My evolving rogue build

[Nox]

I've been closely following the words of my Senseis - Kintoun, Theloc and the other contributors.

Iinitially I was going 31 combat, and I wanted things like sword mastery that are only avail there - and energy regen however as Dal has intoned and as I've discovered there is just no substitute for seal fate.

I'm restructuring my build now, and I think I'm heading in the same direction as kintoun where I'll have a hybrid dagger build that relies on +crit dagger 31 assasination 20 combat. I'll be dropping some things from combat tree - but as I've found my damage comes from ss/evisc.

Feedback is welcome -

I'm working on the loadout right now, but it looks like it'll be :


30 assasination/ 21 combat

Synopsis :
Dual dagger, crit bonus and seal fate combo with instant poison

________________________________________

Class: Rogue
Level: 60


Assassination Talents (30 points)

# Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
# Malice - 5/5 points
# Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
# Improved Slice and Dice - 2/3 points
# Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
# Lethality - 5/5 points
# Improved Instant Poison - 5/5 points
# Cold Blood - 1/1 point
# Seal Fate - 5/5 points

Combat Talents (21 points)
# Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
# Lightning Reflexes - 5/5 points
# Precision - 5/5 points
# Dagger Specialization - 5/5 points
# Blade Flurry - 1/1 point

Subtlety Talents (0 points)

# None

[Ratama]

Why use a dagger build without improved backstab?

I'd consider shifting points from Lightning Reflexes to backstab. As Kintoun said in one post, you are not going to be able to take hits as a Rogue anyway.

I like the Lightning Reflexes for leveling, but once you are there, why not ditch it?

I also like Murder over Improved Slice&Dice, but I think you've seen me rant about S&D before. I stick to my guns even more on that one now that I have the final rank of Eviscerate, and Evis has jumped to over 25% of my damage while grinding.

[Nox]

Why use a dagger build without improved backstab?

I'd consider shifting points from Lightning Reflexes to backstab. As Kintoun said in one post, you are not going to be able to take hits as a Rogue anyway.

I like the Lightning Reflexes for leveling, but once you are there, why not ditch it?

I also like Murder over Improved Slice&Dice, but I think you've seen me rant about S&D before. I stick to my guns even more on that one now that I have the final rank of Eviscerate, and Evis has jumped to over 25% of my damage while grinding.

Daggers for crits
The crits stack for seal fate.

Lightning reflexes I agree - situational but where else should they go?

backstab for me isn't useful enough in pvp. I am not going to gimp myself for a pve build. Maybe that's wrong-headed - hence I'm throwing this out for people to kick around.

[Jumai]

The math simply won't support sinister strike + daggers. Ever. I'll be back in a little bit with math to back it up, but even using dagger spec, you are losing too much damage.

There are three reachable things in combat that should concern you as a pvp rogue, improved backstab, improved sinister strike, and riposte. Things like dodge and even prescision are strong, but just don't do for you what the other trees can.

If you find backstab unusable in pvp I strongly advise you switch to swords and/or maces. Generally, the dagger rogue tries to land an ambush and follow it up with a backstab before the target knows enough to turn around, which is a fairly reliable and fast 1.5-2k especially on cloth. This burst is how you justify losing SS power.

edit: the math, using two reasonably attainable level 60 weapons, Gift of the Elven Magi and Skullforge Reaver.

Dagger
43 - 81 Damage Speed 1.50
(41.3 damage per second)

Sword
72 - 135 Damage Speed 2.50
(41.4 damage per second)

First of all, the straight-up difference in damage per hit:
(72-43) to (135 - 81)
29 to 54

Secondly, the attack power bonus (attack power adds damage per SECOND, which means slower weapons gain more out of attack power using SS).
1.5 / 2.5
0.6
(or sword gets 166% more damage per hit from attack power).
Compensating for deminishing returns and approximating a bit, 20 str or agility = 1 dps. The dagger gets about 1.5 damage per hit for 20 agility, the sword gets 2.5. So at about 240 agility, (eidt: made a silly mistake here) the sword hits 12 damage harder on each SS from just stats. If you have say, 100 strength, that's another 5 damage advantage to the sword.

Averaging it out...
((29 + 54)/2) + 17 = 58.5 more damage per SS using the sword. You will NEVER make that back on 5% crit, even counting lethality and seal fate. If you let those two double the value of the crit, which they wouldn't in a million years since they only work on styles, that's at best a 25-30 damage per sinister strike increase over time working in 130% extra damage on a style crit and 150 combo point damage. I'm being real generous to the dagger user here.

[Nox]

Really the build isn't about incremental damage from the 5% bonus from daggers, the build is about seal fate. The % from daggers is a bonus to the base crit % which is all a part of the compounding nature of the build.

If daggers is that big a hit against me, I'm willing to reconsider dagger spec, and I am very, very fond of riposte however I'm concerned that it's pve-only sort of skill. I find it hard to imagine a pvp oriented player without weapon chains.

[phor]

I don't think imp backstab would really fit in with this build. It's true that if he got imp backstab and used backstab, that he'd have a much greater chance for seal fate to proc, but at the same time, he'd be using a ton more energy, and without 5/5 opportunity, his backstabs would be comparatively weak.

The way seal fate is bugged right now, his build will work just fine.
(although when they fix seal fate, it won't be anywhere near as strong as it will be now)

Jumai, if you want to break out the math, then be sure to add in the extra poison procs that the faster daggers will bring to the table over sword/mace. (instant poison VI adds a lot of dmg)... ALSO, the dmg per SS doesnt' mean anything if you don't take into account the extra combo points that that extra 5% crit will give him (from seal fate)..
Most of his dmg is going to be comming from big 5pt crit evis, not SS spam. He's just trying to get to the 5pt evis as fast as possible (hence using dagger for the extra 5% SS crit rate)

and as for riposte, anyone that has a weapon chain can't have an enchant.. I personally haven't seen a single 60 using weapon chains yet.
Everyone uses icy or fire weapon enchants.
The actual problem with riposte that I had was that I just didn't parry enough during pvp to use it very often.

but that's just my opinion. take it as you will.

[Jumai]

I didn't add poison procs because there are better poisons than damage ones for PvP. Honestly, crippling and mind numbing absolutely trash people where instant and deadly just make extra numbers flash (unless you're dot'ing to break stealth).

Riposte is good for pvp. 10 energy 150% damage is worth it every time, it's your overpower. If it disarms them too you can laugh at them and proceed to just win.


edit: if the dagger spec is about seal fate, what is seal fate about? It's not just a gimmick, every combo point translates into damage or stun. Seal fate powers kidney punch faster than the deminishing returns cycle so you will be forced to either waste combo points or use evisc, and using a dagger will get you less damage COUNTING the dagger's extra combo points.

Combo points are good, but if you could do a 1200 damage swing for 35 energy, you would never ever press evisc. It's about efficiency in the end, whether combo points or raw hits work out to kill something faster.

[Tanniym]

I see what you are going for here Nox, so this may help you find what you are looking for.

Combat Talents (21 points)
# Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
# Lightning Reflexes - 4/5 points
# Improved Backstab - 3/3 points
# Deflection- 5/5 points
# Riposte – 1/1 points
# Dagger Specialization - 5/5 points
# Blade Flurry - 1/1 point

And keep what you planed for assassination. This takes away points for improved gouge, personal opinion this is really only good of you plan on going lone wolf most of the time; that being said if you group for your pvp action this is a acceptable loss, if not may want to keep it. Part you may have to wrestle with is the loss of precision, for some the +5% to is a must have for others (like my self) it can be skipped. However, you gain deflection and Riposte in this build so the choice is yours. The reason I recommend improved backstab is because you are a dagger rogue and if you don’t ever BS your opponents you are hurting your self. That being said I am one who likes to improve all of his options ;). Hope this will help you in building you ultimate pvp rogue killing machine.

[Nox]

I have lots of uses for combo points.

In group pvp with rapid combo generation I use the combo points to lock down casters and to maintain haste.

You can crunch numbers on the build but - never forget that success in pvp is less what you use than how you use it. For me, this build constantly provides me with combo points which I employ to disrupt and harass my targets with kidney shot, drop ruptures on them etc.

No, the build doesn't give me big eviscerates, that's true - but the question is, is a build geared towards big evisc on cloth targets necessary?

I was going to drop riposte for sure but - I found out it's bugged and once it lights up you can use it on any target =/ So you can get riposte lit up and switch targets and disarm.

In practical experience in pvp I've found that while I love doing damage - and in pve I go dual instant poisons generally unless I need one cripple - in pvp I am generally using crip/crip or rarely cripple/mind if I have time to switch