Current Rogue Builds (new thread for 1.12 update)

[Miragul]

With Kintoun's original post being a little outdated now since we have a talent revision forthcoming in 1.12 I felt it appropriate to start a new thread so we could discuss some of the more creative talent builds attainable through the review. Note: Be aware that the 1.12 talent calculator on Blizzard's site is currently speculative since the update hasn't occured at this time. There could be changes.

I've been a dagger rogue since beta and long before it was popular so I will get this started with a build I threw together based on daggers and PvP with a little PvE/faction grinding ability for good measure.

Please try and post your reasons for your build similar to the following format

PvP Dagger Build (Kill and Conceal)

Main Build Focus: Max burst damage with good survivability against cloth/leather wearers for hit and run killing

Strengths: High BS/Ambush damage
Good crit % bonus
Good Survivability

Weaknesses: Not tailored to PvE/Sword build
Ambush crit % could be higher
Combo point generation due to no SF


http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogues2/talents.html?3053201050000003203050021550100000050 00000000000000

Assassination 19 pts

Improved Eviscerate 3/3
Malice 5/5
Ruthlessness 3/3
Murder 2/2
Relentless Strikes 1/1
Lethality 5/5

Combat 27 pts

Improved Gouge 3/3
Improved Sinister Strike 2/2 (PvE/Grinding)
Improved Backstab 3/3
Precision 5/5
Improved Sprint 2/2
Improved Kick 1/2
Dagger Specialization 5/5
Dual Wield Specialization 5/5
Blade Flurry 1/1 (PvE/Grinding)

Subtlety 5 pts

Opportunity 5/5


I had considered going 2/5 into Lighting Reflexes instead of SS like I have in the past because I almost never use SS in PvP, but I felt SS was the better choice here since it couples well with Blade Flurry when grinding or in some raid situations. I'm not big into having a large dodge % anyway. Feel free to critique or add your thoughts.

[Chopchop]

same builds as before

[Miragul]

same builds as before

How are they the same again? Some were changed and some were moved to different tiers in their respective trees...

There may be similarities, but they are by no means the same.

[Chopchop]

the points still come out the same

[Miragul]

....

Your logic is flawed.

[orge]

that build is terrible, just fyi.

[Miragul]

that build is terrible, just fyi.

Says the sword spec PvE rogue. PvP more imo.

I should have put a disclaimer somewhere in there for the faint of heart that don't PvP much (I forgot the majority of rogues who visit these boards are PvE minded). This build addresses some PvE needs I had while still allowing me to PvP without being gimped. I have more experience PvPing than a lot of people that will read this so feel free to come up with your own build from your experience. The above build was my attempt at trying something a little different, but more than likely I will be sticking with a variation of my usual build...

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogues2/talents.html?3053201150010003023000000000000000550 05303000010000

[phobic]

im still deciding wether i wanna try out a hemo build or stay daggers

30/8/13 with initiative and sf could be interesting

[Miragul]

I've been tempted to switch to a sword/hemo build also to see how good it is, but I prefer positional "twitch" style PvP so dagger builds are the only builds that don't bore me to death. Still a Hemo build would make for good group PvP.

[Paschli]

PvPing without MoD is kickin' yourself in the nuts :eek:

[Skalathrax]

id put 1 point in remorseless attacks instead of improved exposed armor, if i were you and pvping a lot.

[soujiro]

hey guys :) would you guys be able to give me a little advice with the last few points of my build. this is what i've been using on test server and i really like it, but i'm just wondering if i shifted 4 points from lethality and put them to max out deadliness.. would that give me a bigger overall damage boost? i'm not very good at number crunching.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogues2/talents.html?0053201050000003203000000000000000550 25003030012010


Rogue Talents
Minimum Required Level: 60
Required Talent Points: 51
Assassination Talents - 16 point(s)


Malice - rank 5/5


Ruthlessness - rank 3/3


Murder - rank 2/2


Relentless Strikes - rank 1/1


Lethality - rank 5/5



Combat Talents - 8 point(s)


Improved Gouge - rank 3/3


Improved Sinister Strike - rank 2/2


Improved Backstab - rank 3/3



Subtlety Talents - 27 point(s)


Master of Deception - rank 5/5


Opportunity - rank 5/5


Elusiveness - rank 2/2


Camouflage - rank 5/5


Improved Ambush - rank 3/3


Improved Sap - rank 3/3


Preparation - rank 1/1


Dirty Deeds - rank 2/2


Deadliness - rank 1/5


basically i've been using daggers and i want to know which one will give me more damage overall (in a pvp setting not raid), 1/5 lethality + 5/5 deadliness, or 5/5 lethality and 1/5 deadliness.

thanks :)

[Miragul]

Well every 14 attack power = 1 (base) dps so let's say you had 5/5 Deadliness (10% attack power) and were geared out enough to have near 1000 attack power unbuffed. That would give you 100 extra attack power putting you at 1100.

So that extra 100 attack power will give you around 4.5 dps added to your base damage.

With 5/5 in Lethality you get 30% critical strike damage bonus to the specific abilities mentioned which is a fairly big damage boost to SS, BS and Hemmorage.

Being a backstab/ambush rogue, I will use backstab as an example here. I believe the damage bonus for Backstab at Rank 8 (Level 60) is 210 so 210*30% = 63. That's enough of a bonus on every backstab for me to go 5/5 Lethality over 5/5 Deadliness.

Sinister Strike bonus at Rank 8 is 68 damage (68*30% = 20.4 bonus damage) so it's a tougher decision for sword spec rogues.

[SKoT]

you'll still need malice and shit though so there's no way your're getting deadliness and anything deep in combat as it is =/

[Miragul]

you'll still need malice and shit though so there's no way your're getting deadliness and anything deep in combat as it is =/

It's not much of a boost in damage for sword rogues anyway. Most people see 10% AP and think it will dramatically increase their damage. The only build I would even consider using Deadliness with is a Hemo build.

[Mita]

Since I'm pve oriented, for 1.12 I'm going to try out:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogues2/talents.html?0053021040000003203250022450100101050 00000000000000
Not having 5/5 Lethality kinda stinks but Adrenaline Rush and finally having a full +10 weapon skill for daggers should more than make up for it.

my current build which still does decently in pvp is:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogues2/talents.html?0053031050000003203250000350100000050 05000000000000

[SKoT]

It's not much of a boost in damage for sword rogues anyway. Most people see 10% AP and think it will dramatically increase their damage. The only build I would even consider using Deadliness with is a Hemo build.

any combat rogue without his head up his ass knows crit > hit > ap. Deadliness would be close for me even with hemo, dunno its just a huge point investment in a talent that really doesnt help you as much as you think.

[SKoT]

Since I'm pve oriented, for 1.12 I'm going to try out:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogues2/talents.html?0053021040000003203250022450100101050 00000000000000
Not having 5/5 Lethality kinda stinks but Adrenaline Rush and finally having a full +10 weapon skill for daggers should more than make up for it.

my current build which still does decently in pvp is:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogues2/talents.html?0053031050000003203250000350100000050 05000000000000

drop AR for that 6%, trust me you'll notice it. Any fight that's longer than like 2 minutes will make you wish you had that last point.

[Noktyn]

What's a good rogue survival spec? OH WAIT!!! NNNMMMMM....leatherlawllawlawlawlawlawlawlawl

[SKoT]

What's a good rogue survival spec? OH WAIT!!! NNNMMMMM....leatherlawllawlawlawlawlawlawlawl

i could make a really mean joke about you right now, but I don't want to be too rude

[Miragul]

i could make a really mean joke about you right now, but I don't want to be too rude

Doo Et!

[soujiro]

What's a good rogue survival spec? OH WAIT!!! NNNMMMMM....leatherlawllawlawlawlawlawlawlawl

hehe... damn can't think of a comeback :P



btw thanks guys. i'll stick with 5/5 lethality then :)

[RubiksCube]

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogues2/talents.html?3253201050010003203500122500100000050 00000000000000

imo

Coldblood for the occasional Crit Ambush you need. I'm a fan of dual wield spec, but I'm not willing to spend 5 points in 5% to hit I already have.

[Paschli]

Here's what i'll be sticking with until expansion. Vigor is just too big to give up for me with the 4-set bonus from Bonescythe incoming. PvP-oriented.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogues2/talents.html?3251201250013513203000000000000000350 20002000000000

[Mita]

drop AR for that 6%, trust me you'll notice it. Any fight that's longer than like 2 minutes will make you wish you had that last point.

I went over the #s with a couple people and AR is a definite boost in dps and will only get better as combat dagger rogues get better equipped.

[SKoT]

I went over the #s with a couple people and AR is a definite boost in dps and will only get better as combat dagger rogues get better equipped.

AR gives you an extra 150 energy every 6 minutes. An extra point in lethality will make your backstabs crit 6% harder.

Ill consider with dagger spec you'll have about 32 or 33 crit. With imp backstab ill put your backstabs at a 62.5% chance to crit so itll be rounded off. Fully buffed a very well geared rogue is sitting around 291-331 damage range. That makes an average of 311 damage unmitigated. Backstab lays on 150% weapon damage plus 225. That makes the average backstab untalented noncrit 691.5 or 692. Now, lets consider that you have(in 1.12) oppotunity which makes all of your backstabs 20% higher bringing 692 to 829.8 or 830.

So we'll give an average backstab 830 noncrit and 1660 crit w/out lethality. AR will give you an extra 150 energy or two and a half backstabs. With 4/5 lethality those 1660 crits will be 2058.4 or 2058. With 5/5 lethality those 1660 crits will be 2158.

So, with a 62.5% chance to crit backstabs that makes your backstab damage for each one

4/5 noncrit = 830 crit = 2058 Average = 1597.75 or 1598
5/5 noncrit = 830 crit = 2158 Average = 1659.75 or 1660

An average fight we'll say takes about 7 minutes. In 7 minutes time you regen 4200 and including the 100 you start out with you get 4300. That gives you about 70 backstabs per fight. Also, I'll grant that AR will give an extra 2 backstabs and an opportunity to throw in an extra 3 point evis with 32.5 crit would equal 795 extra damage. The extra point in lethality gives your ambushes an average of 62 more damage per backstab. So, just including the backstab damage and that of the token 3 point evisc, you end up with a damage of.

WITH AR - 115851
WITH 5/5 - 116200

After doing all that math I mean, it is close damage wise, but I guess in the end it is close enough to make it personal preference.

[Vengeance]

If you're going to go anywhere near 31 points in combat, you should definately pick up AR. Keep in mind, it's also a great PvP talent, as well as good for grinding. Losing 1 point in lethality is nothing compared to the versatility AR gives you.

Additionally, SkoT, AR's cooldown in 1.12 is 5 minutes. You also based all your calculations on a 7 minute fight, but only used AR once (Even now you'd be able to use it twice).

[SKoT]

yea i know, but after crunching the original number i noticed that the randomness of parries and dodges would make more of a difference than those several thousand points of damage. But it would make it almost identical on paper # wise.

[Skylla]

Lethality only affects your critical strike bonus damage aka the crit portion. So losing a point in lethality you only lose ~3% damage off your bs crit not 6%. So that 1660 crit would be ~1910 with 5/5 lethality and ~1860 with 4/5 lethality.

[phobic]

im 24/3/24, its fun

hadnt played hemo since way back in late 2004/early 2005

[Erynâr]

Miragul:

in pvp i would defenatly go for a 30/8/13 sealfate build.
in my experience you just don't get enough combo points without seal fate to be a effective croud controler. i mean you got 100 energie and every backstab/ambush costs 60 energie that means you will have to wait a tick just to get 2 combo points. that sucks! 3 more ticks to get 3 combo points and so on. with seal fate u can have 4 combo points in 1 tick after opening!
and if you choose 3/3 initiative instead of 3/3 imp ambush u can have 5 combo points instead of just 2!!!

your burst dmg is much lower without sealfate, too.
so tell me why not go seal fate? it looks to me like if you want to stay semi effective in pve with 21 in combat.
coz if you want to stay really effective in pve as a dagger rogue i would go for 15/31/5.
i can't see why one would like to abandon lethality or adrenaline rush if u can have both at once! and weapon expertice is a must have in pve.
ok u need to drop relentless strikes and ruthlessness but that is no problem for a dagger combat rogue! because u will never do much finishers anyway. every 3 points (3 backstabs) u cast slive and dice and you are fine. u will only have enough combo points for a evis if u use adrenaline rush, which is every 5 minutes.

oh yes and now a quick explanation why i choose a 30/8/13 build for pvp and why i would go for initiative instead of imp ambush as well.

Why not imp ambush?
If you've got a basic crit rate of 30% (which is alot without dagger spec) your improve ambush talent would grant you a crit chance of 75%. that's a hell of a lot. But how often do you use ambush?
do you use ambush against shamis? rather not.
do you use ambush against warriors? rather not.
what about paladins? rather not.
what about druides? only in caster form.
what about rogues? sometimes.
mages? defenetly.
priests? some people do, i prefer to keep em in stunlock though.
warlocks? same as priests.

so there is only one class where u would allways use ambush instead of cheap shot, eh? great so why not waist 3 point in imp ambush when u got cold blood anyway.
ok cold blood could be more effective on a 5 point evis, but then do u use evis very often or do u prefere kidney shot? it depends.
and i wouldn't mind using a 5 point evis without cb anyway.

but what happens if ur imp ambush doesn't crit? well yes if it doesn't crit, u are screwd. u have got only 1 cpoint, u haven't done enough dmg and everybody spotted you. ok its only a chance of 25% but is that chance not high enough to be avoided? imagin how often ur stuns fail on a orc! ...only 25%

HENCE, i would skill initiative, u got a talent which affects both ambush and cheap shot, u have still got a 100% crit ambush every 3 minutes which has a 75% chance of gaining 3 combo points.
and in 70% of all your fights you won't use ambush as an opener anyway.
so why not put 3 points into initiative?
give it a try, it owns.

well and now another reason why i would use a 30/8/13 build in group pvp. it is called improved kidney shot.
it gives everybody nuked on that target 9% more dmg. awesome!!!
that means u are superb for suporting assist trains! mages, warriors, shamies, rogues, they will love u ;D

well thats enough for today ^^

cya dudes

Edit: sorry for all they mistakes i have probably done but i am not english, so be gentle :D

Edit:
Combat dagger built (pve)
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogues2/talents.html?3050200050000003243050000550100201050 00000000000000

Assassination dagger built (pvp)
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogues2/talents.html?3053201050213503203000000000000000550 00300000000000

if you go for imp ambush or initiative is obviously ur decision ;)
well and i'd go for 2points ss for farming instead of 2% dodge, u will still use ss now and then.

[Otzo]

1/3 of EU rogues going 18/8/25 after Perkulator 5, damn wannabes. :P

[Erynâr]

for pvp ?
what build would that be ?
haven't seen that vid ;/

[RubiksCube]

I also play 30/8/13 right now, simply because I feel more comfortable with that build as opposed to the hybrid builds that are poping up left an right.

I thought I'd play a Assassination/Combat Hybrid, because of Imp. Sprint, but as Erynar said, you need something to gaing combo points quickly. Each tree has something to do that, Adrenaline Rush in Combat, Seal Fate in Assassination, Initiative in Subtlety.

21/8/22 was viable because it had Initiative to gain CP quickly.

An assassination combat hybrid just doesnt have anything to gain quick CP with.

I don't know about Initiative instead of Imp. Ambush, that is something I'd have to try that out. He's right about cheap shot though.

[Otzo]

for pvp ?
what build would that be ?
haven't seen that vid ;/

18/8/25 for outdoor ganking :P the vid aint even done yet but afaik hes making it atm.

[Erynâr]

oh well, have seen Perkulator 4 now.
quite a nice video.
the only problem is u are quite useless in pve with that build and if you raid naxxramas nobody will like a rogue which doe less dmg and takes more dmg than a hunter.
hence you would need to unlearn talents all the time ;)

but still, i guess it is a powerful build especially with prep.
another mighty build is the sword/mace/fistweapon hemo build
coz i don'T have a sword which is good i havn't tryed it but i know a few guys who play it and they do impressive hemo crits !!
and the new rupture just owns...

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?3052001250000002000000000000000000450 24300003111151

it can be changed slightly of course but, to play that build means loooaaads of combo points! FTW!

[Otzo]

Eh i was speaking of a coming new perk movie in that movie hes 110 energy build but sorry for making you confused. :P But yeah specs like that will gimp you and pve guilds usually let like 1 hemo rogue for "support" role and shit. :P

[Erynâr]

hmm, but if u look at his profile, u can see his build is not a 31 energie build.
however 31/8/12 roxx anyway ;D

well we've got a hemo rogue in our guild he's wielding the servo arm and he's doin' hell of a lot dmg, nearly as much as the combat build.
i think hemo builds got buffed a lot.

[Miragul]

Cold Blood/Prep build is the best PvP build right now due to our lack of survivability in preform BG groups. I'm guessing you haven't used Initiative in any sub builds you've tried Erynar, because it builds CP just fine. I've used a SF build since beta and although it builds CP a little quicker, I have had no problem with CB/Prep combo.

Oh and Hemo isn't all its hyped up to be imo. I consistently run over hemo rogues with CB/Prep. Having a hemo rogue in PvE raids and in 10 man groups is nice due to the damage increase for the assist train, but where PvP is concerned it isn't absolutely necessary. The most important thing for a Rogue to concentrate on during their current state in organized BG groups is to stay alive and try to contribute instead of dying every 10 seconds.

[Molakar]

Were thinking of a Combatsword build for pvp (not a big fan of daggers) and pve (not a big fan of daggers). So I came up with something like this: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?3053201000000003240550100050150231000 00000000000000

Why not Lethality? Since I'm not Daggers I'm using SS all the time, I rather free up 5 points to put it into combat instead.

Why not Imp SnD? I'm going to pvp and do some odd scholo,strat,ubrs etc runs, I don't think Imp SnD is going to be such a good thing to have in pvp and I don't think it will be so benificial when I'm in a 5-10 man group.

Why Murder? Only 49 atm, leveling up against mobs (of course) so 2% dmg is always welcome.

Why Ruthlessness? I've always had it and I think I'm going to miss it if I spec out of it.

Why Relentless Strikes? Same as above

Rest talks for it self I think. Anything you want to change in my build?

[grom]

get rid of weapon expertise if you don't want to raid at 60.

[Molakar]

What should I get instead of it? And I don't intend to do zg, mc etc but I do intend to do ubrs, scholo etc.

[Miragul]

Putting them into lethality would help your damage a little.

[Mita]

If you want to pvp, Imp Kick, Imp. Sprint and even 1/2 Endurance are talents you will want to have.

I'd suggest a build like this which is pretty close to what I levelled up as. I had the old Remorseless Strikes which gave a 100% crit on the next ss/bs etc. if I recall.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?3053001050000003200550122050150021000 00000000000000

You could always argue taking the point out of Blade Flurry and putting it into Aggression or Endurance, but with that template you really can't go wrong.

As for expansion, no more combat daggers! seal fate + prep:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-rogue/talents.html?3053031050001315000003203000000000000 00000000522530000301200000000

On second thought, I'll roll a paladin. :(

[Erynâr]

Miragul:
to be honest i havn't tried a prep build in 1.12 yet.
yeah i agree if u say the combo point generation is ok, but i guess u are completley useless if u are discovered.
anyway u are right if you say cb/prep build is best for pvp.

oh yes, and i wasn't trying to say that hemo builds are best, they do have some downsides, but it is a complete different way of playing a rogue which wasn't really possible before.

and yes you are right when u say u need to stay alive. most important thing in pvp, sounds quite simple but to be honest, it is fucking hard ;)

[RubiksCube]

If you want to pvp, Imp Kick, Imp. Sprint and even 1/2 Endurance are talents you will want to have.

I'd suggest a build like this which is pretty close to what I levelled up as. I had the old Remorseless Strikes which gave a 100% crit on the next ss/bs etc. if I recall.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?3053001050000003200550122050150021000 00000000000000

You could always argue taking the point out of Blade Flurry and putting it into Aggression or Endurance, but with that template you really can't go wrong.

As for expansion, no more combat daggers!


You really can't go wrong in boring 2 button mashing playstyle whoohoo

Daggers > any Combat Sword build in terms of being fun to play imo.

[Mita]

You really can't go wrong in boring 2 button mashing playstyle whoohoo

Daggers > any Combat Sword build in terms of being fun to play imo.

Molakar wanted a sword build for pvp, 5/10man instance groups & most likely get those last 11 levels as fast as possible and thats what I gave him.
As for daggers vs swords, I've been a dagger rogue since I hit 60, so you don't need to convince me of anything.

[Chancy]

rawr i support this thread rawr