Is paladin dps really low as all the pally's claim?

[vukers]

Taking one glance at the first page of blizzard forums, I find 3/4 devoted to nerfing Paladins. And all the paladins reply with, "we have no dps".

However, I've yet to see a paladin that doesn't hit hard from lvl 1-50. Does anyone know if Warriors outdamage a Paladin if they were completely geared the same? I ask here and not on an alliance guild, because I am sure you have much more experience fighting them.

[Av]

Everyone want's to protect their cheese. Some people just can't see that paladins are grossly overpowered and should be given to horde instead. However, their dps is hardly the issue.

[Inconsiderable]

Paladins have awesome Talents to gain additional damage and have quite some abilities:

Holy Talents:
Divine Strength: +10% Strength
Holy Shock: (instant cast, 30s cooldown) 365-395 holy damage

Protection Talents (serious.. warrior protection tree is a joke against this):
Reckoning: Gives a 100% chance to gain an extraattack after being victom of a critical strike
Holy Shield: Increases chance to block by 30% for 10 sec, and deals 130 Holy damage for each attack blocked while active. Each block expends a charge. 4 charges.
One-Hand Specialization: +5% dmg

Retribution Talents:
Improved Blessing of Might: Increases the Attack Power bonus of your Blessing of Might by 20%.
Improved Seal of the Crusader: Increases the Attack Power bonus of your Seal of the Crusader and the Holy damage increase of your Judgement of the Crusader by 15%.
Two-Handed Weapon Specialization: Increases the damage you deal with two-handed melee weapons by 5%.
Vengeance: Gives you a 15% bonus to Physical and Holy damage you deal for 8 seconds after dealing a critical strike.
Seal of Command: Fills the Paladin with the spirit of command for 30 sec, giving the Paladin a chance to deal additional Holy damage equal to the damage of the Paladin's weapon. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 30 sec, causing 82 Holy damage anytime the enemy becomes stunned. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.
Precision: Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 3%.
Consecration: Consecrates the land beneath the Paladin, doing 280 Holy damage over 8 seconds to enemies who enter the area.
Conviction: Increases your chance to get a critical strike with melee weapons by 5%.
Blessing of Kings: Places a Blessing on the friendly target, increasing total stats by 10% for 5 minutes. Players may only have one Blessing on them per Paladin at any one time.

All Abilities:
Seal of Righteousness: Fills the Paladin with holy spirit for 30 sec, giving each melee attack a chance to cause 66 additional Holy damage. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will cause 133 Holy damage to an enemy.
Seal of Justice: Fills the Paladin with the spirit of justice for 30 sec, giving each melee attack a chance to stun for 2 sec. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 30 sec, preventing them from fleeing. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time
Blessing of Might: Places a Blessing on the friendly target, increasing attack power by 186 for 5 min. Players may only have one Blessing on them per Paladin at any one time.
Hammer of Justice: Stuns the target for 6 sec.
Seal of the Crusader: Fills the Paladin with the spirit of a crusader for 30 sec, granting 180 attack power. The Paladin also attacks 40% faster, but deals less damage with each attack. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 30 sec, increasing Holy damage taken by up to 140. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.
Retribution Aura: Causes 20 holy damage to any creature that strikes a nearby party member. Players may only have one Aura on them per Paladin at any one time.


No damage output? Hell, thats alot better than Warrior. Okay, after he attacks 40% faster with +180 Attackpower (12 dps; without +15% talent) for some seconds, he "will judge an enemy for 30 sec, increasing Holy damage taken by up to 140 (140 without +15% talent)". Now he puts next Seal.

1H Paladin will do Seal of Righteousness: "giving each melee attack a chance to cause 66 additional Holy damage. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will cause 133 Holy damage to an enemy"

2H Paladin will do Seal of Command: "giving the Paladin a chance to deal additional Holy damage equal to the damage of the Paladin's weapon. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 30 sec, causing 82 Holy damage anytime the enemy becomes stunned. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time."

Lets math the 1H extra holy damage a paladin will do in the 30 seconds:
A random 1h weapon with 2.3 Weaponspeed will be 13 Attacks in 30 seconds.
66 (Active Seal) + 140 (Judgement of last Seal) = 206
206 (Holy Damage) * 13 (Attacks) = 2678 Holy Damage
With the +15% Talent it would be 2951 Holy Damage

Not to mention, whenever you hit the Paladin you get 20 Holy Damage because of the Retribution Aura which could also (not tested) be increased by 140. When you deal a critical strike, he will get a free swing, negating any possible advantage and when he deals a critical strike, his physical AND holy damage is increased by 15%. Oh yea and the Aura isnt enough "Holy Shield: Increases chance to block by 30% for 10 sec, and deals 130 Holy damage for each attack blocked while active. Each block expends a charge. 4 charges." Maybe thats also increased by 140 damage!
And the whole time he has +180 Attackpower (~12 dps; without +20% talent) from his Blessing.


But serious, I couldnt care less about the Damage-Output. By far the worst Talent/Ability combination gives me headache (beside the invuls, dispels, heals, layonhand, stun):

13 Talentpoints in Holy will get:
- 70% chance not to lose casting time while casting holy light
- critical holy light gives 100% mana back
- 100% critical chance on holy light every 2 minutes
- +12% better holy light

Now we have Blessing of Light: "Places a Blessing on the friendly target, increasing the effects of Holy Light spells used on the target by 400 and the effect Flash of Light spells used on the target by 115. Lasts 5 min. Players may only have one Blessing on them per Paladin at any one time" and Holy Light: "Heals a friendly target for 1246 to 1388" (2.5 sec casting time)

1246-1388 and +12% = 1395-1554
1395-1554 *1.5 critical = 2093-2331

Okay.. every 2 minutes a heal like this for 0 mana. But okay, lets add Blessing of Light:

1246-1388 and +12% = 1395-1554
1395-1554 + 400 = 1795-1954
1795-1954 *1.5 critical = 2692-2931

Every 2 minutes a heal like this for 135 Mana. But the 135 dont really count, because the Blessing lasts 5 Minutes.

[Hogart]

Plus they can wear mail/plate and 2hand by default. And get parry as a skill instead of talent. What else? :)

[Kintoun]

Don't forget their free mount, saving them 100g.

I almost died to a reckoning 2h proccing paladin. He was 53 I was 59, I was killing myself as a rogue critting him. He had a HUGE 2h weap with a proc AND Seal of Command. I gave him more free attacks than he had normal attacks. To top it off, he was nub too. He coulda beat me if he realized his Hammer of Justice recharged within our 2min+ fight.

[Firecrak]

Mmmmm 2hders with no talents, polearms...plate, heals, invuls, all the points listed above. How can a paladin, using the same weapon as an equally equipped warrior NOT do the same dps? Apart from MS, Slam and Heroic Strike, we have no actual dps adding moves. MS requires 31 points in arms. Slam is a piece of shit. Heroic Strike....hahahahaha. Theres your answer.

[Ei]

lol pally dps is nice !
I only killed a few mobs with my 60 pally ( after he got talents)
I used omoks mace with the attack power seal and might aura
Normal hit 600dam crit high 1xxx
I call that funny

[Tlear]

Ahh the typical nerf Paladins post, now makes its presence felt even on the nurfed board too! woot

You thought Seal of Command was nasty eh? Ever seen what happens to cloth wearering alliance character when shaman purges +shocks him and then gets two procs of windfury? Instagibed! Seal of command is really a pos, crusader is much better since you can rely on it to do actual dmg unlike command that sometimes procs for a crazy overkill then you go forever without getting anything out of it.

Anyway paladins will get nerfed, they deserve it or not is really irrelevant. The best part is that most likely all the people who think Seal of Command procs like 50% of the time(its more like 15% just for your information and it does less dmg then windfury, can be purged from paladin while windfury cant be dispelled) will get Paladin dmg nerfed(who cares). Paladins are not a good dmg dealer in pvp, why? Simple, fear is reason number one, lack of any kindof snare is reason number 2. To do melee dmg you need to get into melee range and then stay there, that small point alwayse gets forgotten when people type up all the dps numbers.

[Adinion]

The paladins who claim that they don't have dps, is a lie. I had a paladin up to 44, deleted of course and switched back to horde. With seal of command, I've landed a normal crit of 500, and a seal of command crit of 400-600. Its all lies when they claim they aren't overpowered. Main reason why I quit it is because its a boring class, and they need to be nerfed, along with Shamans also.

[Anglakel]

Leave it to a horde forum to completley fuck the paladin classes actual potential up. Hi, Anglakel here, 57 paladin on mal'ganis where the goon squad lives and we are outnumbered 2:1 if you take the concensus of most of the 3rd party population calcs (some say 3:1, some say 1.6:1)

What you guys don't know about the paladin class can just about squeeze into the grand canyon. They are overpowered, yes, but not on the dps side. Here's why.

You all seem to think paladins ontop of being gods among insects get 90 fuckin talent points. This is not the case. Most paladins go for the retribution spec which allows for blessing of kings. We are a party class, and kings bennefits everyone with 10% more stats. I group primarily with a stamina warlock and an arcane/fire mage and this blessing has tons of utility. Getting this magical defensive talent, reckoning, requires 25 points into protection tree which is absolutley the biggest clusterfuck of turtle talents ever. Theoretically the best line up to reckoning is this

5/5 improved devotion
5/5 toughness (wow approaching hard armor cap now if you have any gear)
2/2 improved blessing of protection (why the fuck not i guess)
5/5 seal of fury (you are forgoing a lot of damage and thus tanking ability, so this is your instance seal gents)
3/5 redoubt (what else you gonna spend the last 3 in?)
5/5 reckoning (finally!)

So kintoun you "almost" died to a pally using seal of command and reckoning? Where is seal of command again? oh yeah halfway up the retribution line, so kiss your free crit heal goodbye if you do go this way, and lemme tell ya the free crit heal is manditory cuz on alliance, no one plays a fuckin priest anymore.

The way i grind, you dont wanna suck your mana dry releasing all sorts of useless seals and whatnot, seal of command doesnt stack with the judgement of crusader for some reason so just keep crusader on and pick the weapon with the highest DPS number (what a concept?) unlike warriors who go for the slowest heaviest thing they can find.

Hogart, we get parry as a talent just like warriors.

Inconsiderable: your math is retarded. In your 1h demonstration you fail to take into account that there is a CHANCE to do holy dmg with righteousness, thus it sucks. Your math is based on a guarentee. And why do you multiply the judgement (140 dmg) with 13 attacks? the fuckin skill has a minute cooldown you yutz, and even if it did you would burn ever ounce of mana you had doing that stupidity. And soloing with retribution aura on is totally ridiculous, the damage is negatable compared to devotions downtime reduction. then you go onto holy shield, again we get 51 talents like everyone else, you want 15 in each tree? be my guest... you will die. Your bit on healing is funny too, you claim you dont blow mana on the blessing of light cuz it lasts 5 minutes but if you keep it on you arn't getting blessing of might or kings, whichever you choose to solo with, so you are playing your class incorrectly.

So what a paladin ends up doing to grind is: Blessing of kings, reduces downtime and if you have any strength at all, makes up for the attack power lost to not using blessing of might. You go with devotion aura on, its not worth it to use retribution aura. You use seal of crusader exclusivley, some pallies use that seal of command but i have done the testing and the overall dps is lower because it is inconsistant. 40% IAS with a 20% dmg nerf is better for anything worth grinding (low armor). If you have halfway decent gear you can mop up the undead mobs in winterspring for 320 xp a pop using excorcism after you crit with your weapon because vengence does help holy dmg. You free crit heal every 2 mins, you can go for 20 minutes without drinking, but your kill rate still makes you come in around 28k an hour if you are lucky and the horde doesnt ruin the party.

So in conclusion i suppose, paladins are overpowered yes, not in the dps department, but primarily because we get an almost universal dispell (curses are the only no-go), 1 total invuln and 1 physical invuln every 5 minutes, we get the free crit heal every 2 minutes with talents, and we have as much, if not more, tanking ability than a warrior when we use consecrate for aoe mob pulling. Don't confuse me with a fanboy, i am a long time warrior player and wish they would be returned to pre-"awesome changes" and then left alone. But my guild plays alliance and since we have an alternative plate class, a paladin i will play from now till nerfdom come.

[vukers]

Sorry for causing the semi flame war, but I just wanted to see the opinion here.

Anglakel: Does Consecration draw that much aggro in PvE? The spell description doesn't mention anything about increase aggro, so I was wondering if it effectively rips mobs off healers.

Also, I don't think the complaints come from Paladins being able to grind fast. I think in PvE, the Paladins are fine. I prefer not to have them as our main tanks as they are much more useful as backup tank/healer. In PvP however, something just doesn't seem right about them.

First of all, it is true that they can not snare. But they are also hard as hell to snare too. Paladins using freedom and cleanse can get rid of most snares/freezes.

Now, it makes me wonder how a group of 5 Paladins would do against a more balanced group.

Also, Shaman are not as bad as Paladins. As a Nightelf druid, I can tell you that a fight against a shaman is a lot more fair than a fight against a Pally. Mainly because I can root the shaman (we are assuming he does not use a free action potion), kill his totems, and out heal him. But I can not root a paladin, I can not get rid of his blessings or seals, and I can not outheal his damage (his damage that doesn't even require mana, i might add).

[sweeb]

it dosn't cost a druid mana to swing his weapon either.

[Ei]

imbaladins rule ;D ! I remember the beta whiner class no.1 pallys !( and i was one too ;D )

[Rekuul']

Everytime I fight a paladin I cant help but wonder why their invuln shield isnt changed to be like my VW sacrafice shield. They could even make it soak MORE damage, just as long as they werent completely immune.

Sorry, it just seems to me that paladins are more than well equipped to be the quintisential "durable healer" that they dont need an unstoppable immunity.

Their DPS? Meh I dont really care. I keep them feared. Although it does annoy me that they can remove my dots on top of healing.

-Rek

[Anglakel]

Sorry for causing the semi flame war, but I just wanted to see the opinion here.

Anglakel: Does Consecration draw that much aggro in PvE? The spell description doesn't mention anything about increase aggro, so I was wondering if it effectively rips mobs off healers.

Also, I don't think the complaints come from Paladins being able to grind fast. I think in PvE, the Paladins are fine. I prefer not to have them as our main tanks as they are much more useful as backup tank/healer. In PvP however, something just doesn't seem right about them.

First of all, it is true that they can not snare. But they are also hard as hell to snare too. Paladins using freedom and cleanse can get rid of most snares/freezes.

Now, it makes me wonder how a group of 5 Paladins would do against a more balanced group.

Also, Shaman are not as bad as Paladins. As a Nightelf druid, I can tell you that a fight against a shaman is a lot more fair than a fight against a Pally. Mainly because I can root the shaman (we are assuming he does not use a free action potion), kill his totems, and out heal him. But I can not root a paladin, I can not get rid of his blessings or seals, and I can not outheal his damage (his damage that doesn't even require mana, i might add).

Well heres the thing about most of my groups. I usually AM my own healer. I've done up through temple with me being primary tank/healer and lemme tell ya, the "retarded" paladin player that everyone refers to can't touch this situation with a ten foot pole. So pulling aggro off myself with myself is the least of my concerns. As it turns out, up through BRD and maybe scholo, you can have a group with 2 paladins and 3 dps class and make it pretty snappy. Its not easy on bosses, but you can get it done, especially since paladins at the core are still really good at running away :)

[Selm]

Yes Paladin is the strongest class, either way therre is always going to be a strongest class, every game you play. Instead of learning ways to beat the paladin people ask for nerfs and it's pathetic. I have mages, rogues, and a warrior in my guild I have lost to 1 on 1. I have yet to lose a legit equal level 1 on 1 to any of these classes OUTSIDE MY CLAN. This brings me to the conclusion the majority of horde players and Alliance duelers are not good.

Also you may notice & be told by CB players that end game Paladin isn't as big of a deal, and you can research that yourself by comparing what they gain 5-60 as opposed to other classes. I beleive it evens itself out moreso by 60 and maybe nurfed members can comment on that as for me it's just heresay.

In all honestly I would say the fact I have BOTH shields is unbalanced, and that my cleanse should atleast have a 10 second reset timer because I embarrass several classes by using it. I have however had a really good run by rogues and 2h Warriors, but if my LH is off cooldown ( which I specced obviously ) they aren't gonna win.

I think the reality of this is Paladin is a much easier class to play/master/spec/equip right whereas it would take more timing and strategy to play a different class. So when you get someone who's an excellent gamer playing a Paladin you have problems rl. I am secure saying it's an easy class because I don't have shit left to prove about how good I am.

As far as DPS I don't have a basis of comparison because I have only played a Paladin to this level. I will put a screenshot up and give you an example to prove a couple of my points, not to belittle the guy who's dying in it.
I ran to my grind spot the other day and saw a 47 Priest sitting next to a wall drinking, his bar showed him at about 5/6 mana and he stood up and began casting. If you look at my hotbars you will notice I didn't use 1. Either Invuln shield 2. a potion 3. Lay hands. You can see my DPS vs him in the top left corner and make your own deduction as to whether or not it is alot. Keep in mind I have a 15% crit rate + vengeance and a 2h Weapon vs a Cloth caster.

http://www.oinland.com/Archive/Wow/Vhell.gif

Now here is a screenshot of my DPS vs a Rogue you will notice there is a major difference. You'll notice in this fight I have everything on timer's it's because I attacked them both alone and had to kill the other player first. This is where people start crying nerf, because if you play it right you can beat most pvpers 1 on 2 using your cooldown shit wisely and timing everything right.

http://www.oinland.com/Archive/Wow/stfwtfothelol1on22.gif

Should the class get toned down? Yah. BoP shouldn't be self targetable and Divine Shield is more of a 20 Minute timer spell not 5. That's all your getting out of me I hope it shed some light. If they didn't nerf it however people could still beat them if they learn what spells to use and when. In a perfect world a mmo might not have a strongest class.

[jobanaaa]

Selm, F1, F2, F3? Hmm... you played Ragnarok Online?
btw, HP isn't that great. I belive my warrior hit 3000 hp cap at 48th lvl.

ok, and here is lil fun about paladins. Relax a bit.

http first (http://thenoob.keenspace.com/d/20041101.html), second (http://thenoob.keenspace.com/d/20041104.html) ...

[l-c]

pally aint shit

[demon-surge]

DPS in those screenshots dont mean shit, because people change the variables and they mean different things in different shots.

Paladins have decent DPS, but they are fairly easy to beat. I really dont think of the them as an overpowered class.

Maybe if you spec it completely support, but most people go offensively, making it fairly easy to counter in a fight.

[oupupu]

ok dude who put up pictures.....your dps was 3 times lower vs the rogue cuz u were stunned for half the time...and yes paladins are over powerd...i don't care whatswhats but a lvl 36 paladin should not be doing 130 damage to me per hit......when i'm a lvl 44 warrior with 3k armor....they have to many good abilities....mortal strikes healing reduction godo vsa paladine?? forget about it invul shield there goes ms healing effect....useless

i'm only lvl 47 right now but i don't touch a paladine with a 20 foot pole cuz i'll get owned...

laying of hands = free full heal with 5 min cooldown?

[Doodle]

paladins are pretty overated, i play one in Europe cb, it aint all the shizzle when you get to the higher lvls, and basicly if your abbilitys are on cooldown our pretty much dead, not to mention you rely 100% on PURE luck for damage, trust me this is coming from a pally, its all about LUCK for me

won't be going paladin in retail its just to boring to stand and wack something on auto attack and pray for a crit or command proc

belive it or not, im allready set for gnome warrior for retail

ooh and btw this is how you beat a pally, had smart players do this to me

Shaman: Purge is your friend, use it, purge our seals and blessings INCLUDING blessing of protection it can be purged! every time we get in melee range purge us, use frostshock and kite. and when the time comes and we put up divine shield use this time to first aid and switch to ghostwolf and run of and gain some distance and wait the shield out, eat drink if you really want to overkill, then come back and kill him

not to mention after he used our stun you can heal yourself any time, we cant interupt you, if his abilitys are on cooldown you should almost instant win

my 50 shaman does not have so much trouble vs a paladin, infact
Shaman > all =P

Hunter: Spam viper sting and concussion shot, if he gets in melee wingclip and run to gain distance, wait the duration of WC out and land a concussion, rince and reapeat,
the bane of paladins?

tbh you stand a big big chance of winning as a hunter, if his abillitys are on cooldown you should instant win

Warrior: Ok this will be hard for you, but it HAS happend that i got killed by warriors becuse i let my guard down lol, one trick is get him down to say 40% 30% health, the pally feeling all godly wont shield becsue he cant see himself loosing this, he will likley wait a bit longer to shield, this is when you use MS a split second before your normal attack to get that "double hit" and directly after hit execute, if your lucky the pally goes down, but you need to save up lots of rage or in someway gain it
you can also stun him and do this
tbh, warrior vs a pally is very hard for the warrior, but you win if his abillitys are on cooldown

Rogue: plate armor not good for you, but the rogues are just pure evil, keep him stunned, use CC abilitys like blind etc to first aid, gouge to regen energy to keep him stunned, USE INSTANT POISON all other is a waste, again like the warrior you will have a hard time but you got a much much bigger chance of beating him if you do it right, if his abiliitys are on cooldown its a win win for you

Priest: priest played right just owned me, hands down. they heal better for less mana, i cant do crap about there shield becuse i cant damage it enough to bring it down, neither can i purge it like the shaman can, the AOE fear spell is a pain to me, mana burn IS death to me
basicly Fear, burn, burn, dead pally
vs a good priest i dont stand a chance in hell, sitting duck here
maybe if i LoH and get a few lucky crits and command procs i might win, 80% of the time i dont

Mage: Hit fast and hard, its hard for you till kill him becuse you go OOM mid fight vs the pally, do the sheep drink trick or just ride of to regen, one way or another you will win in the end. you can also sheep run if you like, go ahead i cant stop ya... how ever if my abillitys are on a cooldown, you win

warlock: fear :evil: + succubus, mana drain me spam curses i cant clense curses, its a 50/50 chance here depend on if i resist fear or not, if his abillitys are on cooldown you win

druids: OMG WHAT DID THEY DO WITH BEAR FORM! lol cant hardly damage the bear, but youc ant really root me either i just clense it, my experience vs druids is very limited but its not a fast kill anyway when they go bear, sorry cant be so much help here druids are rare in our beta, specially the tauren ones, if his abillitys are on cooldown you win


But just remember, once every hour I WIN! hehe

[l-c]

as a priest every alliance class is easy to beat but the pallly, I still beat then 7/10 but laying of the hands is scary sometimes.

Druids on the other hand are extreamly poor and at lvl 55 i was able to beat supposeldy the "best" druid on the server some lvl 60 dude thats been 60 for weeks now 4 duels in a row and i still got medicore equip.

[Anglakel]

ok dude who put up pictures.....your dps was 3 times lower vs the rogue cuz u were stunned for half the time...and yes paladins are over powerd...i don't care whatswhats but a lvl 36 paladin should not be doing 130 damage to me per hit......when i'm a lvl 44 warrior with 3k armor....they have to many good abilities....mortal strikes healing reduction godo vsa paladine?? forget about it invul shield there goes ms healing effect....useless

i'm only lvl 47 right now but i don't touch a paladine with a 20 foot pole cuz i'll get owned...

laying of hands = free full heal with 5 min cooldown?Try 60 minutes, with talents you can get it down to 40, and it purges (most) your mana so that better be the last ditch effort as a paladin.

[Doodle]

the talent is a waste of 2 points
but higher ranks of LoH actually restores your mana, it should only be used when you cant heal anymore becuse your oom, when you use it it actually makes you gain more mana =)

[Selm]

ok dude who put up pictures.....your dps was 3 times lower vs the rogue cuz u were stunned for half the time...

Ok so case in point, by that guy using his class properly he made my DPS shit. That backs ^ the post by the WMD guy which I also agree with. Learn to play your fucking classes and Paladin won't be a problem. I gurantee I would beat them also if I rolled horde. Most of what Pala gets other classes get in some way shape or form, they just either fail to utilize it or fail to spec it in talents. This goes back to the whole "most players suck" theory :<
Only thing I really see that is out of hand on Paladins is the double Invuln and Cleanse. Some casters literally can not do any good damage on a Pala because of the cleanse especially a Druid.

The kids in the 1 on 2 screnshot just aren't any good. I have a variety of screenshots of people losing 1 on 2 just like they did. Then I'll run into other players same level who give me an intense fight on the same classes.

People have this Rock Scissors Paper mentality and think one class should beat another by default just based on theory. It's bullshit. Sone 16 yr old runs up to a mage on a rogue, gets jacked, then cries nerf because a rogue is "sposed to beat a mage". Next thing you know him and his peers are on Blizz forums typing NERF over and over in caps with a lvl 19 Undead icon to the left of their post. I would venture to say the above posters who said Pala is np are probably some of the better pvpers on their server.

www.Oinland.com

[Crosse]

57 paladin on mal'ganis where the goon squad lives and we are outnumbered 2:1 if you take the concensus of most of the 3rd party population calcs (some say 3:1, some say 1.6:1)

Goon Squad outnumbered!?!

[kyliejennings]

if a pally was played as a backup healer they would be much overpowerd but since people dont do that for some reason ( solo xp or what have you) you dont see that often or dont even see a pally with a group of people its hard to say really.

most basic strat in pvp is to kill healers first then classes with low hp.

having a healer always die last is not good in PvP for the people fighting you. no one targets a pally first or second always last because you gotta do so much dmg PLUS wait for the shiled/loh or whatever else they have to go down before he can even consider them to die. it really is a waste of time trying to kill the pally (alliance backup healer) first.

thats my main beef with paladins they are so overpowerd in GROUP pvp its insane, but since not many people play paladins as backup healers you dont see this issue much but hell one day people will understand and maybe they will respec for PvP battlegrounds and such.

ALSO as a class with heals they do pretty nice dps.



Edit: This is why i wanted to go alliance so bad cus pally's just own shamans as backup healers, but i guess totems are nice aswell. a backup healer with plate and a shiled cant go wrong with that!

[keboman]

Or a main healer in cloth with a shield and better survivability STILL than anything else in the game.

[kyliejennings]

Or a main healer in cloth with a shield and better survivability STILL than anything else in the game.

you are wrong

[keboman]

? with 2 shield and a LOH they're worse than a priest?

[kyliejennings]

? with 2 shield and a LOH they're worse than a priest?

yes. dont forget plate and a load of hp

[keboman]

Hmm I guess that makes sense.. most of my experience with PVP is very short and swift.. situations where the immunity would be much better. Guess the dynamics change as time goes on..

[Ellestar]

thats my main beef with paladins they are so overpowerd in GROUP pvp its insane, but since not many people play paladins as backup healers you dont see this issue much but hell one day people will understand and maybe they will respec for PvP battlegrounds and such.
They're not only healers, they get a cleanse that dispels CC spells. It's always a good idea to have 2 classes with dispel in a PvP group. So, alliance gets a pally dispell basically for free (in addition to an invincible backup healer), and horde should use something like 2 priests for that.
IMHO pally+priest is always better than 2 priests in a PvP group. Not to mention that pally can work as a tank in instances. Maybe he's not as good tank as a warrior, but so what? One free spot in a PvP group is more important than a PvE efficiency.

[Ei]

pallys counter almost everything

[Doodle]

this is kinda true, with full intell spirit plate ( WICH IS NOT EASY TO FIND) i can heal pretty damn good, one flaw is i dont have a good flash heal like the priest has, so i cant heal fast enough sometimes and i also cant regen good enough, but im 10 times harder to kill

but theres no chance in hell i can replace a priest, wont happen =)

[voodoochile78]

A DPS of 185, like that screenshot shows, is higher than my level 46 rogue's. That isn't right. You shouldn't get the best armor in the game, 3-5 free lives, and 100 free gold pieces, AND be able to do even comparable damage to a rogue.

[Doodle]

a dps of 185? where =)

[voodoochile78]

a dps of 185? where =)

You didn't notice the GIGANTIC screenshot over on page 2?

[oupupu]

saying i don't know how to play my class is bs....unless u can tell me how a warrior is supose to beat a paladin cuz i don't see how i can...

[LyonHeart]

Hmm warriors deal out more damage with their skills/talents.. then paladins and also warrios have much higher hit points.. My ms war at lvl 41 has 2500 life and i have not lost to a priest/paladin 1v1 or alliance ganking me, it just just the hardest class to take down the paladin.

[Doodle]

a dps of 185? where =)

You didn't notice the GIGANTIC screenshot over on page 2?

that is not his DPS :roll: all you know that can be a string of critical hits

you got to be fighting for a while to calculate your dps

[Doodle]

saying i don't know how to play my class is bs....unless u can tell me how a warrior is supose to beat a paladin cuz i don't see how i can...

let him use his cooldown skills, runa way when he shields, come back and kill him round 2

thats how you beat him as a warrior, sorry you just cant beat a paladin if he uses his abillitys, either 1. he fucked up 2. you got lucky
but running away as he shields and uses his abillity, then come back after your regen your health is a win

or you can try that stun, ms execute thingy i wrote about, but dont get your hopes up

[Tlear]

Paladins are a great main or backup healer in pvp if your consists of warriors, hunters other paladins, maybe high sta warlocks. You can sortof heal caster but you need to start healing before they take dmg or they will die. In zergs I usually just spam heal on cold mages if they start aoeing since it is very common for some to die before I can select and cast 2.5 sec heal. PWS and Flash are huge bonuses if you can keep yourself safe. So basicly Priests are great in zergs where you can just stand behind your line and heal in peace. Paladins are good in small fights were people will get to you no matter what.

I liked the comment about free dispeller. Yup its true, but guess what Shaman has? PURGE. And what happens when alliance priests gets purged of PWS and Inner Fire? BTW other defense mechanisms that get owned by purge:Ice block, ice barrier, mana shield, all blessings, all potions including invulnerability pots, warlock shield, renew, rejuvenation

[Hogart]

I liked the comment about free dispeller. Yup its true, but guess what Shaman has? PURGE. And what happens when alliance priests gets purged of PWS and Inner Fire? BTW other defense mechanisms that get owned by purge:Ice block, ice barrier, mana shield, all blessings, all potions including invulnerability pots, warlock shield, renew, rejuvenation

Aint it sexy when you think about it? :)

[Rhade]

Yes but can you purge CC spells off of allies? No you cannot, and that is the difference they are talking about. Purge is a great OFFENSEIVE dispell, but we are talking about not only the paladin's decent melee damage, but how critical they can be in group situations as well. Afterall if this game was sorely about 1v1 fights, then it would most likely become World of Roguecraft, because a good rogue that gets the jump on someone and plays it smart, will most likely win the fight.

[Selm]

Can someone explain to me the difference between a Pala shielding and running around ( normal speed ) and a fucking shaman dropping earthbind, forming, and completeing leaving your radar? Don't both accomplish the same bullshit? People are pissed because Pala's "shield and run" meanwhile Shamans in their side Toem/Form/Run. What's the fucking difference? Don't say Pala can heal cuz so can a Sham when he's fucking 60 miles from me.

[jobanaaa]

And when Warrior jumps on rogue, most likely he gonna win, not rogue. ^^

[Ralrra]

When a pally's abilities (shields, Lay on Hands, etc.) are all refreshed, yeah they seem overpowered as hell. But it's not like their abilities will be refreshed for every single fight. When their abilities are on timer, a Pally goes down as easily as anyone else, to pretty much any class.

[Tlear]

I know what they are talking in tems of cleanse, I spam it all the time. Purge is extremely useful in grp fights as it is in 1on1 just assist with it and crucial class like priest drops like a rock.

[kyliejennings]

Can someone explain to me the difference between a Pala shielding and running around ( normal speed ) and a fucking shaman dropping earthbind, forming, and completeing leaving your radar? Don't both accomplish the same bullshit? People are pissed because Pala's "shield and run" meanwhile Shamans in their side Toem/Form/Run. What's the fucking difference? Don't say Pala can heal cuz so can a Sham when he's fucking 60 miles from me.

you can still shoot the shaman with arrows if your a hunter and still nuke the shaman (priest, mage, warlock, druid) aswell u can kill the totem.

pally u cant do anything when he shileds.

[Selm]

you can still shoot the shaman with arrows if your a hunter and still nuke the shaman (priest, mage, warlock, druid) aswell u can kill the totem.

pally u cant do anything when he shileds.

As a Pala if your stuns down it's difficult considering we have no range. Sometimes a run pot will do the trick to an extent but that's it.

[kyliejennings]

As a Pala if your stuns down it's difficult considering we have no range. Sometimes a run pot will do the trick to an extent but that's it.

well this is considering pally is played like i think it should be played as a backup healer, so why a paladin would want to run into earthbind is beyond me. its also group pvp im sure a pally can find someone else to kill.

[Firecrak]

Wow...real logic going on here...lets see...someone drops an earthbind. Considering 3/4 of the classes in WoW have range of some sort....kill it. If you are a paladin, sucks to be you, hit it. At the moment frost shock is a little bit overpowered, but nothing you can't fix with a good dose of up close and personal to the shaman.

When a paladin pops immunity...they usually aren't using it to get away. And if they are, its usually to kite you to thier team. If they are solo, and pop immunity, you only need back off them and try bandage (altho this doesn't work if they pop the 50% melee speed reduce invul). All in all, 2 invuls and a full heal for no mana (yes I know the reuse timer is long, so is retaliation, you don't see too many rogues complaining a warrior can beat them every 30 mins) is just too much.

[LyonHeart]

Yes but can you purge CC spells off of allies? No you cannot, and that is the difference they are talking about. Purge is a great OFFENSEIVE dispell, but we are talking about not only the paladin's decent melee damage, but how critical they can be in group situations as well. Afterall if this game was sorely about 1v1 fights, then it would most likely become World of Roguecraft, because a good rogue that gets the jump on someone and plays it smart, will most likely win the fight.

This game is about 1v1 as much as it is ffa, raid etc... you couldn't be more wrong about the rogues, even if they get gank strike. Thanks for the input thougj.

[oupupu]

So your saying your 41 warrior has never lsot a 1v1 vs a paladin......tell me your secret please cuz i can't figure anything out vs them.....and the person who said to use the ms execute thing.....only work if the paladin is a dumbass.....

my warrior isn't geared to max for his lvl but that shouldn't stop me from killing paladins lower lvl then me....

47 undead warrior

3000 hp
2900 ac

fiery war axe
91-141 2.9 dps

proc firball 150-190


just wanna know how to win vs a paladin :(

[Inconsiderable]

And when Warrior jumps on rogue, most likely he gonna win, not rogue. ^^

Thats somewhat true. You beat any newb rogue using overpower. A rogues that knows his class beats the crap out of you leaving you completely helpless to a slow death to poison.

[Selm]

well this is considering pally is played like i think it should be played as a backup healer, so why a paladin would want to run into earthbind is beyond me. its also group pvp im sure a pally can find someone else to kill.

Why would you bench such a powerful char and whats to stop them from being offensive and healing? I juggle both constantly.

As far as "running into earthbind" its usually something they place near you..I eman you can get by it but if your timers are on which they usually can be when it's hectic, you can end up giving up on catching them pretty easily. If your a Pala anyway. I'm not complaining I just see such a lack of ingenuity in most posts on horde side as to how to deal with them.

Put a Prot/Holy Pala in back - yah, but you must be forgetting about Retri?

[Selm]

At the moment frost shock is a little bit overpowered.

frost shocks a joke dispel it

[Doodle]

frostshock ws rogues and warriors is hell, vs a paladin its just damage

btw wolf form and earthbind > shield for ESCAPING battle

you can always run in the same speed as the paladin you know... hehe

[LyonHeart]

So your saying your 41 warrior has never lsot a 1v1 vs a paladin......tell me your secret please cuz i can't figure anything out vs them.....and the person who said to use the ms execute thing.....only work if the paladin is a dumbass.....

my warrior isn't geared to max for his lvl but that shouldn't stop me from killing paladins lower lvl then me....

47 undead warrior

3000 hp
2900 ac

fiery war axe
91-141 2.9 dps

proc firball 150-190


just wanna know how to win vs a paladin :(
Ok well you need to build a style of playing and get a sense of timing your hits againts things like paladins.. and warlocks inv shield.

First off i have lost to a paladin 1v1(41-43 around don't really pay much attention to recall) but i have also beat the same ones, thus it's harder to explain then "act".
Ok i'll give this a shot, dps is a calculation of your damage.. the way i built my war is two handed sword i look at the speed first anything under 2.9 is what i accept, as i also like the sword mastery affect. My warrior is a arms built, so a crit overpower(which is crit gauarante pretty much) in a duel againts a paladin or any other class, sets them back to pretty much a heal. Thus first off try to get in a charge if possible and rend/hamstring( It depends on the situation rage gained etc to do the hamstring). Then switch to berserker stance look for a whirl wind. They will go in keep hiting them as they get about 60% life if you generate 30 rage by then use ms or try to hit the ms its better if you see any sign of them casting a spell.. if you require more rage use bloodrage to achieve the ms ( As you can see its hard to explain then to play it out). Thats how I do it to their first inv shield as i g2g... send me a pm we can talk.

[mediocre]

When a pally's abilities (shields, Lay on Hands, etc.) are all refreshed, yeah they seem overpowered as hell. But it's not like their abilities will be refreshed for every single fight. When their abilities are on timer, a Pally goes down as easily as anyone else, to pretty much any class.


Overpowered abilities on timers are still overpowered

[Ralrra]

When a pally's abilities (shields, Lay on Hands, etc.) are all refreshed, yeah they seem overpowered as hell. But it's not like their abilities will be refreshed for every single fight. When their abilities are on timer, a Pally goes down as easily as anyone else, to pretty much any class.


Overpowered abilities on timers are still overpowered

By that logic Vanish and Evasion would be perfectly balanced if they had no cooldown at all, which we all know isn't true.

[oupupu]

ok i'll tell u what i do and tell me how bad it is and what not....

start with charge then ham and rend, demo shout then battle shout.
by then already hit him several times so hes at about 3/4 or less hp.
get a ms out asap and keep bashing him, he uses his first invulv shield so i run away get out of combat and wait for his shield to go down so i can charge again, by now i have about 3/4 or less hp.
rinse repeat untill his second shield.
he has healed to full hp from his second shield now and i'm at 1/2 or less hp
managed to get him to 1/4 hp then he uses LOH while i'm at like 1/20 health now.....this is where i hamstring(have improved hamstring) run away get out of combat and charge him again manage to get him to maybe 3/4 or 1/2 if i get a lucky crit then i die....

he heals a couple times after his second shield, but i either have ms or if not enuff rage i pummel his heal.

might just be my timing but it gets really frustrating :(

[kyliejennings]

Why would you bench such a powerful char and whats to stop them from being offensive and healing? I juggle both constantly.

As far as "running into earthbind" its usually something they place near you..I eman you can get by it but if your timers are on which they usually can be when it's hectic, you can end up giving up on catching them pretty easily. If your a Pala anyway. I'm not complaining I just see such a lack of ingenuity in most posts on horde side as to how to deal with them.

Put a Prot/Holy Pala in back - yah, but you must be forgetting about Retri?

lol dont all the palandins complain they got "no dps" every post is like that :P but all kidding aside. i look at it this way, can you heal more dmg then you can output, if you can then i really think healing dmg classes makes more sense then to waste ur mana on self buffs and all that other crap you would use while in the thick of battle. its the same reason why shadowspec priest are stupid. they are the best healers in the game yet they want single target dps when they can heal and make the fight last that much longer.

im in no way telling you how to play the class its just what I would do if i was a paladin.

and btw we deal with paladins just fine cus they run in thinking they are superman. like i said to have a backup healer to always die last is a very nice deal to having the shaman die without any kinda defence vs it. 5 people focus on a shaman = dead, 5 people focus on a paladin takes a hell of a lot longer to kill

[vukers]

Wow, didn't know this thread was gonna grow this long. But back to my original question,

I see that there are a lot of people here with paladin experience. Please help me figure this out.

Why do all the paladins claim that their DPS is low?

I am a lvl 40 warrior with a whirlwind sword, and +stam, +str gear. All the gear is around lvl 34-38.

Now, my hits on an even con mob are for 140-160 each, with battle shout on. I am POSITIVE that paladins do at least that much damage with a similar weapon. Please do not say that warriors do more damage by using their abilities, because there really aren't that many damage increasing warrior abilties.

You have heroic strike which does so little damage for the rage it costs.
You have the occasional overpower, which is probably less reliable than a proc.
You have whirlwind with a 10 second cooldown and costs a LOT of rage.

Can any paladins truthfully say that they have low damage compared to a warrior? Because I know that using the same exact weapon, paladins do at least the same damage.

-this post is about damage. in a group setting, the warrior abilities and their functions is where it shines. but that is not what this post is about.

[Doodle]

ok i'll tell u what i do and tell me how bad it is and what not....

start with charge then ham and rend, demo shout then battle shout.
by then already hit him several times so hes at about 3/4 or less hp.
get a ms out asap and keep bashing him, he uses his first invulv shield so i run away get out of combat and wait for his shield to go down so i can charge again, by now i have about 3/4 or less hp.
rinse repeat untill his second shield.
he has healed to full hp from his second shield now and i'm at 1/2 or less hp
managed to get him to 1/4 hp then he uses LOH while i'm at like 1/20 health now.....this is where i hamstring(have improved hamstring) run away get out of combat and charge him again manage to get him to maybe 3/4 or 1/2 if i get a lucky crit then i die....

he heals a couple times after his second shield, but i either have ms or if not enuff rage i pummel his heal.

might just be my timing but it gets really frustrating :(

use first aid, its vital

as far as damage goes, yes i can honestly say warriors outdamage me, thats no Bulshitting, BUT if i get a couple of crits and seal of command procs in a row (wich is rare) i do alot of burst damage, maybe thats what you are seeing sometimes? as i stated before, a paladin attacking is pure luck, we got no attack abilitys all we do is hit you with auto attack and hope to crit/proc for damage

but still as a warrior you will loose to pally's often, im going warrior in retail so im in no way biased twords the paladin even though i play one in CB atm

just remember without our shields we are nothing, i know its frustrating but we can basicly only beat you every 5 min, if you take away our shields the paladin class will just get destroyed even an increased timer will devestate it, making paladins the new warriors

[Selm]

yah i really dont get the complaining about dps thing
i think they use the wrong seals and the wrong weapons
i dont have a key for anything other then seal of sader on my interface theres no competition

[Rhade]

Yes but can you purge CC spells off of allies? No you cannot, and that is the difference they are talking about. Purge is a great OFFENSEIVE dispell, but we are talking about not only the paladin's decent melee damage, but how critical they can be in group situations as well. Afterall if this game was sorely about 1v1 fights, then it would most likely become World of Roguecraft, because a good rogue that gets the jump on someone and plays it smart, will most likely win the fight.

This game is about 1v1 as much as it is ffa, raid etc... you couldn't be more wrong about the rogues, even if they get gank strike. Thanks for the input thougj.

As a rogue, as long as I play it smart, I can take down any class 1v1 (With the exception of Paladin and Shaman SOMETIMES). If I run away after the first invuln bandaged and restealth then come back for round 2 unless they have LoH active I can almost always win the fight. Shaman are quite difficult to fight because they can keep me at a good range, but if I save kick for heals and make sure both weapons ave crippling poisen on them I can win about 50% of the time. Also you could not be more wrong about this being about 1v1. This game is balanced off of groupvsgroup/raidvsraid combat.

[Selm]

rogues are elite ive had major problems with some of them if they chain their skills right
id take something by a guy named lyonheart w/a grain of salt

[vukers]

Doodle: A warrior might outdamage you because he has a better 2h weapon. But if you were to both use the exact same gear, then you should be doing the same dmg per hit.

Now u add the buffs and seals, and warriors add their buff and seals. What I am saying is that their buffs and seals make Paladin damage hit just as hard as warriors, if not more. You might wait for a proc or crit to do the extra damage, but where is warrior damage magically coming from?

It is just unsettling to see paladins, who should do less damage, do similar damage, wear the same armor, heal, buff, and shield also.

Of course, warriors have to admit that they have much better attacking abilities. I won't deny that. Demoral shout, snares, spell interruption, disarm, etc. And also better aggro management in PvE.

But again, that is not the issue here. I'm not saying that warriors should beat paladins. I'm saying that warriors melee should outdamage them.

[Inconsiderable]

Yea Paladins deal no damage and they are seriously underpowered:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=30400&p=1&tmp=1#post30400

Read.

[neurotic]

Don't forget their free mount, saving them 100g.

I almost died to a reckoning 2h proccing paladin. He was 53 I was 59, I was killing myself as a rogue critting him. He had a HUGE 2h weap with a proc AND Seal of Command. I gave him more free attacks than he had normal attacks. To top it off, he was nub too. He coulda beat me if he realized his Hammer of Justice recharged within our 2min+ fight.

Just my 2 cents, from someone who's played paladin since release now.... Free mount, fine, but that's not exclusive to Paladin. Warlocks gets the same, somehow nobody has a problem with that. And both Shaman and Druids get travelform... and you know what? I'd trade my free (ugly) warhorse for shaman travelform any day, just for the fact that it's usable in fight.

Anyway, the real question was paladin dps. And it's a tricky question actually. My paladin is 2h retrib/holy specced (meaning, damage specced), and I measure up fairly equal to warriors in damage over time. There are classes that easily outdamage me without breaking a sweat, but those classes have major weaknesses paladins doesn't.

Paladin is in my eyes (correctly specced) the strongest class in the game now. It would be very easy to justify a paladin nerf, but at the same time, it's a fact of any game that one class will have to be the best, you can't get it 100% balanced. For that reason, I tend to put my thumbs down for the nerf-criers, simlpy because I recon its better policy to boost the classes that fall behind, rather than strapping down the classes leading the race. In the course of any MMORPG, the best and worst class will circle, one year from now, paladin might be a class nobody would touch with a stick.

[Selm]

Yea Paladins deal no damage and they are seriously underpowered:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=30400&p=1&tmp=1#post30400

Read.

why the hell would you read that forum
its full of the general public spewing bullshit 24-7
why do you think ppl post on guildsites instead

[Sintor]

Yea Paladins deal no damage and they are seriously underpowered:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=30400&p=1&tmp=1#post30400

Read.

why the hell would you read that forum
its full of the general public spewing bullshit 24-7
why do you think ppl post on guildsites instead

I thought people posted here for the sexy banner at the top. Foolish me.

[Inconsiderable]

Actually its some Paladins claiming to have a more than decent damage output: "You can hits someone once with a big 2hander, cast Ray, Holy shock, Stun, bomb, swing, swing, and player is dead before stun wears off."
Hell, I know that Blizz forum is full of ****, because I was a warcraft3 player from RoC to TFT. But actually this post doesnt look stupid to me. Paladins are easy to play, like shamans. But a skilled player can do alot more. Engineering gives them snare, another stun and decent damage - depending on the trinklets they get.
2000 instant damage and some stun with a nice holy dmg proc or +40% attackspeed and a proc weapon sounds pretty good to me.

[neurotic]

Do rememeber that most trinkets have a cooldown between equipping and using tho, so you're mostly limited to 2 trinkets a fight. And Engineer is by no means limited to paladins only :)

[Kakarot]

Paladin is in my eyes (correctly specced) the strongest class in the game now. It would be very easy to justify a paladin nerf, but at the same time, it's a fact of any game that one class will have to be the best, you can't get it 100% balanced.
Remember Paladin is Alliance only (!), to make a class strongest which can be selected only by one faction and not by all factions, is perhaps not the best idea, if you want a game balanced as possible.

I don't say nerf the Paladin, cause nobody wants to be nerfed, so give other classes abilities to be a good/real counterpart.

[Selm]

I'd really like to hear beta players thought on how strong Pala actually is at level 60 versus other classes. I hear it balances out at end game big time. I am also beginning to see other classes cast things they get that make me really beleive this. The mages Ice Barrier? Warlocks rezzing themselves? Paladin has that level of shit to cast early game, so I think people spaz out because they don't realize how things are long term. Also Shamans kick major ass Ithought maybe if they gave them a version of bloodlust like from wc3 to buff them up a little H/A might be more on par.

[Doodle]

as someone who playes both at "end game"

paladins is a class i wont be in retail

shaman dont need any more help =P

[LyonHeart]

Well it might be hard or impossible to beat a same lvl paladin as a warrior if your not a MS built. Depends on your dueling style, theirs and how much experience you have dueling the class.

[Firecrak]

Yea Paladins deal no damage and they are seriously underpowered:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=30400&p=1&tmp=1#post30400

Read.

What are you crapping on about? its a thread about how paladins should use engineering...right. Whats that got to do with a paladin being able to do the same damage as a warrior while wielding/wearing the same equipment?

MS has little noticeable diffrence, except when it crits with Impale...and then you see fireworks. Blessing of Protection and Divine Protection, combined with LoH, make MS useless unless you get a very good crit in.