SW:P which is about 50. Total = 229 dps. Every 8 seconds (less with talent) you can mind blast, although you are risking agro. I don't think a shadow priest will be using shadow form in an instance, even as the secondary healer.

Bear in mind that the warlock's Curse of Shadows and Imp Fire shield can improve the party's damage output, and this isn't always reflected entirely on the warlock's own dps (so can shadow weaving of course).

[Jumai]

In shadowform using flay-flay-mindblast chain casting with pain ticking you can break 300 dps easily enough, but as stated above that's really an intellectual point and not a very smart thing to do.

edit: roughly rounded
((mind blast + mind flay + mind flay) / total cast time + pain dps )* compounded talent multiplier = dps
(((503 + 531)/2 + 426 + 426)/7.5 + 47)* 1.46
approx. 335 dps

[Devilnaut]

Why not MB > Flay > MB? Cooldown is only 5.5 seconds and putting a flay in between uses about that much time.

[Jumai]

Flay is 3 seconds long. How do you make it last over 5?

Largely for this reason I feel the fifth talent point in improved mind blast is a total waste, you're going to put two flays between blasts for max efficiency anyway.

Yet we're losing site of the core issue here: that the shadow priest is not well represented in real situations, pvp or pve, by crunching DPS numbers.

[Devilnaut]

"that the shadow priest is not well represented in real situations"...

IE, instances.


For pvp, the shadow rocks. His only downside is that he runs out of mana quickly.

Pain DoT does 1500 damage at 58, that's quite a nice little dot to spam all over the battle field, and MB DD > Warlock DD. Plus vampiric embrace, if any of your party members are hurt, that raises your effective "dps" by 20% per member.

Shrug, I'm not suggesting shadow > healer. Healing DPS and efficiency is absurd. But, a shadow is a very nice versatile pvp character, who sucks in instances.


BTW for MB > Flay > MB, what I usually do (with 5/5 imp MB) is MB > pain (free spell as it cuts into the ending animation for MB) > flay > then next MB is ready to rock. Flay is not just "three seconds"... that might be what the spell icon says ^^ but there are spell animations and the general messyness of actually hitting buttons to deal with. In my experience actually *putting* a full mindflay after a mindblast takes about 4.5 / 5 seconds.

[sh33p]

approx. 335 dps

Even so you're still not beating a warlock who's going to hit 334 dps without immolate+corruption, with those he's going to be close to 400 and doing it far more mana efficiently- that's without taking into account curse of shadows or agony.

The only place for a shadow priest is a solo PvP alt and solo grinder imho, or if you're always going to be grouped with another priest.

The problem then is utility wise- locks have Fear, 2xAE, Seduce, Soulstones, Healthstones, Curse of Elements/Shadows (highly underused imho). Basically a great companion to a mage in PvP or PvE.

What do Shad priests bring other than inefficient subpar dps class damage and weak healing?

Sure it's a great dueling class but WoW PvP isn't/won't be about duels and people that play Shadow priests to be "uber" do an injustice to the class everytime they end up being the only healer in a group.

The other thing is about DoT's in general; spamming them all over the battlefield is just lunacy, not only does it impair any future attempts at crowd control and drain your mana but it's just not efficient, if noone else is hitting the target then he's just going to naturally regen most of it.

All that does is give you a pretty dps number to look at, PvP is about /assist and crowd control or at times massive amounts of AE; not a competition to see how high you can get your dps counter :x

[Devilnaut]

"The other thing is about DoT's in general; spamming them all over the battlefield is just lunacy, not only does it impair any future attempts at crowd control and drain your mana but it's just not efficient, if noone else is hitting the target then he's just going to naturally regen most of it."

I realize that but it was just for arguments sake, as it was mentioned earlier that lock DPS gets higher and higher for multi targets (granted a lock can actually afford to cast his DoTs everywhere).


"What do Shad priests bring other than inefficient subpar dps class damage and weak healing? "


The DPS is actually decent, and the healing is not "weak" at all. To answer the question, there is silence, AE fear, dispel, shield, fortitude, snare... this is all very significant.

IMO the only thing truly running against shadow priests in group pvp is mana, but it's a pretty huge point. I would rather have a shadow priest in my pvp group than a warlock, for about a minute until his mana runs out ;) Still though, many pvp fights don't last that long.


I think the holy/disc priests are *way* overstating their case here.

[sh33p]

The DPS is actually decent, and the healing is not "weak" at all. To answer the question, there is silence, AE fear, dispel, shield, fortitude, snare... this is all very significant.

IMO the only thing truly running against shadow priests in group pvp is mana, but it's a pretty huge point. I would rather have a shadow priest in my pvp group than a warlock, for about a minute until his mana runs out ;) Still though, many pvp fights don't last that long.


I think the holy/disc priests are *way* overstating their case here.

Well yeah but any class with a DoT can do that, it doesn't prove anything.

None of the utilities you've listed are unique- compare that with what a warlock brings. This is especially a problem when any 5 man group really needs a holy/disc priest anyway so you're just an overlap. at best.

I really fail to see the attraction of having a shadow priest in your group, even when he's not OOM his damage isn't going to compare with a mage and certainly not a warlock over time and utility wise it's a no brainer imho.

[Devilnaut]

"None of the utilities you've listed are unique-"


Um. Dispel, shield, and fortitude are unique.



"I really fail to see the attraction of having a shadow priest in your group, even when he's not OOM his damage isn't going to compare with a mage and certainly not a warlock over time and utility wise it's a no brainer imho."


Shrug, you're sold. I guess there's nothing I can say.

[emb]

I really fail to see the attraction of having a shadow priest in your group, even when he's not OOM his damage isn't going to compare with a mage and certainly not a warlock over time and utility wise it's a no brainer imho.

Guess what, before priests got their talents they was actually able heal people. Amazing, yes I know. Talents just slightly boosts priests in a certain direction whether it's for solo/dmg/utility or for heal/group depends entirly on the priest. Eitherway they can still heal perfectly find and cast dmg spells. the difference between a vanilla priest and a holy/disc isn't as huge as you think.

[sh33p]

"None of the utilities you've listed are unique-"


Um. Dispel, shield, and fortitude are unique.


Not to a shadow priest, as I've already said you have to have a holy/disc priest so I'm talking about what the last group spot can add, it's a no brainer imho, dps wise -> mage, support/dps -> warlock.


Eitherway they can still heal perfectly find and cast dmg spells. the difference between a vanilla priest and a holy/disc isn't as huge as you think.

There's a huge difference; try 5 manning strat/scholo with a shadow priest. Damage and heal? In shadowform he's not going to be healing at all and if he's not in shadowform why bother being all shadow?

It's true that a really good shad priest will probably be better than a horrible holy/disc priest but people get unfairly misled when they hear bullshit like "shad priests can heal just as well" - if that's true then a holy/disc priest can nuke just as well as a shadow priest :)

[Devilnaut]

Please be clear, for the zillionth time, that you are talking *instancing* and not pvp... how much experience do you have pvping? (Not trying to insinuate anything I just want to know).


Shadow priests *blow* for instancing, and this has never been at issue for me, not once.

[sh33p]

Please be clear, for the zillionth time, that you are talking *instancing* and not pvp... how much experience do you have pvping? (Not trying to insinuate anything I just want to know).


Shadow priests *blow* for instancing, and this has never been at issue for me, not once.

I'm not, would you go 5 manning in PvP without a holy/disc priest? Most of my interest here is what works best in a 5 man group alone or as part of a raid; hence the look at possible setup.

Personally I've been playing since the start of US beta so I have a fair share of experience of WoW PvP plus a few years of DAoC :)

I really don't get why shad priests refuse to accept that they have little role in group PvE/PvP, it's not that big of a deal considering how hard they own solo.

Guess most of it is the mindset of the people that play them wanting to be uber at everything :)

[Microdave]

In 1 on 1 PvP Shadowpriests are excellent, they become OOM very fast but their target is dead multiple times by that point. They do seem to decline in the effectiveness chart when multiple enemies are concerned.

[Apotheosis]

Wow, long thread. To me there are three templates for every class I've played that fall into the following categories: pve, 1 v 1 pvp, and group pvp. PvE spec for me was for grinding to 60, and for that goal the templates have been very simple: do as much damage as I possibly can. Computer controlled characters (save the highest instances) are incredibly easy to kill, and as such my main goal was to kill them as fast as possible. With my Shaman, that was elemental/enchance spec. With my Paladin, it was retribution spec. You could really grind naked save a weapon if you wanted to. 1 v 1 spec is about balance to me: the healing/lower DPS classes need to up their damage some but not focus on it completely; the DPS classes need to up their defenses/resistances as much possible. The goal here, for me, has been to be able to take on as many different classes 1 v 1 as I can, because complete specialization breeds specific weaknesses. Last is group PvP, and here I found the goal is to SPECIALIZE. Priests should heal. Rogues and mages should DPS spec. Paladins should spec to live as long as possible -- whatever your class is best at, play to that strength, and let your group partners play to theirs. Since it's not 1 v 1, the priests shouldn't have to worry about doing damage and the rogues shouldnt have to worry about defense/healing.

Put another way, in 1 v 1 you HAVE to do damage while heal/defending yourself, since you have no one else to do it for you. But for group situatinos that no longer applies, and it's best to have everyone doing the job they were built for as well as they can rather than everyone trying to do all things themselves with less efficiency overall.

[Jumai]

Guess what, before priests got their talents they was actually able heal people. Amazing, yes I know. Talents just slightly boosts priests in a certain direction whether it's for solo/dmg/utility or for heal/group depends entirly on the priest. Eitherway they can still heal perfectly find and cast dmg spells. the difference between a vanilla priest and a holy/disc isn't as huge as you think.
That's ignorant. Having played both sorts of priest, and been a non-priest member of high end groups utilizing both sorts of priest, I am going to say you are outright wrong on all counts. Come here with some facts if you want to argue.


"None of the utilities you've listed are unique-"


Um. Dispel, shield, and fortitude are unique.

Not exactly. Devour magic and blood pact are the warlock's gimp versions of two of those three, and the healthstone is a standin oh-shit heal exactly like PWS (it doesn't help with channeling though). Both classes fear, but warlocks fear better. Both classes have a single-target anti-humanoid CC, but priests have to channel theirs. Aside from AE, warlock and priest secondary utility is extremely similar, even though their intended main roles are not.



Please be clear, for the zillionth time, that you are talking *instancing* and not pvp... how much experience do you have pvping? (Not trying to insinuate anything I just want to know).


Shadow priests *blow* for instancing, and this has never been at issue for me, not once.

No, we're also talking "real" pvp, which on this forum means an organized group. Honestly, screaming the acronym PVP doesn't even slightly lower the value of being an effective healer, nor does it increase the value of burst DPS more than it increases the value of burst heal-per-second. If you're running around ganking or zerging, shadow priests are much *easier* to play effectively, since healing in a disorganized mess where you aren't neccecarily even in a group is difficult. However, in an organized group, the priest will ALWAYS be healing first and foremost. In fact, I have more mana to throw into dots or single nukes in instances, since I'm gauranteed a chance to drink for a few ticks if I need it. I've had enough of hearing people whine "but it's a PEE VEE PEE build!" and expect that to excuse the fact they are playing an inefficient build. Shadow priests are NOT efficient healers and they are NOT efficient nukers. There is nothing wrong with playing one, but trying to justify it in comparison with better choices just isn't going to fly.

[jwinterk]

Having never played either a priest or a warlock, take this for what its worth.

As a rogue, warlocks are absolutely my favorite class to come across. The only ones with a remote chance of winning have the succ. as a pet. They just can't kill me fast enough, and with sprint it is so easy to run up and kick fear, even without stealth.

Priests, on the other hand, have insta-fear. GG, pretty much every time, unless they try something cute.

Oh, I play alliance so no WoF (sob).

tink

ps. You get teh free horsey!

[Devilnaut]

PEE VEE PEE! PEE VEE PEE!

Thanks for "putting me in my place" there Jumai.

:roll:

[PooFieDooFIe]

Just to inform you people, in raids when you cast it IS possible for your spells to be interrupted. Your calculations do not include this.

A warlock can instant cast corruption and CoA yes, but the damage of CoA is extremely weak during the first 15 seconds and only truely does damage in the last 10.
Drain Life is an option with the 70% ignore interruption from damage, as is the Nightfall 3% proc allowing for instant 500 damage.
Shadowburn also allows for a instant 500 damage but with it comes a precious soulshard and you WILL not be able to get it, Because of that Shadowburn cannot be used practically. Death Coil is every 10 minutes so it too cannot be used practically.

~~~~~

Also because fear takes 1.5s to cast, that also greatly reduces to DPS output of a warlock, in order to cast fear (which in turn allows you to nuke a player) you must endure the interruptions and possible cancellation of the spell in order to fear, the priest has an instant cast form of the spell (even though CD is dramatically higher) which allows it to have that "first strike".

What I am trying to get at is that your DPS calculated is flawed because you will not always be able to pull off a spell in a raid. the only spells that are truely effective are those that cannot be inturrupted (i.e. divine shield, sacrifice, power word: shield) or instant cast spells. The warlock is capable of a few instant cast spells but will not always be able to pull off those immo/sb.
Priests are able to shield which allows themto cast spells without inturruptions and therefore allows for higher DPS. Their Shadow Word: Pain deals more damage each tick than CoA unless the warlock uses Amp Curse which is once every 3 minutes. and even then the difference in damage between each tick are only about 15 near the final duration of CoA.

IMHO i regret making a warlock. i rock 1:1, and small raids (somewhat) large scale raids i find myself just dots dots and dots with the occasional immo/sb from nightfall proc.

Even though imo priests do higher damage than warlocks, i still find a priest that does not heal/give a shit about the team and considers himself/herself rambo trying to solo a billion people a BAD priest t-_-t

if you want to deal high dps, make a mage, if you want dots, make a priest, if you want to try something new, make a warlock.

~~~~~

jwinterk if you were playing vs decent warlocks i doubt you'll have an easy time trying to gank them.
a solo warlock will most likely voidwalker and most likely a heathstone with them. therefore instead of the 2k of hp you must bring down, you're dealing with 1k~3k extra hp. also if you do not have the slow poison on your daggers the warlock could cast CoE when he/she has a chance to and run far away + nuke/fear etc. yes you can sprint, but don't forget that once we fear, we're going to do everything we can to keep you from getting near us.

i've encountered many rogues trying to gank me while i solo, a good most of them failed. a few awesome rogues killed me but not without a good fight. i hate it when people underestimate warlocks...

[sh33p]

Drain Life in large scale PvP is just a big arrow telling people where to find you to come kill you :P

Yes it's possible to be interrupted but honestly if you position yourself well you should get off a lot more spells than in small-scale PvP, I've never had a problem in WoW, it's very forgiving interruption wise, you should try DAoC mages where any hit instantly interrupts you and you have no natural insta damage spells.

I think people are still confused about a warlock's role, imho it's similar to the enchanter role in DAoC, MA for the mages, stick dots & curse of elements on and focus fire the one target with the added bonus you can fear them and let the shaman frost shock or CoE yourself so they have no chance of running away.

For every mage in your raid you can add ~15% extra damage because of your Elements curse, especially considering how few people wear any resist gear.

Point is organised guild raids are a lot different from having everyone doing their own thing, mages do a lot better in such environments because they're a primary dps class, warlocks are secondary dps/support so require mages assisting you etc. to function to their full capabilities.

[Mashton]

NM im making a warrior now ;)

[voodoochile78]

I play a rogue as my main also, and I've never, ever had a problem with a warlock. Shadow priests on the other hand can hurt me bad if I don't get off the perfect stunlock chain. Even when I drop a shadow priest I have to frantically eat food/bandage/potion just so I don't die afterwards from their DoTs.

P.S. it's always amazing to see guys trip over themselves to kiss up to an internet girl (presumably) that they'll never meet, even though said girl is showing an incredible lack of decorum and common decency.

[sh33p]

I play a rogue as my main also, and I've never, ever had a problem with a warlock. Shadow priests on the other hand can hurt me bad if I don't get off the perfect stunlock chain. Even when I drop a shadow priest I have to frantically eat food/bandage/potion just so I don't die afterwards from their DoTs.

Find one of the decent warlocks on your server and duel :)

I'm no expert but this sort of "i have no problem with x" is pretty worthless conjecture, i had no problem with nearly all alliance 1v1 simply because the majority of them didn't have a clue how to play their class.

Shad priests are the best duel class for whatever that's worth it's pretty widly recognised but any warlock with a succ out should have a decent chance vs a rogue; seduce, fear, dots, curse of exhaustion, gg?

Locks that don't have succ out are asking for it, played right they can be very formidable 1v1 but like all the complex classes played wrong they just suck.

[voodoochile78]

Find one of the decent warlocks on your server and duel :)


Yeah, from about level 20 up to level 54 (where I am currently), my main leveling partner is a warlock who really knows his stuff PvP wise. I've never lost to him in a duel. Satisfied?

[jwinterk]

Voidwalker? haha, that's a joke right? like, why would i hit the pet? he can't possibly kill me. Shit, i could just turn on evasion, and make him more useless than he already is. As for pois, what decent rogue pvp's without crips on both hands? believe me, you will not get off your fear and you won't escape, unless you have a succ and manage to get things off in the few secs it takes to kill you.

and if I get the jump, gg? and if I actually use blind or pot, gg?

hmm...mb if i was afk though...

[kcma]

I don't want to give the impression that a shadow priest can't play healer though, just not nearly as well. I'd like to testify that my guild's only level 60 priest is shadow specced, and he is still one of the most awesome healers I've ever grouped with.

These kinds of testimonies are good and I'm always happy to see a shadow priest who can pull their weight effectively at level 60 in both PvE and PvP. Yes it can be done, and as long as you understand your healing power is significantly weaker than a holy/disc spec priest in instances and you're ok with that, then by all means keep your shadow spec all the way.

The problem is, too many unskilled players -don't- know how to focus their talent to fit the situation. It's like shamans who forget to back off and backup heal and continue to melee and nuke throughout a fight while the primary healer is out of mana or dying. I hear this happens with paladins on the alliance side too... getting focused on being some kind of weaker tank and not using the skills their class is focused on. I've just personally met too many shadow priests who spend 3/4 of their mana bar nuking and shadow putzing and then run out of mana to heal when the poo hits the fan. I personally found myself using my shadow talents less and less and less by the time I hit 45 and so I voluntarily gave them up so that my group (again, rarely do we have a backup healer) could survive in instances.

So long as each class player understands his/her role to the GROUP, I could care less what you choose to do when you're on your own soloing or PvP ganking from the shadows. Go for it and have fun!

-

ENVIE!!! my favorite UD priestess!!

it's Elderscroll/Charlythecat from CB =P

not sure why so many guys are arguing with UD priests from Nurfed on Nurf board hehehe... you guys probably know more about WOW's pvp mechanic than anyone else.

and as for Warlock vs Priest arguement... I'm playing with a petless hybrid Demonology/Destruction build that has no problem taking out UD priest and rogues without using fear (well fear don't work on you guys...) Most people have no idea what Warlocks can do... they're not DOTter with pets and fear.

[kcma]

Voidwalker? haha, that's a joke right? like, why would i hit the pet? he can't possibly kill me. Shit, i could just turn on evasion, and make him more useless than he already is. As for pois, what decent rogue pvp's without crips on both hands? believe me, you will not get off your fear and you won't escape, unless you have a succ and manage to get things off in the few secs it takes to kill you.

and if I get the jump, gg? and if I actually use blind or pot, gg?

hmm...mb if i was afk though...

you are the silly one. succubus = nub, good pvp warlock use VW. with Soul link and sacrafice and instant pet, they effective have over 6k HP easily, how many warriors do you know have that much HP? warlocks have so much HP they can shield themselves and watch dots kill you, or speed it up and spam uninterruptable nukes at you. on top of that, warlock has 2 instant nukes, 400-500 in shadowburn and a 800 hp switch (u lose 400 and warlock gains 400) in coil.

and you play alliance, no WoF? wouldnt it be the other way around? since you are alliance, you FACE WoF?

[kcma]

Just to inform you people, in raids when you cast it IS possible for your spells to be interrupted. Your calculations do not include this.

A warlock can instant cast corruption and CoA yes, but the damage of CoA is extremely weak during the first 15 seconds and only truely does damage in the last 10.
Drain Life is an option with the 70% ignore interruption from damage, as is the Nightfall 3% proc allowing for instant 500 damage.
Shadowburn also allows for a instant 500 damage but with it comes a precious soulshard and you WILL not be able to get it, Because of that Shadowburn cannot be used practically. Death Coil is every 10 minutes so it too cannot be used practically.

~~~~~

Also because fear takes 1.5s to cast, that also greatly reduces to DPS output of a warlock, in order to cast fear (which in turn allows you to nuke a player) you must endure the interruptions and possible cancellation of the spell in order to fear, the priest has an instant cast form of the spell (even though CD is dramatically higher) which allows it to have that "first strike".

What I am trying to get at is that your DPS calculated is flawed because you will not always be able to pull off a spell in a raid. the only spells that are truely effective are those that cannot be inturrupted (i.e. divine shield, sacrifice, power word: shield) or instant cast spells. The warlock is capable of a few instant cast spells but will not always be able to pull off those immo/sb.
Priests are able to shield which allows themto cast spells without inturruptions and therefore allows for higher DPS. Their Shadow Word: Pain deals more damage each tick than CoA unless the warlock uses Amp Curse which is once every 3 minutes. and even then the difference in damage between each tick are only about 15 near the final duration of CoA.

IMHO i regret making a warlock. i rock 1:1, and small raids (somewhat) large scale raids i find myself just dots dots and dots with the occasional immo/sb from nightfall proc.

Even though imo priests do higher damage than warlocks, i still find a priest that does not heal/give a shit about the team and considers himself/herself rambo trying to solo a billion people a BAD priest t-_-t

if you want to deal high dps, make a mage, if you want dots, make a priest, if you want to try something new, make a warlock.

~~~~~

jwinterk if you were playing vs decent warlocks i doubt you'll have an easy time trying to gank them.
a solo warlock will most likely voidwalker and most likely a heathstone with them. therefore instead of the 2k of hp you must bring down, you're dealing with 1k~3k extra hp. also if you do not have the slow poison on your daggers the warlock could cast CoE when he/she has a chance to and run far away + nuke/fear etc. yes you can sprint, but don't forget that once we fear, we're going to do everything we can to keep you from getting near us.

i've encountered many rogues trying to gank me while i solo, a good most of them failed. a few awesome rogues killed me but not without a good fight. i hate it when people underestimate warlocks...

in large group PvP, try full demonology build.

soul link your VW, drink a potion, and Hellfire none-stop. You will be the only person with enough HP to live through that Hellfire.

extra 1-3k HP? try 6+k HP.

walk around with soul linked VW, sacrifice it, and summon a new one, and sacrifice that.

[undie]

here's the deal, there are few priests, priests are the best healers, we play on a pvp server, all classes are adapted to pvp, rogues for example.......


anyho, why should priests sacrifice pvp for instances ? no one else does ..

so get used to alot of high level shadow (or at least partially shadow) priests. most ppl don't wanna be heal bar watching machines, can you blame them ? and you can't say "play another char if you don't like healing all the time" cause there are few priests :p

anyho, i'm not saying priests shouldn't spend 95% mana on heals in instances, but why not throw in a few smart blows ? of course holy priests pwn shadow priests at healing, but it doesn't mean shadow priests can't handle it..

[kcma]

and they still heal better than other classes =p

[doN]

You dont need to spec shadow to do damage. You still got your mind blast, dots and holy smithe without putting a single point in Shadow. The real question is: what tallent tree benefits the priest, most amount in the right direction. I think you get better healingpower with a holybuild than damagepower with a shadowbuild. People got this obsession with making the best allround char, best heals and best nukes. You cant have both!

You can go for a shadowbuild and win every duel, but then you wont be a good healer. You can go for a holybuild and be the best healer a team can get, but you will not win every duel.

You get a better chance of winning that duel with a holyspec then you got keeping everyone alive with a shadowspec IMHO.

[sh33p]

so get used to alot of high level shadow (or at least partially shadow) priests. most ppl don't wanna be heal bar watching machines, can you blame them ? and you can't say "play another char if you don't like healing all the time" cause there are few priests :p



You're playing the wrong class for the wrong reasons tbh, the worst kind of priest :(

Hf not getting any instance groups / getting any group you do get killed.


Yeah, from about level 20 up to level 54 (where I am currently), my main leveling partner is a warlock who really knows his stuff PvP wise. I've never lost to him in a duel. Satisfied?

Hardly, considering you're not even 60 yet I wouldn't say that you or your friend are the best on the server :P

[jwinterk]

kema is right, WoF pwns me as rogue, there isn't much i can do when its on but die...

right?

keep in mind that kick prevents you from casting any of those sexy shadow spells for 5 sec. do you have any idea how much dmg you are gonna take in those five secs?

lets see

ambush 1200
bs 1k
evis 2k
seal fate: priceless

and don't forget the win buttons: blind, thistle, vanish>amb or cs...

Shit, if you're by yourself i could just stunlock you the whole time.

[PooFieDooFIe]

Voidwalker? haha, that's a joke right? like, why would i hit the pet? he can't possibly kill me. Shit, i could just turn on evasion, and make him more useless than he already is. As for pois, what decent rogue pvp's without crips on both hands? believe me, you will not get off your fear and you won't escape, unless you have a succ and manage to get things off in the few secs it takes to kill you.

and if I get the jump, gg? and if I actually use blind or pot, gg?

hmm...mb if i was afk though...
kema is right, WoF pwns me as rogue, there isn't much i can do when its on but die...

~~~~~

keep in mind that kick prevents you from casting any of those sexy shadow spells for 5 sec. do you have any idea how much dmg you are gonna take in those five secs?

lets see

ambush 1200
bs 1k
evis 2k
seal fate: priceless

and don't forget the win buttons: blind, thistle, vanish>amb or cs...

i said voidwalker because most warlocks solo with vw as main pet. no it is not a joke. voidwalker sacrifice = 2k hp shield which means you have to deal with a extra uninterruptable shield due to damage.

Ambush 1.2k, bs 1k if you crit, evis 2k if you crit and have 5 points on the lock. easier said than done. it is as i can say simply, fear a rogue and nuke them with sb, then keep in fear and continue nuking. The warlock would not always be casting shadow spells for you to kick, even with shadow spells off they could cast firespells, within those 5 seconds you must include the health stone they would use and the vw they would sacrifice (~2.2k extra hp), the lock could move thus making it longer to land another hit upon them, and so forth.

No, vs a decent warlock you will NOT have an easy time ganking them. i've had many encounters with rogues trying to gank me because i'm at the top of their easy kill list, and most of them that try just ended up hurting themselves. i'm not saying warlocks dominate rogues, but rather most people do not know what warlocks are capable of.

also kcma let me remind you a warlock serves more as a support character in full scale raids. I have been to many and i would say if i were to SL/sacrifice/hellfire i would be the main target for all the hordes. Also it is not hard to move out of hellfire and seeing how the stun is still currently not working. if i were to hellfire that would mean all the extra hordes that i am not fearing (and dotting) would b on me or my team. as i said before, if you want to deal massive damage, make a mage and spam ae, if you want to play another role, make a warlock.

Also succubus is NOT in anyway newb. I rely on my succubus in mini raids in order to disable the priests or the rogues that are on me, or my team. it isn't so easy to simply CoE a rogue and run away, they have crippling poison, kidney shot, sprint, and so forth, therefore a succubus is needed.

[kcma]

make that 4k HP plus uninterruable casting with almost instant pet.

and hellfire in pvp is fine, have a shield up and walk up in the middle of ongoing pvp and start hellfire. yeh, you'll die eventually, so what? your damage output is still higher. well, all the dots will add up to but not in the sudden burst. between soulink, spell/healthstone, warlock has good amount of HP to burn, and throw a priest in there you're solid.

and no succubus is not completely nub, i use it. but ppl who have only used succubus and not VW doesnt know what warlocks can do.


***


as for the vs rogue, that's just pure theory craft, I can do that too.

Theorycraft for Warlock #1:

seduce
soulfire (800)
shadowbolt (450)
shadow burn (450)
seduce again
shadowbolt (450)
coil (470 on you, and heal me for 470)
seduce again
soulfire (800)
shadowburn (450)
you kick succubus out of seduce and I instant cast VW for shield
now I can spam nuke on you uninterrupted.

how much HP do you have? and you are seduced almost the whole time, and this does not take into account the almost instant VW i can summon up for sacrifice -> uninterruptable spams of searing pain. Kick? you just wasted that to kick succubus out of seduce right before i called up VW.

but i know this is not how the battle goes, this is how the battle goes in theoretically the most ideal condition where everything goes the way i want, just like you're lil scenario. good luck collecting 5 combo points to use on me. And I have more than enough HP to live thru your combo.

[voodoochile78]

Hardly, considering you're not even 60 yet I wouldn't say that you or your friend are the best on the server :P

Ouch. Clearly a level 54 has 0% of the abilities of a level 60 and therefore knows nothing. And clearly I said something about how me and my friend are the best on the server.

Anyways, if you can go find a rogue who rates warlocks as a class they have trouble with, please let me know. I won't hold my breath.

[sh33p]

Ouch. Clearly a level 54 has 0% of the abilities of a level 60 and therefore knows nothing. And clearly I said something about how me and my friend are the best on the server.

Anyways, if you can go find a rogue who rates warlocks as a class they have trouble with, please let me know. I won't hold my breath.

Level 60 is very different from 54 tbh, until you have your final end game talents, spec and some of the upper level instance gear things do tend to change.

Rogues are played by the "uber" people, they all talk an incredible amount of trash about how they can wtfpwn every class and every person on a server. I'd rather base it off the duels I witnessed of comparatively equal skill people at 60 :) .

[jwinterk]

kema - seal fate is not theorycraft. It is bugged, and gives extra cp like madness. So, getting 5cp on anything is not really every a problem, until they fix the bug. 4 cp sinisters?

sh33p: actually the original point I had was that rogues do in fact get pwned hard by some classes. Any decent warrior can beat most rogues w/ overpower, retaliate. And priests can beat everyone except UD. Palidans are always annoying. Mages have blink + sheep + frost nova. Druids have... Ahem, shamans have dirty dirty shocks.

A well played rogue can beat most classes except warrior and priest, but it does take skill. Warlocks happen to be particularly easy because their fear has cast time and they can't really front load enough damage to knock you dead like mages can. Anytime I get the jump on a lock I'm pretty much assured an easy victory. It's about even when they get the first blow (mouselook for the win). Sometimes it seems like they have monstrous amounts of hp, but without armor it doesn't seem to matter. A rogue could always play it safe and stunlock.

I can't really see why anyone would roll a lock instead of a mage or a priest, unless its purely for some variety.