Thoughts on the upcoming PvP Battlegrounds

[Envie]

The juicy teaser article and screenies were released almost a month ago, but we've heard no rumors of when the much anticipated PvP Battlegrounds will be live. I'm bored at work and reading through it in more detail here, incase any of you missed it:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/pvp/battlegrounds.html

For many of us on Archimonde, the release of Battlegrounds will begin the real PvP game in WoW and anything ingame now is just a tasteless appetizer most of us quickly grew bored with long before the game released. I only PvP when it's right there in my face (who can resist killing and cannibalizing a beautiful young nightelf when she's standing there gazing at you in the Badlands? :mrgreen: ) -- and I have zero interest in participating in the Hillsbrad shuffleboard game.

So. Reading the article, there are a few things that really peaked by interest:

- Lower Level players can contribute by completing battlefield quest and supplying mounts and equipment to NPC guards as well as ferrying supplies, and assisting with the strategic takeover of graveyards.

- NPC leaders and other battle related NPCs interact with players and can summon battle creatures to assist the fight!

- Tokens looted from player corpses that make them return to the graveyard to rez and body trophies you can turn in for NPC rewards and special battle assistance.

- Strategy based warfare to take over graveyards to remove players further from the center of battle and territorial takeovers for contested mines and resources.

All of this sounds REALLY great, and for you old SB fans (before the game was released so horribly) you'll remember that some of these ideas are exactly what we'd hoped for in that game, as well as DAoC.

The article did leave me with some questions such as:

- Will anyone be able to jump in a battlefield and participate, or is it a true instance that only 40 man raids can go into together?

- How does the instance know which enemy you choose to engage, or is your opponent random (a'la Guild Wars style)?

- Will there be guild only battlefields and howabout battlefield instances where one guild can split into two teams and battle each other for practice and fun?

- Are there faction and NPC rewards outside the instance useable inside the battlefield and vice versa?

- What kind of time-frame can a raid expect to last? They mentioned "Hours" in their testing runs... but will there be short run battlefield instances for people with less time, or even longer, campaign style ones for long term battles?

Just a collection of my thoughts and questions since it hasn't been really talked about much here at the Nurfed Camp. Many of us are very much looking forward to these much anticipated Battlegrounds. I hope they turn out to be as great as Blizzard is hyping them!

Feedback?

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[Tkon]

Very well put, I too am a h/c fan of old sb and daoc. I hope to find the same feel I did when I first experienced these games.

For some of your questions here are some of my opinions,

Yes i think there will be a limit, no way would they let it be too over powering i.e. 60 alliance 20 horde.

And what do you think will be the level requirements???

Will there be like DAoC style of bg1 2 3 etc.

I hope that level 5's cannot enter the same instance as level 50's + :D

And I Like your idea about the whole Guild vs Self , the only problem with that is there is no oposing team so the loots would have to be far less rewarding. Maybe no loots just pure practice?? that'd be nice :D

As for time frame.. I think they should all be honestly based on 1+ hours, just a player can leave any time he / she wants to leave.

Thats all i gotta say atm ><

Reply? :D

[evilution]

hope thye have "realm points" and a website soi can waggle my epeen as #1 for my class like in daoc :P

[Tkon]

heh, what class did you play back in daoc ?

[evilution]

cleric / sorc / zerker

[thglid5]

if they dont put some kind of limitation on #s you know it's gonna be bad...

im assuming it's got be raid groups style...

[Dish]

You've asked all the right questions, nothing I can add on.

Just hope it all plays out well, details seem a bit vauge right now.

[Tlear]

It doesnt sounds like its gona be instanced to me. Main problem with raid vs raid instance is how easy it is to exploit it.

I think most likely solution will be multiple copies of the same BG, when you grp pots in you can chose which one to join. As more people join additional copies become available.

In any case they need to work on optimizing their code for large fights. Right now they are unplayable.

[Tkon]

that'd be the idea, we'll see i'm sure they'll get it right :D

like they said this is the "main" point of the game :D

[mediocre]

I have this feeling it is a global neverending instance, that anyone can join. Or at least that is my fear

[Envie]

I have this feeling it is a global neverending instance, that anyone can join. Or at least that is my fear

That would seriously dilute the whole purpose of having an instance to begin with. Why not just make all of Hillsbrad one big zone-wide battleground with the NPC's in each faction's base town behave the same way as the Battleground concept?

I don't think (or I should say I seriously HOPE not) they are going to allow anyone to zone into the same instance as an already initiated battle between two opposing factions. This would be confusing, unorganized and extremely frustrating to teams that have their tactics and plans down to assigned tasks... and you have 20 nooblets coming in to disrupt your plan by doing whatever they want in the middle of it! That's part of why organized raids in Hillsbrad got old really fast back in beta... too many jerks who wanted to wave their famous 'epeens' and be burger kings, doing it their own way!

I believe, like raid instances, it will be based on who's invited into the raid group only. I have no idea how they will code it so that your opponents are the raid you choose or designate as your raid opponent, but Guild Wars had some interesting interface and instance options so perhaps they'll do it that way.

There are many hardcore PvP'rs who claim instancing battlegrounds will make it too 'carebear' and too planned, too easy to strategize and defeat like a dungeon boss... but I disagree. I honestly don't feel that the "Chaos Theory" of mass pvp makes a player somehow better at pvp... all it does is allow opportunity for exploitation, griefing, and completely unfair zergfest tactics.

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[l-c]

"There are many hardcore PvP'rs who claim instancing battlegrounds will make it too 'carebear' and too planned, too easy to strategize and defeat like a dungeon boss... but I disagree. I honestly don't feel that the "Chaos Theory" of mass pvp makes a player somehow better at pvp... all it does is allow opportunity for exploitation, griefing, and completely unfair zergfest tactics. "

Yes and no, open field pvp you get thrown curve balls all the time thep erson who is better at pvp usually can survive. When its a zerg then yea pvp isnt really a factor at that point.

[Palmen]

I dont think Blizzard is going to turn battle ground in to a guild war thing. my best bet is that its going to be open pvp that anyone can join.

They cant add somthing that only a few peoples will be able to play (like invite only pvp), becous they need to generate mony. PvP zones that anyone can join anytime they want would make alot more players happy.

[Hiero]

sounds like a nice idea but

in any large battlegrounds fight with the current state of things, the server will be the loser

[kary]

I think that battlegrounds will have the feel of DoTA -- not an unattractive notion, given the popularity of the mod, and Blizz's ability to take it deeper.

Capturing points changes the flow of the map. Special in game bonuses available (it'll be interesting to see if they put in the cool enchant of uberness available for X minutes if you do Y miniquest, forcing people to decide to race to point A in masse or split and try to get two etc ).

All experienced from the perspective of a combatant, should be chaotic for the first few weeks :).

---

On the way that the matches happen: hopefully it's similar to the system Arenanet do it with Guildwars. Instanced areas that start fresh when there are the right number of people to start it up.

It's a successful method, and from the amount of scripted content, they've written about, resetting it makes sense -- commanders need to come back to life and all that.

Who wants to zone in and get dive bombed by 50 griffons because the alliance just did the quest of win game? :)

[Envie]

I like your thoughts on this kary, and it does make sense to create the instances for battlegrounds similar to DOTA matches, though I've never played that myself, I hear the Nurfed guys rave about it and play all the time. Maybe I should pick it up and learn soon so I understand the strategies and game mechanics incase they make the battlegrounds similar. I almost bought the entire Warcraft trilogy when the servers were down for so long the first week of the game... I better get to 60 first and catch up with the guild. :roll:

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[Karza]

- Will anyone be able to jump in a battlefield and participate, or is it a true instance that only 40 man raids can go into together?

- How does the instance know which enemy you choose to engage, or is your opponent random (a'la Guild Wars style)?

The only definitive answer I can give you is the following response I got from Blizzard in a question I asked on the cesspool that is the General Boards.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?ForumName=wow-general&ThreadID=694896

The key Blizzard quote:


You'll only be able to play with players from your realm. And battlegrounds will have population caps, but they vary in size so different populations. As to what happens if a side goes over the cap, I am not sure at this point.

So, we know there are population caps and we know that those caps will vary in size. I was rather disappointed to see that it wasn't cross-realm as I think that would have had some very interesting potential and help address certain realms not having a healthy Horde or Alliance population. Maybe down the road.

Here is my guess at how Battlegrounds will work:

1. There will be an initial population cap of 1 group. As more people enter the instance, they will be put into queues until either someone from their faction leaves or an equal or relatively equal number of the opposing faction enter the instance.

2. The above will continue till a maximum population is reached and then a new instance will be created. Repeat 1.

3. There will be flexibility rules with 1 and 2 so that groups and/or entire raids will be able to stay together with the caveat that it might cause you to wait longer in a queue for enough positions to open or equal sized opposing faction to enter the instance..

4. A faction can actually win a Battleground instance, earn some reward points, be ported out and a new instance will be created with the above 1 and 2. The time it takes to conquer an instance will depend on how the fights go. (i.e. If one side mops up the floor with the other side, it could be done in less than an hour but if sides are equally matched, it could go on indefinitely. )

5. The quests will be balanced so that it requires a minimum number of players to complete and you can only access them where there are an equal number of players from the opposing faction in the instance.

Note, the above are just guesses but I think, at a very high level, that's how they will work.

Personally, I still have hopes for cross-realm Battlegrounds in the future where even PvP and Normal server players could take each other on but I won't hold my breath.

[Envie]

Personally, I still have hopes for cross-realm Battlegrounds in the future where even PvP and Normal server players could take each other on but I won't hold my breath.

Great ideas, too bad there's been no more definite info released. Like you, I think cross-realm battlefields would be really awesome... they could set up "Best of the Best" tournaments across all servers and have entire webpages devoted to tracking the competition and campaigns as it progressed across all the realms. It would be like a whole separate game outside of WoW, and one I know we would be very interested in.

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[Karza]

they could set up "Best of the Best" tournaments across all servers and have entire webpages devoted to tracking the competition and campaigns as it progressed across all the realms. It would be like a whole separate game outside of WoW, and one I know we would be very interested in.-

Exactly!! ;) Much like those Warcraft ladder tourneys except they'd be at the guild level where guilds could take each other on in raid instance sizes of 5, 10, 20 and 40! Just think of the competition for bragging rights to be the best PvP guild in WoW. Fun stuff.

[Selm]

id settle for anything other then people running back, rezzing, and attacking me every 60 seconds
:(

[kary]

I'm not sure taking up DoTA would be worth the effort at this point, especially if your working 60 at the same time ;) (falling behind the pack as a priest stings a bit, was doing 2 characters at the same time until I realized that the priest was needed pronto, leaving me with a 51 priest and a shelved 44 warlock).

DoTA is amusing, but I doubt the gameplay will be directly similar to battlegrounds (one person's view vs seeing the whole team at the same time, probably a slower pace, etc). My thinking on the DoTA analogy is that Blizz knows a good thing when they see it, and are remarkably good at taking an idea and evolving it to the next level (they took the Dune game concept and worked it into War1/2 for example :).

The kind of system Karza is projecting sounds very nice, and cross server would be fantastic. That would take it to the level of sport instead of just a per server perk. I'd love to see some way to do same faction cross server -- letting Blackrock's horde have a go with Archimonde's would be a lot of fun.

Unfortunately (for something like cross server contests) Blizz doesn't have a great history of getting things in quickly. Eg: in Starcraft the ladder system was miserable, and it wasn't addressed in that game at all. They did take the feedback and War3 came out with a very nice automated system, but years later. That system was one of the reasons that War3 held the attention of a casual gamer like me -- push button and pop into a evenly matched game, despite SC being the far superior game..

Mind you Blizz wasn't collecting a monthly fee for SC... hopefully things move more quickly in WoW :)

[Envie]

Mind you Blizz wasn't collecting a monthly fee for SC... hopefully things move more quickly in WoW :)

Bingo.

High volume monthly paying customers = huge incentive to release innovative and timely expansions and new exciting content. If they're smart, they'll learn from the mega-giant EQ success and put out upgrades and expansions regularly. This is Blizzard's first attempt at an MMORPG and they have an excellent track record for other games, so lets hope they keep it coming and get to the battlefield stuff SOON. The game has only been out 2 months, but there's only so long they can ride on the "everyone's busy leveling" excuse before they've got servers full of capped players looking for the next big adventure. Right now, there's only PvE raids and encounters to look forward to. That's only 50% of what the game is about.


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[kary]

This sound like round 2-infinity will open with a decisive advantage for one side.

Rebuilding

Battlegrounds, though, are a dynamic system, and so the conflicts therein will continue to rage back and forth even after a winner is declared. For the next few hours after your side scores a victory, the opposition will have no NPC troops to help them. That will give you greater control over the zone and the ability to fully explore Alterac Valley with confidence.

Enemy players might choose to resurrect in the tunnels leading into Alterac Valley and harass your side's players, but as the entire zone will be firmly in your control, it will be difficult for any opposing players to mount any sort of effective counterattack. Instead, they will have to wait for their base to rebuild itself.

A little while after it gets razed, the destroyed base will begin to slowly rebuild itself. Players can significantly reduce the reconstruction time, though, by capturing the nearby mine and delivering supplies between the mine and the base. Control of the Battleground will revert back to a contested status, and the battle for Alterac Valley will commence once again. However, mines, towers, and graveyards will remain under the victor's control, and will need to be retaken.