Paladin Expansion Spec

[psylynt]

heres what im thinking:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-paladin/talents.html?0550310250310053100052025100023320020 0000000000000000000000000
need some feedback though, because i've never played a paladin before, and i don't know much at all about their talents.

i'm wanting a PURE GROUP HEALING and SUPPORT spec, in case you're wondering where im trying to go with this.

***update***
im also considering an Avenger Shield spec. it kinda looks useful for WSG, but i'm gonna have to wait and see how it really plays out before i choose.

aight. 1, 2, 3 gogo contsructive criticism!

[khan3817]

Looking good but utilize either Blessed Life or Ardent Defender one of the two.

[psylynt]

yeah, they both look crazy. however, im betting on the fact that paladins dont ever get trained on. plus, im not sure what i could give up for them.

[sly24]

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-paladin/talents.html?0550312252310153155150023100000000000 0000000000000000000000000


what i would use

[Baldor]

I'm not too fond of redoubt and shield spec since they are solely for pvp, and you won't be blocking while casting. That would free up 7 points 5 of which i would put in toughness, the other 2 probably in precision.

since both sides will have paladins now for cute pvp healing, hoj will be cleansed a lot more. You could relocate those 3 talents to the holy side. I'd put those in Holy Guidance. That's about it.

I'm doubting about the lay on hands talent. with the t3 set bonus you already get -12m on the cd, and with 2 points in the talent you get the 30% armor bonus for 2 minutes and another -20m, making the cd 28 minutes.

[Scorpicore]

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-paladin/talents.html?5500000000000000000005005133021001505 1531050050000000000000000

that's what I'm aiming for in BC
not too sure about Precision or Weapon Expertise since I got a Human Paladin but meh

[onyx]

I'm not too fond of redoubt and shield spec since they are solely for pvp, and you won't be blocking while casting. That would free up 7 points 5 of which i would put in toughness, the other 2 probably in precision.

since both sides will have paladins now for cute pvp healing, hoj will be cleansed a lot more. You could relocate those 3 talents to the holy side. I'd put those in Holy Guidance. That's about it.

I'm doubting about the lay on hands talent. with the t3 set bonus you already get -12m on the cd, and with 2 points in the talent you get the 30% armor bonus for 2 minutes and another -20m, making the cd 28 minutes.

read his post, he wants a pvp spec.

[Pennyman]

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-paladin/talents.html?0550310252011053151150324100020300000 0000000000000000000000000

[Jekal]

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-paladin/talents.html?0550310252011053151150324100020300000 0000000000000000000000000


ARAM THAT SPEC SUX

[psylynt]

doh, figured out i dont need Blessing of Sanc, for some reason i was thinking it was Blessing of Sacrifice.

p.s.
fuck imp lay on hands. its worthless for Arena.

also thinking that i should get rid of the "increased resist to curse" since our groups are amazing at removing them.

[grom]

make consecration trainable but move tactical mastery to protection ... where is the warrior love :(

.. yeah i know ms with flurry would be kinda sick :p

about pure of heart. well there is no real alternative. div strengt: nah, imp seal of right: not really, imp loh: cant be used in arena, imp bless of wisdom or lasting judgement: pve

as you cannot block while casting, toughness is better for pvp than redoubt imho.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-paladin/talents.html?0550310250310253102050025100223300000 0000000000000000000000000

would be my prefered specc with the current talent trees

edit: new link to the right specc, copied the wrong one >_<

[psylynt]

didnt know that bit of info about not being able to block while casting, yeah ill prolly opt for toughness now because of that, thx much :D

perhaps this http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-paladin/talents.html?0550310250310253102052025100023300000 0000000000000000000000000

actually, after a little more consideration, i could get imp divine shield with just a lil bit of sacrifice from teh holy tree. dont really need lower costing cleanse, ill have plenty of mana, and the 2 points in holy guidance are kinda negligable as opposed to being able to emergency immune heal more times per fight.

which leaves me with this spec
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-paladin/talents.html?0550310250310053100052025100023320020 0000000000000000000000000
and loe and behold, its the exact same spec duds linked me a while ago. looks like you did your homework too :D

[Soulless]

healin's fo pansies (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-paladin/talents.html?5000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000552313510223310531551)

[psylynt]

RETADIN GO!

[twofold]

Definately rerolling? I've been considering it, but waiting on the priest talents to come out, even though they'll most likely be trash..

Anyhow, why imp Divine Shield? If you're doing arena stuff, I'm sure that there will be more than enough time to wait for the cooldown to end, but, the fights will be short enough that it'll be worthless.

Meh.

[Pennyman]

Imp Dev Aura and Redoubt are both pretty trash.

#1 Usually not running Dev Aura
#2 Can't block while casting
#3 When you do block, you block a whole 50 damage, unless you take Shield Specialization, then you block a whole 65ish dmg.

So between those two, i personally would go with Dev Aura so that you'll have it when you do PvE and so that in the odd case you need to run it, its better.

Pure of Heart is pretty awful because...

#1 Disease is PvE
#2 Most curses are instant and low mana cost, so one recast wouldent exactly break a warlock. Curse of Tongues being the one that a warlock would be casting on a paladin, is especially so.

Purifying Power is pretty PvE'ish in general, it'd only be super effective on a fight like chromaggus. And we all know consecrate is a great dps/mana spell.

Wisdom and Lasting judgement are also pretty PvE....but at the very least they will make you longer lasting in PvP. Wisdom for obvious reasons and lasting judgement because even with just 1 or 2 points in it, if you kill the other teams magic dispel's (or if they dont have one, which is sometimes the case), you can put and keep a JoW on someone for mana efficiency reasons.

Holy Guidance, unless they increase the amount of int paladins have greatly with the expansion, is pretty awful too.

[psylynt]

Definately rerolling? I've been considering it, but waiting on the priest talents to come out, even though they'll most likely be trash..

Anyhow, why imp Divine Shield? If you're doing arena stuff, I'm sure that there will be more than enough time to wait for the cooldown to end, but, the fights will be short enough that it'll be worthless.

Meh.

imp divine shield is insanely handy. being able to completely avoid interruption while pumping out insane heals is godly, and any decrease in cooldown for it is pretty much a MUST. (as far as my pvp group's needs are concerned)

also, i opted for pure of heart because i've seen how much curses can completely cripple a paladin. try playing our WSG team if you're not sure what im talking about.

[Noktyn]

Pure of Heart is pretty awful because...
#2 Most curses are instant and low mana cost, so one recast wouldent exactly break a warlock. Curse of Tongues being the one that a warlock would be casting on a paladin, is especially so.
Cures are instant and low mana cost, but you're forgetting about the new Lasting Afflictions talent in Affliction which affects Curse of Tongues :(. 30% chance isn't something you can shrug off :\. I'd get Pure of Heart just to make it more of a bitch for them to put it on you. Also, out of curiosity, which talent would you choose instead?

[twofold]

imp divine shield is insanely handy. being able to completely avoid interruption while pumping out insane heals is godly, and any decrease in cooldown for it is pretty much a MUST. (as far as my pvp group's needs are concerned)


From a strictly arena group pov, I still fail to see how it could be useful. For wsg/ab/whatever BG they add later that last long enough for the cooldown to refresh, then yeah, it'll be good, but I don't see arena fights lasting anywhere close to 4 minutes.

If it increased the length of divine shield or something like that, then yeah, I'd say its a must get - but a minute off the cooldown & reduced attack speed makes it a waste of points imo.

[Pennyman]

Cures are instant and low mana cost, but you're forgetting about the new Lasting Afflictions talent in Affliction which affects Curse of Tongues :(. 30% chance isn't something you can shrug off :\. I'd get Pure of Heart just to make it more of a bitch for them to put it on you. Also, out of curiosity, which talent would you choose instead?

Well like i say, none of the talents are all that great, you just kinda have to throw points somewhere. 30% chance to resist dispel is pretty big, but 15% chance for you to resist it, is small in itself, on top of the fact that its 1 second later and its on you anyway, with not much wasted in terms of mana. Not to mention only affliction warlocks will have that talent (which i seriously believe a lot more locks will be affliction after the xpac).

Personally instead of 3/3 Pure of Heart, i'd probably take 2/2 Imp BoW and 1/3 Lasting Judgement. Truthfully its just a matter of personal preference since neither will make or break you in a 5v5.

[Baldor]

read his post, he wants a pvp spec.

I understood that and reacted in that way.

Now for the "pure of heart" / whatever discussion, I think people forget how annoying curses are for paladins seeing as it's the only thing that we can not dispell (other than popping ds ofcourse)

I still don't care much for the HoJ talent, seeing that in organized small group pvp you will be the main healer. You don't want to spend time chasing people to pop your HoJ. If they come close, all the better, but it's too situational for my likings to spend 3 talents on it to lessen the cd when the odds of using it every time the cd is down are low.

So what i would do, purely looking at arena pvp, is this (slightly changed it since last time):

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-paladin/talents.html?0550310250310053115050025100220301000 0000000000000000000000000
The idea of Unyielding Faith / Concentration Aura / Pure of Heart / Stoicism makes me chuckle. I also assume arena battles won't last longer than 5 minutes (i know the ds cd goes to 4 minutes, but you won't be popping ds the first second a fight begins.)

Then again, I didn't play WoW worth mentioning since last winter, so it's all theorycraft for me. As it is for everybody, since it's TBC talents, but you know what i mean.

[Pennyman]

I understood that and reacted in that way.

Now for the "pure of heart" / whatever discussion, I think people forget how annoying curses are for paladins seeing as it's the only thing that we can not dispell (other than popping ds ofcourse)

I still don't care much for the HoJ talent, seeing that in organized small group pvp you will be the main healer. You don't want to spend time chasing people to pop your HoJ. If they come close, all the better, but it's too situational for my likings to spend 3 talents on it to lessen the cd when the odds of using it every time the cd is down are low.

So what i would do, purely looking at arena pvp, is this (slightly changed it since last time):

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-paladin/talents.html?0550310250310053115050025100220301000 0000000000000000000000000
The idea of Unyielding Faith / Concentration Aura / Pure of Heart / Stoicism makes me chuckle. I also assume arena battles won't last longer than 5 minutes (i know the ds cd goes to 4 minutes, but you won't be popping ds the first second a fight begins.)

Then again, I didn't play WoW worth mentioning since last winter, so it's all theorycraft for me. As it is for everybody, since it's TBC talents, but you know what i mean.

Regarding Pure of Heart vs. the other "increase resistance to this effect" type of talents. It's 15% chance, on top of the fact that curses arent like most other types of talents. Most fears are on a timer usage, and the one that isnt, still gets a diminishing return effect if you resist it the first time. Curses however are almost all instant, and are almost all fairly low mana cost, so that even if the paladin were to resist the first one, chances are they wouldent resist the second one, which would be on them exactly 1 second later anyway, at not much expense to the warlock. Stun's/Fear's/Disorient's generally have a timer/ragecost/combopoint associated with them that would make increased resistance to them important since they wouldent just be applied 1 second later regardless.

[grom]

don't know if it's me but when watching close 5o5 matches in vids (lets take nurfed roamings :p), most of the time the mana classes are oom after some time and have to use pots (remember, pots are forbidden in arena fights)

so, if you look at the alternatives for poh and think about those close matches .. yeah poh could give you the edge over your enemy

some resists that cause the warlock to use one or two more life taps within the fight your priest/palid/shaman/drood has to heal could be the reason for missing mana at the end of the fight where a pw: s or flash of light or whatever would decide about winning or losing

yeah it won't be the case in every match but imp blessing of wisdom and lasting judgement won't do shit in pvp and lay on hands can't be used in arena fights .. should be an easy decision for a pvp only specc :p

[Pennyman]

don't know if it's me but when watching close 5o5 matches in vids (lets take nurfed roamings :p), most of the time the mana classes are oom after some time and have to use pots (remember, pots are forbidden in arena fights)

so, if you look at the alternatives for poh and think about those close matches .. yeah poh could give you the edge over your enemy

some resists that cause the warlock to use one or two more life taps within the fight your priest/palid/shaman/drood has to heal could be the reason for missing mana at the end of the fight where a pw: s or flash of light or whatever would decide about winning or losing

yeah it won't be the case in every match but imp blessing of wisdom and lasting judgement won't do shit in pvp and lay on hands can't be used in arena fights .. should be an easy decision for a pvp only specc :p

I'd be willing to bet that a paladin not afraid to switch blessings mid fight, or better yet a team using 2 paladins, could make a far better mana ratio out of BoW than PoH, in most fights.

[Trixx]

U NEED REKCONING!1`

[Apotheosis]

Haha, that's funny Psylynt.

I've been playing Paladin for a long time, and the spec you've chosen is -- to the exact point save one -- the same as the one I've chosen. All 60, save BoSanctuary. At first I didn't take it either, but then I noticed that the next rank of BoSanc protects against 80 damage from all sources, instead of 24. That's a 333 percent increase in effect, and might be worth picking up in the expansion. Against a Rogue, that could add up to 500+ damage absorbed really quickly. Otherwise, I agree with your spec.

However, consider the possibility that this is a Battlegrounds spec, and not an Arena Spec. With the extra 7 points you get in Protection (that you didn't spend in Holy to get Blessed Life/Divine Illumination), you got some very nice talents, especially Improved Divine Shield. However, I'd guess that Improved Divine Shield's potency will be drastically muted in an 5v5 Arena match. I'm expecting the matches to last from 2 to 3 minutes; perhaps I'm misjudging, we'll see. In any case, I might suggest picking up Divine Illumination for an Arena 5v5 Build, but going your build for BGs. I assume you can see the math I'm doing in my head, and it's all based on assumptions about how Arena Fights will go; if I'm wrong, then this spec could change.

Here's my proposed Arena 5v5 build: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-paladin/talents.html?0550310250310053151152025100020300000 0000000000000000000000000

[SandDemon]

I'd take a very similar build to Apotheosis but I'd shift a few things.

1) Redoubt is stronger than Imp Dev Aura. 99.9% of the time you'll be using concentration aura and although you can't block while casting, blocking still is very relevant as a Paladin (especially when you're sitting there chain-stunned by a rogue or just stunned in general). 30% blocking is pretty good.

2) Divine Illumination I'm really stuck on using - mana really isn't an issue for a healer pvp paladin, especially if you're geared for mana/survival/spell-crit%. I'd probably pull the point of Divine Illumination and Holy Guidance to put 2 into improved resistance auras (I was an addict for switching auras versus casters and 5% less damage for the group is huge)

3) Holy Shock is mostly crap (rare is the situation that it would have changed the fight), and although I don't want to really lose it and some holy talents...I'd shift more to the offensive and survivability of the paladin into protection. I'd rather have improved divine shield (big lifesaver), improved hammer of justice, and blessing of sanctuary at my disposal instead of Light's Grace (almost always using flash - smart pvpers will stop any holy light), holy shock and 1 pt in Blessing Life (it's a big deal, but most of my fights were against casters - melee was handled elsewhere).

Even though I dont play anymore, this would be my spec for PVP:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-paladin/talents.html?0550312250110050040005225100022321020 0000000000000000000000000

[wotan]

not that you go often melee with a prot paladin, so i consider 2 in preicision a waste

i'd rather put 1 of those to finish up blessed life and 1 to HoJ

Light's Grace really does look attractive and looks like a fair trade from Blessed life too, 3 pt would go in it and 2 left would go to Pure of Heart.

But that depends of players gear and own preference. Since it's just last 10-15 talents in holy tree to play around, prot is set like that.

[Drekor]

Imp Dev Aura and Redoubt are both pretty trash.

#1 Usually not running Dev Aura
#2 Can't block while casting
#3 When you do block, you block a whole 50 damage, unless you take Shield Specialization, then you block a whole 65ish dmg.

So between those two, i personally would go with Dev Aura so that you'll have it when you do PvE and so that in the odd case you need to run it, its better.

Pure of Heart is pretty awful because...

#1 Disease is PvE
#2 Most curses are instant and low mana cost, so one recast wouldent exactly break a warlock. Curse of Tongues being the one that a warlock would be casting on a paladin, is especially so.

Purifying Power is pretty PvE'ish in general, it'd only be super effective on a fight like chromaggus. And we all know consecrate is a great dps/mana spell.

Wisdom and Lasting judgement are also pretty PvE....but at the very least they will make you longer lasting in PvP. Wisdom for obvious reasons and lasting judgement because even with just 1 or 2 points in it, if you kill the other teams magic dispel's (or if they dont have one, which is sometimes the case), you can put and keep a JoW on someone for mana efficiency reasons.

Holy Guidance, unless they increase the amount of int paladins have greatly with the expansion, is pretty awful too.


While you cannot block while casting your also not always casting and devo is rarely to never used in PvP. It's 99% of the time concentration aura and the other 1% of the time it's fire/frost auras. When you block it depends on your gear, I block about 110 in my gear, I also walk around with 9k armor so I often completely block warriors MS's because of mitigation. When you combine that block with the armor it makes a big deal.

Devouring plague is a disease

Lasting judgements at 1 pt is damn near required for group support because you do not have the time to swing once per 10s to keep judgements up, once per 20 is a lot easier to handle. And not using judgements at all is kinda foolish.

Holy guidance is fantastic

My paladin is going to look like this:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=sVxuMgzoxaxVMtcMc

I have good survivability, exceptional healing and worse comes to worse I have about +900 damage to throw around for some serious pain, especially now with AW. Although the sustained damage still sucks the burst potential is high which is what counts in pvp(looking at about 6k burst)

[SandDemon]

not that you go often melee with a prot paladin, so i consider 2 in preicision a waste

i'd rather put 1 of those to finish up blessed life and 1 to HoJ

Light's Grace really does look attractive and looks like a fair trade from Blessed life too, 3 pt would go in it and 2 left would go to Pure of Heart.

But that depends of players gear and own preference. Since it's just last 10-15 talents in holy tree to play around, prot is set like that.

Um, you're retarded. You're wanting 2 points I had to put somewhere in a tier2 talent for end tier talents. Learn2Think, what you're saying isn't possible.

[Pennyman]

While you cannot block while casting your also not always casting and devo is rarely to never used in PvP. It's 99% of the time concentration aura and the other 1% of the time it's fire/frost auras. When you block it depends on your gear, I block about 110 in my gear, I also walk around with 9k armor so I often completely block warriors MS's because of mitigation. When you combine that block with the armor it makes a big deal.

Devouring plague is a disease

Lasting judgements at 1 pt is damn near required for group support because you do not have the time to swing once per 10s to keep judgements up, once per 20 is a lot easier to handle. And not using judgements at all is kinda foolish.

Holy guidance is fantastic

My paladin is going to look like this:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=sVxuMgzoxaxVMtcMc

I have good survivability, exceptional healing and worse comes to worse I have about +900 damage to throw around for some serious pain, especially now with AW. Although the sustained damage still sucks the burst potential is high which is what counts in pvp(looking at about 6k burst)

I guess what i was getting at with the first one, is that both are fairly useless. It's also pretty rare that i fully block on my warrior, so i figured it'd be even less with a paladin, but if your fully blockign very many attacks at all, then yes, redoubt is better.

Good call on devouring plague, didnt even think about it.

I agree, something in lasting judgements is nice, at least 1 point.

Holy Guidance i have mixed feelings about. With the current max's of int on a paladin, your gonna find about 400 average, which is 140 dmg/healing. 140 is nothing to laugh at, but with BC out, it'll probably be more, so yeah i'd say good talent.

Overall, i think i will concede my point about imp devo aura for now, and possibly holy guidance too, and have a spec that looks something like.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-paladin/talents.html?0550310252011053115105225100020300000 0000000000000000000000000

And im still on the fence about light's grace. Possibly move those 4 into blessed life like you had them, but not sure.

[Apotheosis]

Light's Grace is the best new talent Paladins got for PvP, in my opinon. I might just start the fight with an otherwise useless rank 1 HL to get the buff started, and with a 20 second timer, it should stay up the whole fight. Two second Holy Lights? Other than increasing our HP/s, this also significantly decreases our vulnerability to Counterspells. I don't have any PvP build of any kind that doesn't have this talent.

[Apotheosis]

As a side note, since I'm bored, I thought I'd breach this possibility.

How's this for a tanking build?

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-paladin/talents.html?0000000000000000000005305133000000000 0000050353500203012501501

Okay, first, a few obvious problems with this build:

1) I won't be judging constantly -- I will cast JoTC, then keep it up with melee swing refreshment. No bonus damage from 8 sec SoC/SoR judgements is considerably less holy damage.

2) The benefit of Sanctified Crusader may be muted -- it's likely that I won't be main tanking with this build, so I would likely be casting SoTC on a mob that is not the first target or at least one that is only the main target for a short duration.

Advantages to this build:

1) While I'd lose JoR judgements, I'd gain a lot of Holy Damage from other sources: Vindication, Crusade, EfaE, Sanctity Aura, Imp. JoTC, Sanctified Crusader.

2) Imp. Sanctity Aura is obviously great for tanking.

3) I gain Divine Purpose.

4) The fact that I'm not judging constantly conserves mana, which may allow me to constantly Consecration Spam. Combined with all the holy damage increases listed above in point 1, this could actually increase total holy damage output more than a traditional Holy/Prot build.

The goal of this build is to get Sanctified Crusader, pure and simple. I don't think any high end guild will reasonably desire 1 tanking Paladin and 1 DPS Paladin for a single raid: this build tries to combine the group benefits of a DPS Paladin (specifically, Imp. Sanctity Aura and Sanctified Crusader) and a tanking Paladin into a single person. I think I can shoot my own idea down, however -- the Sanctified Crusader would only be of benefit when the DPSers were hitting the mob I was tanking. It's just a thought, really, and if anyone has any ideas how to perfect it, I'd be interested.

[RubiksCube]

While the idea is neat, I have one suggestion.

Get rid of eye for an eye, since your investing in Divine Purpose to lower the crit % against you, why invest into a skill that requires you to be crit? Also get rid of Crusade, since 3% of damage ain't to much, especially since you will be tanking.

Instead get Improved Judgement and Empowered Judgement so you can judge a bit more often for single target tanking.

Oh, and if tanking is your whole deal, take some points out of Shield Spec (let's say you block for 200, it will be 60 more damage block, which is fine but nothing to write home about) and out of precision (with the right equip you'll have about 5% to hit anyways, if you're a human paladin you'll also have +swords and +maces and put them into Anticipation so you gain more base defense which helps against crushing blows.

[Trixx]

I was thinking that too rubiks, but it's actually better to just have both. In pvp, you WILL get crit, with both, you'll get crit less, but when you do take that extra damage, you'll still be slightly ahead with eye.

Having it doesn't mean you WANT to get crit...

[Drekor]

Err while tanking you'll have spiritual attunement, you'll have infinite mana unless your healers decide not to heal you.

Light's grace is certainly nice but I've never had issues with HL's cast time nor it's HP/s so improving them isn't big on my list. The main point of a paladin primary healer is survivability and presence. The presence stuff comes naturally just wandering around in our space suit with a shield on, it makes people do really stupid things. The survivability can be improved with blessed life, although I like ardent defender more because it's not an proc based thing.

Also anticipation does nothing for crushing blows, your base defence is 5*lvl (300 at 60) anticipation does not raise your base defence it just adds 10 on top of it like putting on an item with +10 defence. Only thing you can do to stop crushing blows past 300 defence is get very high block % which is why protection is superior for tanking redoubt + holy shield (sanc in there aswell) reduce crushes down to a minimum and with good tank gear you won't be crit either.

[Apotheosis]

While the idea is neat, I have one suggestion.

Get rid of eye for an eye, since your investing in Divine Purpose to lower the crit % against you, why invest into a skill that requires you to be crit? Also get rid of Crusade, since 3% of damage ain't to much, especially since you will be tanking.

Instead get Improved Judgement and Empowered Judgement so you can judge a bit more often for single target tanking.

Oh, and if tanking is your whole deal, take some points out of Shield Spec (let's say you block for 200, it will be 60 more damage block, which is fine but nothing to write home about) and out of precision (with the right equip you'll have about 5% to hit anyways, if you're a human paladin you'll also have +swords and +maces and put them into Anticipation so you gain more base defense which helps against crushing blows.

Thanks Rubiks. I originally had both Empowered Judgement and Improved Judgement, but with the build I'm going for I'm not sure they're needed. Theoretically I would be keeping SoTC up on the mob I'm tanking, which would mean I could judge once at the beginning then keep refreshing with melee swings. I'm not sure I'm going to be judging more than once if this is the case. However, perhaps, instead of judging my own target, I can judge the DPS main target instead (whatever that happens to be at the time), in which case I would need the Judgement talents, as you've suggested. Let me clarify.

In a nutshell, let's imagine 3 mobs, named X, Y, and Z. I'm tanking Z. The DPS is killing X first. If I want to benefit the raid with Sanctified Crusader, I need to judge SoTC on X while I'm tanking Z; that's possible, but difficult, especially if the mobs have any AoE effects. And that would need constant re-judging, in which case, I totally agree, I'd want improved/empowered judgement.

Thanks for the advice.

[RubiksCube]

Judging Righteousness or Command every now and than definitely helps with tanking as a paladin.

For PvP, I still think a paladin should focus around Protection and Holy instead of Protection and Retribution, since being as unkillable as you can be really helps when you're healing and you WILL be healing in PvP more often than you do damage.

But your goal is Sanctified Crusader, right?

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=aZV0xhgZVfetM00Vuxo

would be my attempt at a build in that direction. You gain Empowered and Improved Judgment, as well as Seal of Command at the expense of Crusade and Sanctity Aura (and Improved Sanctity Aura).

The reasons for this are simple. If you play PvP, you'll be playing with a two-hander, this is why you will want to have Seal of Command, simply for solo PvP. Empowered Judgement gives you the ability to judge more often without using to much of your mana, an advantage in both PvP and PvE tanking, you can also judge more often, which is actually better in PvP since judging Command is your only source of controllabe damage.

Crusade is 3% more damage. Imo 3% dmg is not worth investing 3 Talent Points. Period. While Sanctity Aura is good, when tanking you'll seldom use it. Maybe you'll use Devotion, maybe you'll use one of the Resistance Auras, but not Sanctity. In PvP, even if you do damage and don't heal as much, you'll mostly use Concentration Aura. Every class that heals has a talent to improve his chance of not being interrupted by damage up to 70%. Your concentration aura gives them (and yourself if you spec for it in Holy) the 30% needed to make him 100% uninterruptable due to damage.

As for protection, comparing to your build you'd loose BoK, Precision and Shield Spec, but you'll win Improved Hammer of Justice, Guardians Favor and Stoicism. While 10% stun resistance isn't that great for tanking, this really shines in the pvp department. A 30% chance your Blessing of Freedom on a warrior or your Blessing of Protection on a priest will not be dispelled or purged is a huge help and something that the paladin community has always cried, talked and yelled at each other about. Hammer of Justice on a lower cooldown, plus Repentance, plus probably an even lower cooldown due to the pvp set will make you be able to do higher damage on your judgment of command (in PvP of course). Guardian's Favor is something a supporting paladin won't want to live without.

The side-effect is that your seal won't be purged all of the time now, which is particulary good in PvP. Before, a Paladin could be robbed of all his offense abilities and reduced to auto attacking by a purge or a dispel.

As you can see, I basically took up your build and modified it to fit my needs for PvP'ing (solo or group) AND off-tanking in instances. If you focus more on tanking, you might take out Stoicism and Imp Hammer of Justice and take up Anticipation, because +10 Basedefense is really good for tanking.

[Soruss]

What builds would you guys recommend for leveling 1-70?

[RubiksCube]

That really depends if you're leveling solo or in a group. I leveled my paladin with a strong Retribution spec. Get to Seal of Command as soon as possible. With the level 20 quest you get a really strong 2h weapon which fits Seal of Command perfectly. For just leveling, I'd also spec Pursuit of Justice, sind movement speed helps until you get 40. At 40 I'd mostly spec Holy, which makes healing easier while you're killing melee mobs and it boosts your strength (get holy strength for leveling, you'll have more strength than int, so you'll get more out of it).

I can't give you a specific way, as I leveled in a trio with two warriors and put more points into healing early on and got myself some "of the Eagle" and "of the Gorilla" gear from the AH.

Really, the funnest way to level up is with a warrior, you can do almost any quest and seldom get ganked.

[Soruss]

That really depends if you're leveling solo or in a group. I leveled my paladin with a strong Retribution spec. Get to Seal of Command as soon as possible. With the level 20 quest you get a really strong 2h weapon which fits Seal of Command perfectly. For just leveling, I'd also spec Pursuit of Justice, sind movement speed helps until you get 40. At 40 I'd mostly spec Holy, which makes healing easier while you're killing melee mobs and it boosts your strength (get holy strength for leveling, you'll have more strength than int, so you'll get more out of it).

I can't give you a specific way, as I leveled in a trio with two warriors and put more points into healing early on and got myself some "of the Eagle" and "of the Gorilla" gear from the AH.

Really, the funnest way to level up is with a warrior, you can do almost any quest and seldom get ganked.

It'll probably be solo. I haven't decided if I'm going to drop my shaman for pally yet however. It's doubtful that I'll have any warrior butt buddies though.

[RubiksCube]

Leveling a paladin solo, you should really take the retribution route to Seal of Command, then spec the pve damage talents from there on:

5/5 Benediction
2/2 Improved Judgment
3/5 Parry or 3/3 Imp. Crusader if you use JotC much
1/1 Seal of Command

At 20, get yourself some buddies to help with the Level 20 Quest. A good group of level 20's can easily do that quest.

5/5 Conviction
2/2 Pursuit of Justice (This is exceptionally good for the long travels while low level questing)
2/3 Crusade
1/1 Sanctity Aura
3/3 Twohand Spec
3/3 Crusade
5/5 Vengeance
1/1 Repentance
4/5 Divine Purpose
5/5 Fanaticism
1/1 Sanctified Crusader

You're now at level 50 and start speccing in Holy

5/5 Holy Strength
5/5 Spiritual Focus
3/3 Healing Light

It basically doesn't matter how you spec from 50 on, you can put 13 into Holy and 7 into Prot to get Guardian's Favor which should be a pretty viable Retribution/Support Spec, you can also give up on Sanctified Crusader, which imo is really a PvE spell and get 21 into Holy to gain Divine Favor. That only applies of course, if you wanna stay Retribution after leveling. You might want to respec to get rid of Pursuit of Justice at 70 though, just enchant your boots and you're good to go.

[Soruss]

Once I get 70 I'll be specing for pure PvP support. So I'll probably try variations of the other builds in this thread.

[RubiksCube]

In Burning Crusade I'll focus on a PvP Support Healer Build with some tanking ability because I think in the 5-man parts of the dungeons having a paladin as either offtank or offhealer will be pretty good.

The build I had in mind for this would be this one:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=aVxuMxu0eoZVMtcMIzM

I will do lot's of Arena Skirmishes with a Warrior, and prolly some 5 on 5 if I find myself a good team, so basically it's focussed around PvP some more than PvE tanking.

Anyone care to comment?

[SandDemon]

While the idea is neat, I have one suggestion.
...you'll have about 5% to hit anyways, if you're a human paladin you'll also have +swords and +maces and put them into Anticipation so you gain more base defense which helps against crushing blows.

Um, no offense...but why human over dwarf? +sword/+mace isn't that big of a deal considering you can get 5% in gear easy and seriously, how badass is stoneform to turn that down? Stoneform is invaluable in the right situation, *especially* pvp.

If I was going tanking this would be my build...

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=qZVMhIr0zxtxZVf0tMczb

Few key points:
1) Reckoning now is a pure and simple tanking ability. Double swings, double SoR hits, more aggro.
2) Holy shield is *key* to keeping aggro and mitigating damage - there's a reason it says "generates more aggro" and that extra aggro stacks when Blessing of Sanctuary procs
3) Ardent Defender is just pure badass

It's real tempting to lose some of Ardent Defender and one point in One-handed Spec for some Empowered Judgement, but mana regen was never really a problem. As someone who has tanked a lot of high end instances (MC is as far as I got before I switched to the priest), I can tell you that your biggest problems are going to be aggro, not damage itself - the paladin is a procupine and that's how you need to play one. Nothing says paladin like blocking and dealing like 300+ damage (and that's real easy to do).

Actually, this build wouldn't be too bad if you had someone with Sanctity Aura already in your party (there's always some orange hammer idiot around in alliance land) - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=qxVZVMhIr0zxpxZVf0x. It'd give you more damage with SoR/JoR and more strength (10% aien't bad considering if you block a lot).

Oh and if you haven't started, you better get to collecting the Deathbone set - it's a bitch but by a BIG margin some of the best paladin tanking gear in the game. Get the leggings with the ZG enchant to get massive sta/def bonuses with mana regen.

If you're doing pvp, just go a support role - it's what paladins are best at there, not damage.

[RubiksCube]

Well some of the Deathbone Parts are good, but it lacks stamina. I just hope there will be more real paladin gear with +Def on it in Burning Crusade, but I guess there will since paladins got a taunt now.

Right now, there's only 1 Part of Plate with +def AND int on it :(


SD: I said Human Paladin, because he already has 2 Human Paladins and my guess is he'll not be rolling a third just for stoneform. Human or Dwarf really depends on your playstyle, if you PvP a lot Dwarf maybe a tad better due to stoneform, if you like PvE human is better (esp. for the reputation bonus).

Overall, Humans outshine Dwarfs because of Perception for PvP, +Maces/Swords for PvE and the Reputation Bonus for both in my opinion.

Nevertheless, being Horde now it'll be Bloodelf anyways, can some of you beta players gimme a heads up as to how good the Bloodelf Racial really is? It sounds wicked, but you never know.

[SandDemon]

Dont see really how Reputation affects pvp, but too each his own.

The best part about the deathbone set is it's only 5 pieces with great bonuses, and in-fact, you don't need all 5. The last bonus of +1% parry is actually detrimental to a tanking paladin because you don't want to parry, you want to shield block - so you can ditch the last one (probably the gloves since there are better options).

You don't really need int as a paladin, especially with that new ability where you gain mana when someone heals you - regen is everything honestly. Saying you ditch the gloves, you can have 56 defense in 4 pieces only assuming the ZG enchant - that's not bad at all. You have the rest of your entire set to get some stamina with defense really being an after thought since with talents you'd be sitting with 366 defense already.

It's entirely possible nowadays to tank, but my real question is how that taunt works.

[RubiksCube]

Dont see really how Reputation affects pvp, but too each his own.

The best part about the deathbone set is it's only 5 pieces with great bonuses, and in-fact, you don't need all 5. The last bonus of +1% parry is actually detrimental to a tanking paladin because you don't want to parry, you want to shield block - so you can ditch the last one (probably the gloves since there are better options).

You don't really need int as a paladin, especially with that new ability where you gain mana when someone heals you - regen is everything honestly. Saying you ditch the gloves, you can have 56 defense in 4 pieces only assuming the ZG enchant - that's not bad at all. You have the rest of your entire set to get some stamina with defense really being an after thought since with talents you'd be sitting with 366 defense already.

It's entirely possible nowadays to tank, but my real question is how that taunt works.

Reputation affects PvP (right now at least) as in you have to grind reputation with the BG's to get the rewards, which is faster as a human.

Anyways, the new taunt works like this: You pull 4 mobs, start wacking on the one you tank, the priest heals and gets the aggro of the other three, now you target the priest, press the taunt and the attackers turn over to you. Actually I like that one better than the warrior taunt. It has a 15 seconds cooldown. Basically I think it'll make AE tanking much easier for a paladin. It also has a 40! yard range, instead of 5 for the warrior version.

[Istari]

The pally taunt is pretty amazing. I've been using it as another support role in beta. If you can't get a heal off in time, use it to save you some time on your target. If someone pulls aggro, you can take some of the pain train away :) I was getting some laughs out of our hunter who kept feigning death when pulling aggro yet I'd already taunted mobs off of him. Since we are in plate its not that big of a deal to take some hits. I would recommend having spiritual focus though as you will lose casting time after you taunt and continue to heal yet take hits.

So far I have been ret build for leveling up in Beta. It's nice to have some utility in ret now for groups also, you can pretty much always have Vindication up on a target if you can attack it (-15% str, -15% agi to target), and +2% crit from all sources with crusader, and +6% healing to your group members from all sources with improved sanctity.

Right now SoR is very powerful, pretty much everyone expects it to be toned down. There's really no reason to use SoC at the moment :p

Once I hit 70 I'd probably switch to a healing/raiding setup as I'll be PvPing with a new Draenei Shaman.

[Kas]

Yeah the new taunt is great. 40 yard range too, which has a lot of nice implications. I've also specced ret for the first time ever and the utility in 5 mans is actually kind of nice. A repentance + stun is long enough to CC a mob in a 3-4 pull if you don't have enough sheeps/traps/etc. The ranged taunt is great as a tank or off-tank. At least coming in with existing healing gear, I've still had no problems being a primary healer in hellfire or the first part of coilfang with that spec, I don't know if it will get harder.

I will probably still end up deep holy and then either some ret/prot or a mix at 70, but I'm really considering ret from 60-70 now.

Also, I just created a macro for the taunt.

/assist
/cast Righteous Defense
/targetlasttarget

That doesn't leave you attacking the target though. I've tried /cast Attack but that doesn't seem to be working correctly either. Remembering to hit attack is a little easier than switching to target the priest (or whoever) and switching back.

[Trixx]

Nevertheless, being Horde now it'll be Bloodelf anyways, can some of you beta players gimme a heads up as to how good the Bloodelf Racial really is? It sounds wicked, but you never know.

Haven't tried it in pvp, but it's really nothing great. It doesn't lock down the school of magic if you catch someone casting, and two seconds is really negligable in pvp, could be useful for setting up a fear on a shaman without worrying about earth shock though...


The pally taunt is pretty amazing. I've been using it as another support role in beta. If you can't get a heal off in time, use it to save you some time on your target. If someone pulls aggro, you can take some of the pain train away I was getting some laughs out of our hunter who kept feigning death when pulling aggro yet I'd already taunted mobs off of him. Since we are in plate its not that big of a deal to take some hits. I would recommend having spiritual focus though as you will lose casting time after you taunt and continue to heal yet take hits.

The pally taunt is really good. When I first got into alpha, and was running hfc a lot, I'd taunt mobs off the warrior, and run towards the back of my group. None of them understood what was going on, and the bad warriors would just sit there for a few seconds before realizing the mob was gone =x

My current arena build is this :

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=qVxhMtuheszZV0xpM

I see a lot of you thinking about holy/prot, but while it sounds nice on paper, eye for an eye is really a must atm in 2v2 arena. A lot of times groups will try to focus you to force you to shield early, and many times eye will be my share of dmg for the warrior to finish off. Plus, unless you have good raiding gear, and a lot of +dmg, your dps in holy/prot is gonna be really bad.

[RubiksCube]

I really don't know if I could live without Guardian's Favor. Isn't it absolutely incredible, especially for Arena? I don't know how long a match lasts, but having another Blessing of Protection that 2 minutes earlier or a Blessing of Freedom that lasts 6 seconds longer is really good I figured.

If you rely on the support blessings as much as I used to do in PvP, Stoicism is a definite must-have, so that's at least 17 points Protection for me.

So, why do you prefer Eye for an Eye over Stoicism and Guardian's Favor?

I had EfaE for a long time, and never really noticed it making a difference. How noticable is it in Arena PvP?

[Trixx]

Because 2v2's in the game are short, and you can't completely rely on your teammate to kill 2 people all by himself. Besides, you become way too vulnerable being so far into holy. As for eye for an eye, think of it as a defensive ability like blessed life.

[Jekal]

eye for an eye is bad as fuck, it doesn't reduce the amount of damage you take at all, and if something hits you hard enough that the eye for an eye does significant damage to the person that hit you, you're gonna be dead anyways, it might not be as complete garbage in beta as it is right now cus shit hits alot harder in beta, but in the end I doubt it'll be worth it.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=qVxhMxuhestZAb0t
that one would work for more healing and spell damage

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=axxhMZZEb0t0cuVIst
this one is more damage intensive for huge melee train burst,not that much healing, but enough to get you through a really fast 2v2

[RubiksCube]

Okay, I just saw the screenshot in your webalbum with the 2k EfaE Crit. Does it still factor spell damage btw?

Another question, since Khorium Ward seems to be a Paladin or Shaman Set (3 Part Bonus is ~50 Healing) what kinda weapon is the Khorium Champion?

[inability2sleep]

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=aZxGp00I0xZEb0tM0uiho
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=sxxhMxZZEbMt00uihot
i am going to test this both specs when TBC released.