Hunters: 0/21/30 from a mixed PVE/PVP standpoint

[Caingarl]

WARNING: Long, boring theorycraft post ahead.

I originally specced 0/21/30 because I began to PVP a lot, and wasting mana and time casting trueshot aura every time I spawned in a battleground was getting a little old. After reading a lot of the… well, let’s call it propaganda on the WoW hunter board about how 5/31/15 is amazing DPS in comparison and only a complete dimwit would go 0/21/30 for raiding, I expected my DPS to be trash.

That was many months ago. In between when I first specced 0/21/30 and now, not only has my gear gotten better, but I also have tried to go back to 5/31/15 and realized that I A) hated it, and B) felt like my DPS was going down.

Recently (a few months back) I respecced to a 21/30 build that focused on PVP, the biggest change was that I sacrificed a few points in the survival tree so that I could get entrapment and I picked up imp conc shot again (I still don’t like this talent because the random 20% chance never seems to happen when I’m praying for it to happen, and I always proc it when it really makes no difference anyway). I mainly did this because I was heavy into group PVP for a while, and entrapment is a huge help for that.

I’m now considering respeccing again because I’m finding that in some of the naxx fights the extra 10% mana efficiency would go a long way towards sustained dps, and even with +8% hit I’m still missing the mob (nothing makes my blood boil more than having my aimed shot miss). This is my current build:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=VZtVohtZIV0VRMux

I focused a lot on group PVP spells as you can see, while still picking up a few ‘get out of jail free’ talents like deterrence and counterattack. If you’ve never specced deterrence I highly recommend you check it out, I don’t think I could go back to not having it. There are far too many “oh ****” times where it has saved my life (the blinks on noth are what come to mind immediately, when I crit an autoshot right after a blink). Counterattack, however useful, I’m thinking I can do without.

Here is the build I’m looking at speccing:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=VZqVohtZI0mVkrux

Now, I get a few new things from this build, and drop a few things from my last. Losing entrapment is no biggie, because while useful, I’m not using it as much as I probably should be. The biggest gain is efficiency in the MM tree, I’m giving up imp conc for it, but even though I do PVP often I think this is one time where I need to put my raid DPS above my PVP performance. On fights like patchwerk, I need to be drinking as little as possible, so that extra 10% goes a long way. I also pick up +2% hit from surefooted which will ensure that I never miss (I decided to not go +3%, because with gear I will likely never need more than +2% hit, and that extra 5% in trap mastery will help resists).

The imp wing clip never hurts, but I’m sort of wondering how much it will help me.

The things that I have been toying with and I’m having a hard time deciding are:
• Imp wing clip: is it worth it? I’m considering dropping 2 points in savage strikes and 2 in deflection instead.
• Is counterattack more useful than an extra point in trap mastery? I think so.
• Should I instead of imp wing clip spec into entrapment? It’s still one of the most powerful group PVP spells out there, and sometimes it does save you.

What do you all think? For those of you specced 0/21/30 in a raiding guild, what are your builds? For those of you specced 0/21/30 for PVP, what talents have you found worth it?

I’m looking for a build that will maximize my PVE DPS while not completely screwing myself in PVP. I have 487 agility without LR, with LR I’m up to 560 agi and 1560 attack power with AOTH. My gear is here: http://ctprofiles.net/6271 .

[Kaeto]

You are completely out of your mind to even begin to consider a spec without 5/5 entrapment. And why would you even think about trap mastery without entrapment? Not that I'm sure it even works, it was broken the one time I tried it.

IAOTH is utterly worthless, it does nothing but fuck up your cycles and in the end probably reduces your DPS from you trying to work in extra shots. 0/31/20 is always the best spec for PVP, it has vastly superior frontload, and is almost always better than 0/21/30 for PVE. Also, trueshot is an awesome group buff - if it hits just one rogue or warrior, it will put your total DPS contribution ahead of survival no matter what.

IMO, the best PVE spec is something like this (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=mZiVohthtIV0Voh)

[Caingarl]

I disagree that it has better frontload, because I get about 4.5% higher crit from 0/21/30. Maybe it has more consistency, but the extra 4.5% crit and much more attack power from LR is a tradeoff I'm willing to take.

I have no idea what you're talking about with imp aoth fucking up the rotation. You realize that if imp aoth procs it takes down your aimed shot casting time, right? It doesn't hurt the rotation one bit, it just speeds it up for 6 seconds.

Regardless, since you've left we have been having a pure hunter group for DPS with GOA totem, so as long as one of us has TSA, the point of raid dps is pretty much moot.

As far as entrapment goes, it's not something I use enough for it to be worth it. It doesn't follow the hunter (it was changed last patch), so it's not like it's something I can use to get away from people with any consistency.

[Stickx]

If I were to go anything past 20 points in survival it would probably look something like this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=VZtVohtZcibVohux

I don't know, I've tried LR before and after seeing my multishot crits about 300 less than what they used to be it kind of despressed me. Maybe I didn't have the gear at the time? Who knows. The 3% crit is nice, but LR did not significantly raise my AP enough to warrant losing RWS and Barrage for it. Counterattack? Who cares, I have feign/trap, scatter shot, wing clip, my pvp trinket, etc to get out of certain situations. Even lately it doesn't really matter because I'm usually always pvping with a priest since we have 2+ grinding for 14 as I'm grinding for 13.

If you wanted to go LR with a PVE emphasis I'd probably go a little something like this. http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=VZqVohtZIV0qohux

Still, http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=VZgVohthtcwbVoh for life. Get out of here caingarl you leech! =)

[Chanky]

You are completely out of your mind to even begin to consider a spec without 5/5 entrapment.

Tell me why you rate 5/5 entrapment so high, is it worth the 5p for improving the frost traps effect or am i missing something here?


orly kthxbai

[Kaeto]

IAOTH fucks up your rotation becuase it doesn't change the cooldown times of aimed or multi. If you don't change your timing, the only DPS increase you get from it is the shorter aimed cast time, you won't get any extra autoshots off. If you do change your timing, you usually fuck it up a bit and end up back where you were or behind. Increased attack speed is really shitty for hunters unless it puts you into a better cycle, which is only useful when it's predictable or constant.

Taking IWC over entrapment is just silly. I love IWC, but having it and not entrapment is just not sensible. It's also still very easy to use to get away from people, not that that is its main use. It also has some raiding applications, IWC really doesn't have any. The only time IWC does something for you that entrapment doesn't do better is when you can't FD/trap.

Math says assuming you're leeching trueshot, and have all the buffs that benefit it, are in a fight where you stand still the entire time, and perform your cycle perfectly, survival gives a 1-2% damage increase. As you deviate from that, marks pulls even or ahead. 1-2% is pretty insignificant compared to all the other factors that influence your damage.

In PVP where you normally won't be leeching TSA or having buffs, marks gives about a 3-4% advantage for aimed + multi + auto, and about a 6-7% increase to multi + auto. Survival is only 5-6% frontload increase, and a 6%ish multi + auto increase, over not having any 21+ point talents at all. The difference is enormous.

[jess]

why do you guys all have monster slaying?
it doesnt really help in naxx anyway, unless you really need that extra 3% for grand widow.

take 2 parry and another point for something else imo.




im really bored =[

[kabang~]

im pretty much your second spec cept instead of monster/human slaying im 5 reflect and instead of imp wingclip i went with entrapment,and i went full surefooted intead of traps. I like the build quite a bit high dmg without giveing up too much in the way to pvp viability.